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[Neoleo2143]

I would prefer that developers not have to walk on eggshells in order to design a game. The moment they change this, people will find another detail to nitpick. The cycle continues. It'll never end. What has to happen is that people need to understand that games (and media in general) will never be able to pander and relate to every single possibility of identity and culture of the player, and that it is okay. The fact that pokemon asks you "Are you a boy or a girl" should not trigger you into thinking that you have been excluded. Sure, more options wouldn't hurt. But goddamn, where do we draw the line? Will we just complain about it forever until every single game just ditches humanity entirely as a subject because they couldn't find a way to include every single gender, lack of gender, identity, species, or kin in dialogue and character creators? Everything is replaced with robots or celestial beings that have no true form?

Oh wait, that would exclude me! Nope, don't do that! That's not okay! That would be outdated!

I think it's mostly people expressing concern really. The world changes and media changes to reflect it. Some do it faster than others and societal pressures pull the rest. We're in the middle of that right now.

 

[ScraftyDevil]

Well it actually would take some more effort since in this case it's being used to select your player model. As other have said, unless you're asking them to make a full blown character creator, it is the most sensible option to give people.

Eh, I don't think it would take an extraordinary amount of resources to create an androgynous character model, especially considering the amount of work that goes into the Pokémon themselves each generation.

Like I said, if fangames with literally zero budget can do it, I see no reason why the creators of one of the most profitable series on the planet can't finagle something.

 

[Fliesen]

Well it actually would take some more effort since in this case it's being used to select your player model. As other have said, unless you're asking them to make a full blown character creator, it is the most sensible option to give people.

on a previous page, someone posted a fan-mod(?) that offered a very elegant solution.
"Boy" (gets access to pre-made boy character models) "girl" (gets acccess to pre-made girl character models), "neither" (gets access to all character models)

i guess(?) that'd work out rather nicely.

What do you mean painting a bedroom ?

If you mean about color preferences or whatever, then it is because the person asking is expecting, wrongfully, a different style depending on your gender.

But asking if you're a boy or a girl to give your character a biological sex sounds more like about biological sex indeed rather than your gender. Now that's my conception. Just keep in mind that I also agree that they should have at the very least a 3rd choice and more customisation for the characters, including no clothing limitation.

do you really think the Professor wants to know if you got a penis or a vagina?

 

[Platy]

No there aren't. They're all gramatically incorrect ways (not even just coloquiallism) that could not and should not be in the game

...have you ever wrote in a gender neutral way ?
Like outside of social media with it's crazy "X" and "@" ... you can hide pronoums, you can use plural third person, you can say "this person is an artist" instead of "she is an artist", you can do LOTS of stuff that are very grammatically correct.

And worst case scenario, lots of masculine versions also works as gender neutral.

 

[BlueBadger]

it's a kids game

Ehh.. I don't really know about that. I think that might be their target audience. But even they must know that us 90's adults (and older, of course) are a massive demographic for the franchise..

Regarding the question in the OP, I too would love to see some kind of custom character creator instead. But I do find it pretty unlikely to happen anytime soon. Would be legit, though, even without today's changes in gender awareness. I always spend so much time in those character creation menus.

 

[Seloth]

I would prefer that developers not have to walk on eggshells in order to design a game. The moment they change this, people will find another detail to nitpick. The cycle continues. It'll never end. What has to happen is that people need to understand that games (and media in general) will never be able to pander and relate to every single possibility of identity and culture of the player, and that it is okay. The fact that pokemon asks you "Are you a boy or a girl" should not trigger you into thinking that you have been excluded. Sure, more options wouldn't hurt. But goddamn, where do we draw the line? Will we just complain about it forever until every single game just ditches humanity entirely as a subject because they couldn't find a way to include every single gender, lack of gender, identity, species, or kin in dialogue and character creators? Everything is replaced with robots or celestial beings that have no true form?

Oh wait, that would exclude me! Nope, don't do that! That's not okay! That would be outdated!

Oh there's that slippery slope!

You're going beyond the scope of reason.

 

[GinoFelino]

Wow you could phrase that to not be or sound so passive aggressive. It would be more believable that you weren't being hostile.

Sorry you were triggered is the least understanding 'apology' ever conceived.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

That's all well and good but I still don't see it as an issue. Playing as a different gender has absolutley no affect on my enjoyment of a game and I fail to see how it would affect someone in that way.

Like I said, great if they add more options but I think people would just be better off not caring that much about your avatar in a video game.

You are right, to you it probably doesn't seem like a big issue, and it will likely never affect your enjoyment of a game one way or the other. To someone who is gender fluid, or who doesn't conform to traditional gender norms, it may very well bother them.

