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[feynoob]

And I am older than that

At least you are sane enough and didnt turn out like him.

 

[Astray]

Facebook/meta is how to lose money, but still be in the business.

They're losing money on metaverse stuff (and are facing issues with their ad revenue because of Apple's "privacy features"), but otherwise they are making money hand over fist.

 

[Topher]

People who talk about ringfencing or carving out the UK portion of Activision business, here is the #1 reason that will never ever happen: The financial loss would be insane!

Giphy's pricetag went from $400m to $53m!!!!

You mean Meta couldn't just "carve out" UK from Giphy?

 

[Ar¢tos]

All those websites promising "hot daddies near you" and in the end GAF was the place to look for them...

 

[Astray]

You men Meta couldn't just "carve out" UK from Giphy?

Phil Spencer will surely succeed where the Zuck failed.

 

[splattered]

Depends what you are talking about. Like the Sages review conspiracy theory. I don't think that's true at all. Nor is Florians claims on Microsoft dumping the UK to get what they want.

What I'm actually wondering if those individuals will stay with us if they are wrong.

Edit: When it comes to being wrong Florian was proven wrong on multiple occasions. He just censors everything that disagrees or educates him. I believe someone recently did that.

He must be a Jason Schreier alt account

 

[Pollux]

MS should use the money they pay their shills for hiring game developers full time instead of that 18 months contractor nonsense.

This is insane. It's YOUR studio, you make the damn rules, if 18 months is disruptive....change the rules, you don't have to go through an act of Congress or something, you're a corporation, just change the rules to make this shit work.

Or, simpler, just hire people, pay them, give them solid benefits, and treat them like actual people and not cogs. But, that's just me.

 

[GHG]

People who talk about ringfencing or carving out the UK portion of Activision business, here is the #1 reason that will never ever happen: The financial loss would be insane!

Giphy's pricetag went from $400m to $53m!!!!

 

[feynoob]

This is insane. It's YOUR studio, you make the damn rules, if 18 months is disruptive....change the rules, you don't have to go through an act of Congress or something, you're a corporation, just change the rules to make this shit work.

Or, simpler, just hire people, pay them, give them solid benefits, and treat them like actual people and not cogs. But, that's just me.

This isn't Xbox studio. This applies to entire MS business.

 

[GHG]

This isn't Xbox studio. This applies to entire MS business.

Therein lies the problem. They are trying to run an entertainment/creative business like the rest of the company.

The intricacies are different.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Absolutely shocked that Microsoft uses contractors for the grunt of their business instead of offering full time employment and decent terms, shocked I tell you.

 

[Pollux]

This isn't Xbox studio. This applies to entire MS business.

I understand that, but the point remains, that MS the overarching entity can change whatever policies for whatever subsidiary they wish. It's not some rule that's written in stone they are powerless to change. They can't have both - a rule for 18 months on contractors, then blame the rule as if they're powerless to change it as an excuse when a product isn't up to a certain standard.

 

[X-Wing]

Therein lies the problem. They are trying to run an entertainment/creative business like the rest of the company.

The intricacies are different.

The use of contractors is beneficial for them… it’s a way to pay less taxes.

 

[gothmog]

Some of their whatever theories. I don't read their weird stuff, but everytime i look into this thread it's full of Mueller and Senju Twitter stuff.

I think we should just ignore them but that doesn't seem to be what people want.

 

[GHG]

The use of contractors is beneficial for them… it’s a way to pay less taxes.

Of course, but when you are developing huge games which require continuity for up to (and sometimes exceeding) 4-5 years it doesn't really work.

 

[feynoob]

Therein lies the problem. They are trying to run an entertainment/creative business like the rest of the company.

The intricacies are different.

I understand that, but the point remains, that MS the overarching entity can change whatever policies for whatever subsidiary they wish. It's not some rule that's written in stone they are powerless to change. They can't have both - a rule for 18 months on contractors, then blame the rule as if they're powerless to change it as an excuse when a product isn't up to a certain standard.

Changing a rule like that is not easy for a company that is the size of MS.

 

[X-Wing]

Of course, but when you are developing huge games which require continuity for up to (and sometimes exceeding) 4-5 years it doesn't really work.

I agree with that, but it’s Microsoft… why bother when you can just buy the ground from under your competitor’s feet

 

[Pollux]

Changing a rule like that is not easy for a company that is the size of MS.

I never said it was easy, I said it was possible. Even saying they're looking into changing it would be a step in the right direction.

 

[feynoob]

I never said it was easy, I said it was possible. Even saying they're looking into changing it would be a step in the right direction.

I agree with that. They need to change that.
It's up to Satya for that to happen. Which makes the new management (Incase Phil gets fired) job difficult.

 

[Three]

I understand that, but the point remains, that MS the overarching entity can change whatever policies for whatever subsidiary they wish. It's not some rule that's written in stone they are powerless to change. They can't have both - a rule for 18 months on contractors, then blame the rule as if they're powerless to change it as an excuse when a product isn't up to a certain standard.

They can't. I believe they do it due to temporary worker rules otherwise they have to pay for employee benefits like paid time off like sick pay, holidays and healthcare. I'm no expert but there is also a law for rehiring where temps can only be rehired at the same company for two consecutive years. So yes they can make them full employees but they don't want to.

 

[Astray]

Changing a rule like that is not easy for a company that is the size of MS.

Which is why Xbox should have been spun off ages ago.

 

[reksveks]

They can't. I believe they do it due to temporary worker rules otherwise they have to pay for employee benefits like paid time off like sick pay, holidays and healthcare. I'm no expert but there is also a law for rehiring where temps can only be rehired at the same company for two consecutive years.

Yeah, it's a shit practice to ensure that they do not have to give full employee benefits. I do think MS are particularly bad on this front.

Contextually I haven't seen how they compare to the general tech sectors, gaming sector and big tech peers.

 

[Edmund]

This isn't Xbox studio. This applies to entire MS business.

Wait what?? I thought that 18 months contractor thing was just for Xbox game division. Wow this is even worse than I thought.

 

[feynoob]

They can't. I believe they do it due to temporary worker rules otherwise they have to pay for employee benefits like paid time off like sick pay, holidays and healthcare. I'm no expert but there is also a law for rehiring where temps can only be rehired at the same company for two consecutive years. So yes they can make them full employees but they don't want to.

Not to mention they have to fire them, if they don't want their service, which creates a backlash for them. We saw that with the 10k people.

 

[feynoob]

Wait what?? I thought that 18 contractor thing was just for Xbox game division. Wow this is even worse than I thought.

It's only bad for Xbox, due to how long it takes to develop those games.

Other departments don't need that much workers, so contractor's makes sense for them.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Exactly what happened to me. I corrected him on something and, like you, I was very polite about it. Seems disagreeing with Florian Mueller is not allowed. What a jackass.

What's his Ree handle?

 

[IFireflyl]

What's his Ree handle?

I think it is TrannyMilkMaker69.

 

[feynoob]

What's his Ree handle?

He is jealous of idas, so I doubt he can last that much there.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Therein lies the problem. They are trying to run an entertainment/creative business like the rest of the company.

The intricacies are different.

 

[LordCBH]

This is insane. It's YOUR studio, you make the damn rules, if 18 months is disruptive....change the rules, you don't have to go through an act of Congress or something, you're a corporation, just change the rules to make this shit work.

Or, simpler, just hire people, pay them, give them solid benefits, and treat them like actual people and not cogs. But, that's just me.

Wait. Microsoft relies on CONTRACTOR POSITIONS for their games work force? What idiot set that up?

 

[feynoob]

Wait. Microsoft relies on CONTRACTOR POSITIONS for their games work force? What idiot set that up?

Something that has been going since 2000.

Microsoft to pay $97 million to settle ‘permatemp’ case

The software vendor and a law firm representing more than 8,000 people who have held temporary jobs at Microsoft announced a settlement of a class-action lawsuit over whether the workers should have been eligible for some benefits.

www.computerworld.com

 

[M1chl]

 

[LordCBH]

Something that has been going since 2000.

Microsoft to pay $97 million to settle ‘permatemp’ case

The software vendor and a law firm representing more than 8,000 people who have held temporary jobs at Microsoft announced a settlement of a class-action lawsuit over whether the workers should have been eligible for some benefits.

www.computerworld.com

Jesus. No wonder their software sucks and they release a good game once in a blue moon. How can you even have a cohesive vision for what you want if you’re limiting yourself to temporary contractors?