Honestly though, they probably just accept things the way they are. They are used to being unrepresented in the media they consume. That doesn't make it OK that there is no way for them to be represented.

 

[mollipen]

It basically asks your gender and there is only two choices. I fail see to novelty in it. I know that you can pick one or the other but what if you associate with neither or both? I just find it lame that it is asking you if you are a boy or girl in the first place and implying that you are either.

If you associate with both, then picking one or the other shouldn't matter, because either one will represent a part of you. If you associate with neither, then first I don't believe you, and second you should have equal success at role-playing either choice.

The best option, in my mind, is for any game that allows for character customization to let you pick either starting body and then allow you to wear clothing items from either gender.

 

[Chastten]

I'm perfectly fine with the way it is. It's a game aimed at kids first and foremost, why complicate things for them?

It's a bit weird that having the choice between boy/girl is considered offensive in 2016.

 

[MicH]

I don't really think SuMo is bad or good for using the question but I do hope that at some point they do what Animal Crossing New Leaf did and let you use all the clothes no matter what you pick.

The dude clothes options suck, man

They should absolutely do this and I'm kinda surprised they haven't done it yet. Hopefully SM does it

 

[Aters]

Do you mean something like:

Are you a boy or a girl?
I'm a MAN!

 

[Nepenthe]

I'm perfectly fine with the way it is. It's a game aimed at kids first and foremost, why complicate things for them?

Do you really think kids are so stupid that they can't understand three options or Pokemon Go's character creator?

 

[Burgess_101]

I think the idea of wilfully excluding anyone just because of a perceived workload that would have to go into said idea is a disgusting one.

 

[chillybright]

There are "genderfluid" people that change their minds and identifying behaviors.

Some cultures also identify a third 'other' gender. India is the best example, people can choose a third gender called 'hijra', this is an umbrella term that covers true transgendered people, gay people, or those that simply wish to cross-dress. Their biological sex is still noted on their medical/government forms however, for obvious reasons.

Nonbinary people exist, those that don't strictly identify as man or woman.

Thanks for the info. However they seem to be too cultural dependent to have some unified options. Is the option "neither" be enough for all LGBT community to be identified with?

 

[GhostTrick]

do you really think the Professor wants to know if you got a penis or a vagina?

Well, yes, as any administration wants to know. Sure, the way you word it makes it sound weird (and I admit I actually laughed imagining the scene).

 

[Unfriendly TimeTraveler]

Never thought of it as the game asking me if I was one or the other. I always asked myself "what is the character in this game" I let my imagination choose what I am in the game. Never let reality choose for me.

I'm not opposed to a game allowing people to say neither but does look like it has some language problems.

I just don't think you should take it to heart when a game doesn't give you the option to pick other when the gender selection screen pops up.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

Also to the people talking about being offended. I don't feel like anyone here is being offended. OP said outdated, not scandalous or whatever.

Although I feel like the issue also lays down on the definition of that question: To me, it's about biological sex. To other people, it's about gender.

Well that's good then, i guess. I hope you also realize that the example you provided (driver's license) is a huge issue with intersexual people as well - as it's a document that is meant to provide "identification" but doesn't accurately describe what those people are / identify as.

Maybe try not to get as defensive, going all "what's next?! do you also want ... ", when someone's simply asking for things to be made more inclusive. Especially when it comes to video games, as they are super important to shaping how kids view the world.



get outta here with that crap. :/

Lol I'm sorry I triggered you again XD

I think both of your posts highlight the dissonance in the thread. I deal with racial issues more so than gender ones. So more of then than not, I'm educated with racial rhetoric and debate but I'm a complete stranger to gender issues.

I believe everyone should feel inclusive and I think the dissonance is that when you all talk about gender, we think about sex. I feel that sex isn't a debate. Its nature, it just is what it is. But you're both not talking about that.

I think a problem with society is that at least right now, Gender and Sex are intertwined at a societal level. That's why your license can't say other, so on so forth. So there's work to be done... A lot actually. We as humans seem to be evolving past gender norms and ideas but remember that youre fighting centuries of programming. Same as I fighting centuries of backwards thinking. So were all in this together really.

And the only thing I know for sure is that we adopted the world the way it is and only we have the opportunity to make it better when we leave it.

 

[ScraftyDevil]

I edited my post. You can force gender neutral talk in Spanish, but it sounds nothing like people usually talk. It sounds formal and verbose.

Eh, we're basically just arguing semantics now but I'll concede. Still, even if they decided it'd be impossible in Spanish, that doesn't stop them from implementing it in every other language and simply using the archaic masculine gender-neutral in Spanish, does it? It's a rather small hurdle to clear in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Salty Rice]

I really feel bad for the developers while im reading this thread. They did nothing wrong.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

I would prefer that developers not have to walk on eggshells in order to design a game. The moment they change this, people will find another detail to nitpick. The cycle continues. It'll never end. What has to happen is that people need to understand that games (and media in general) will never be able to pander and relate to every single possibility of identity and culture of the player, and that it is okay. The fact that pokemon asks you "Are you a boy or a girl" should not trigger you into thinking that you have been excluded. Sure, more options wouldn't hurt. But goddamn, where do we draw the line? Will we just complain about it forever until every single game just ditches humanity entirely as a subject because they couldn't find a way to include every single gender, lack of gender, identity, species, or kin in dialogue and character creators? Everything is replaced with robots or celestial beings that have no true form?

Oh wait, that would exclude me! Nope, don't do that! That's not okay! That would be outdated!

This is 100% how I feel about this. Which is funny because 2 years ago I would be agreeing with this thread. I guess I'm kinda glad I noticed that cycle, because that made me disappointed as hell

...have you ever wrote in a gender neutral way ?
Like outside of social media with it's crazy "X" and "@" ... you can hide pronoums, you can use plural third person, you can say "this person is an artist" instead of "she is an artist", you can do LOTS of stuff that are very grammatically correct.

And worst case scenario, lots of masculine versions also works as gender neutral.

You'd fall into repetition pretty quick that way. It would also sound terribly unnatural.

I really feel bad for the developers reading this thread. They did nothing wrong.

There aren't any, but if there were that's how I feel. They would never guess such innocent wording could be the focus of an outrage

 

[Neoleo2143]

Do you mean something like:

Are you a boy or a girl?
I'm a MAN!

I was thinking the thread was getting a bit too serious lol.

 

[groansey]

Greater costume and appearance customisation options for either gender would be welcome.

But no, a 'both' or 'neither' option would be confusing for kids and address 0.000001% of their audience. Not to mention problems with pronouns in the text.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Hey guys, I'm cool with the "neither" option too. I just think many people are going overboard with what they expected from a character creator, that's all.

 

[Im_So_Pringles]

Oh there's that slippery slope!

You're going beyond the scope of reason.

Beyond the scope of reason of 99.9999999% of Nintendo's established player base and target audience, sure.

Now, the scope of reason of many people who hang out on the internet and complain endlessly about such issues? Not so much.

I think the idea of wilfully excluding anyone just because of a perceived workload that would have to go into said idea is a disgusting one.

Bingo, bango, bongo. Case in point.

 

[Seloth]

I'm perfectly fine with the way it is. It's a game aimed at kids first and foremost, why complicate things for them?

It's a bit weird that having the choice between boy/girl is considered offensive in 2016.

It's a bit weird that you considered people were offended when nobody said that.

It's also not just a game for kids, even though they don't deserve any less than we do when it comes to this.

 

[Platy]

If you associate with both, then picking one or the other shouldn't matter, because either one will represent a part of you. If you associate with neither, then first I don't believe you, and second you should have equal success at role-playing either choice.

Care to explain why you don't believe in the person ?

Because it is sounding as hatefull as "I don't believe in trans people" or "i don't believe in bisexuals" which are also as common

You'd fall into repetition pretty quick that way. It would also sound terribly unnatural.

To be fair non binary people are not as commonly found in the streets either. And pokemon is a game that leads to repetition in lots of ways, so why not just one more ?

 

[NurseRedHeart]

Keeping it boy or girl is simple and it works. I'd rather have more different characters to choose from though.

Edit: BTW I always get both versions and have always picked the other character to experience the journey with the alternate visuals for my character. I even did this with Pokemon Go (through my personal cell and work cell)

 

[Desperado]

If you associate with both, then picking one or the other shouldn't matter, because either one will represent a part of you. If you associate with neither, then first I don't believe you, and second you should have equal success at role-playing either choice.

This seems to me to be similar to not believing bisexual people exist. Not in a 'gender=sexuality' way, but just in an 'unfounded position' way.

 

[E-flux]

Why would anyone think that this is offensive? If you truly think that you are not a male or a female then you probably have bigger things to worry about than the gender of your character in pokemon.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

Wow you could phrase that to not be or sound so passive aggressive. It would be more believable that you weren't being hostile.

Yeah, my fault. The internet triggers me to snap back whenever someone comes for me, its a behavior I'm trying to curb, promise. I just made a secondary joke because of the smiley they used Lol.

 

[OnimaruXLR]

I think this question presumes that the game expects you to answer based on some criteria other than "who do you want to play as?"

It's not like there's any law that says you can't pick whichever character you want. I know I usually decide based on the character design, so I chose the dude trainer in X/Y but the lady trainer in ORAS instead of old sock head

If they're going to add more in depth customization I get the feeling that something like different haircuts is going to come before nonbinary gender options

 

[.JayZii]

"What do you look like?"

 

[Trace]

Beyond the scope of reason of 99.9999999% of Nintendo's established player base and target audience, sure.

Now, the scope of reason of many people who hang out on the internet and complain endlessly about such issues? Not so much.

Ahh yes, it's only a small amount of people and they're all so whiny, why does it matter?

 

[JClarke]

This is stupid. "There's only two genders" well yeah cause that's kinda the norm

 

[MotionBlue]

Ehh.. I don't really know about that. I think that might be their target audience. But even they must know that us 90's adults (and older, of course) are a massive demographic for the franchise..

ESRB are esoteric, I wouldn't be surprised if recognizing non-standard orientations bumped up the rating. Nintendo is all about maximizing appeal, and maintaining that E for Everyone. This is all hearsay on my part though.

Edit: This thread is rapidly passing the even horizon.

 

[Neoleo2143]

This is stupid. "There's only two genders" well yeah cause that's kinda the norm

But is the Status Quo Good? That's the implicit side of the question.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

To be fair non binary people are not as commonly found in the streets either. And pokemon is a game that leads to repetition in lots of ways, so why not just one more ?

...? Verbal repetition makes a text a chore to read, that's not something you can afford

 

[Kinsei]

Kinda but It seems like it doesn't matter as Sun and Moon appears to be doing away with it.

If they go back to the "are you a boy or girl" choice in the future then they could just change it to say "Choose a trainer" or just "Choose one".

 

[Lord of Ostia]

ESRB are esoteric, I wouldn't be surprised if recognizing non-standard orientations bumped up the rating. Nintendo is all about maximizing appeal, and maintaining that E for Everyone. This is all hearsay on my part though.

Edit: This thread is rapidly passing the even horizon.

Why would having less restrictive customization or more inclusive language cause the ESRB rating to go up? That makes no sense.

 

[Desperado]

I really feel bad for the developers reading this thread. They did nothing wrong.

The OP is the least angry, attack-like 'critique' on a game/developer I've EVER read on GAF. And not once has a person in this thread speaking in favor of more inclusive options demonstrated outrage, offense, name-calling, or any other disrespectful speech.

 

[GhostTrick]

I really feel bad for the developers while im reading this thread. They did nothing wrong.

No one said they did. I don't see any pitchforks or whatsoever. Asking for something isn't blaming.

 

[Platy]

...? Verbal repetition makes a text a chore to read, that's not something you can afford

That is the difference of our points.

For me, excluding people is not something you can afford
For you, clean text gets preference over inclusion

 

[Neiteio]

What if the professor asks the following:

1) What do you look like?
2) Are you a "he" or a "she?"

Question #1 determines the model.
Question #2 determines pronoun.

 

[Seloth]

I really feel bad for the developers while im reading this thread. They did nothing wrong.

I feel bad for them too, especially if they were thinking of making their next game more inclusive. Some people here seem like they might attack them over it.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

That is the difference of our points.

For me, excluding people is not something you can afford
For you, clean text gets preference over inclusion

No, I was just making a case about how it'd sound horrible in Spanish, this conclusion is just downright malicious

 

[Captain Europe]

I would prefer that developers not have to walk on eggshells in order to design a game. The moment they change this, people will find another detail to nitpick. The cycle continues. It'll never end. What has to happen is that people need to understand that games (and media in general) will never be able to pander and relate to every single possibility of identity and culture of the player, and that it is okay. The fact that pokemon asks you "Are you a boy or a girl" should not trigger you into thinking that you have been excluded. Sure, more options wouldn't hurt. But goddamn, where do we draw the line? Will we just complain about it forever until every single game just ditches humanity entirely as a subject because they couldn't find a way to include every single gender, lack of gender, identity, species, or kin in dialogue and character creators? Everything is replaced with robots or celestial beings that have no true form?

Oh wait, that would exclude me! Nope, don't do that! That's not okay! That would be outdated!

Nice slippery slope!

Jesus, people are asking for a mere third non-binary gender option, not to marry pikachu in the game and have kids with it.

 

[SapphiCine]

Thanks for the info. However they seem to be too cultural dependent to have some unified options. Is the option "neither" be enough for all LGBT community to be identified with?

I can't say a "neither" option would please all but would be a step in the right direction.

 

[Seloth]

No, I was just making a case about how it'd sound horrible in Spanish, this conclusion is just downright malicious

I don't know any Spanish. Is there a word for neither/other?

 

[Platy]

No, I was just making a case about how it'd sound horrible in Spanish, this conclusion is just downright malicious

Than it is just another language that will receive more text than japanese and will be ignored by speedrunners.

If you want, Neiteo's idea of choosing a pronoum (he/she/neither) would help with the text flow for people who cares about it