 

[wolffy66]

Of course, but when you are developing huge games which require continuity for up to (and sometimes exceeding) 4-5 years it doesn't really work.

It's probably more about benefits and full time workers if I had to guess

 

[Topher]

What's his Ree handle?

darkmage something?

 

[feynoob]

Jesus. No wonder their software sucks and they release a good game once in a blue moon. How can you even have a cohesive vision for what you want if you’re limiting yourself to temporary contractors?

They don't have a vision, considering who their boss is.

 

[Clear]

On the subject of contractors, just consider for a moment the complexity that gets added trying to recruit people to work on a project using a bespoke engine and toolchain like, for example, Halo Infinite.

You need to not only hire new talent, you have to train them up on the intricacies of the tech being used. This takes time and focus, as does the overall weight on the team to meticulously document its current state and methodologies just in case a core team member leaves taking that knowledge with them.

This is why standardized third-party engines are so appealing; you have a much larger pool of potential candidates who are already close or at speed on the toolchain.

 

[LordCBH]

Microsoft over here complaining when they’re causing most of their own problems. Insane.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Microsoft over here complaining when they’re causing most of their own problems. Insane.

It's the narcissistic victimhood way in current year. Even trilly dollar companies are doing it.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

They can't. I believe they do it due to temporary worker rules otherwise they have to pay for employee benefits like paid time off like sick pay, holidays and healthcare. I'm no expert but there is also a law for rehiring where temps can only be rehired at the same company for two consecutive years. So yes they can make them full employees but they don't want to.

If you want good work done, you had to be ready to pay for it. Games used to take 2 years or so to make so it isn't so bad to have a firing and rehiring cycle. But with it taking 5 years now you might end up losing the team you started with near the end. No wonder Halo Infinite took so long. It's like trying to make a banquet but you switch to new chefs every 20 minutes.

Is that why all of Xbox's purchased studios suck? They hire a team, put them through a few wash cycles of firing and hiring once a year, and a few years later the studio they bought had already ceased to EXIST.

Nintendo and Sony keep their studios and the people in them. In the case of Nintendo, we are talking about generations of employees. Like the team that does nothing but Zelda games. These are valuable assets and it would be suicidal to keep them on contractual basis. I am starting to see what the problem is with Xbox.

 

[fred420170]

On the subject of contractors, just consider for a moment the complexity that gets added trying to recruit people to work on a project using a bespoke engine and toolchain like, for example, Halo Infinite.

You need to not only hire new talent, you have to train them up on the intricacies of the tech being used. This takes time and focus, as does the overall weight on the team to meticulously document its current state and methodologies just in case a core team member leaves taking that knowledge with them.

This is why standardized third-party engines are so appealing; you have a much larger pool of potential candidates who are already close or at speed on the toolchain.

I am a PM by profession. Just an example, I just finished out rolling out a huge project for retail IT. This comprised of approximately 50 internal associates, (developers, engineers, business owners, QA etc) We also have several offshore teams that handle the low level development, QA & technical writing tasks. That comprises of approximately 170 contractors. Each person that is onboarded FT costs approx 30k by the time you are done w/ training, knowledge transfer etc. This doesn't include benefits, time off etc.. After the project is over we don't have a need for the 170 contractors what would they do? It's not worth spending the money to onboard a two year project.. All companies work this way and have done so for a very long time it's just business.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

I am a PM by profession. Just an example, I just finished out rolling out a huge project for retail IT. This comprised of approximately 50 internal associates, (developers, engineers, business owners, QA etc) We also have several offshore teams that handle the low level development, QA & technical writing tasks. That comprises of approximately 170 contractors. Each person that is onboarded FT costs approx 30k by the time you are done w/ training, knowledge transfer etc. This doesn't include benefits, time off etc.. After the project is over we don't have a need for the 170 contractors what would they do? It's not worth spending the money to onboard a two year project.. All companies work this way and have done so for a very long time it's just business.

Except gaming production doesn't take 2 years anymore. We can barely have two games of the same franchise to come out in a single console generation. Besthesda couldn't make a TES game soon enough to come out last gen. "Fast" video-game production basically no longer exists. So you either think long term or just have the project collapse.

 

[Eotheod]

On the subject of contractors, just consider for a moment the complexity that gets added trying to recruit people to work on a project using a bespoke engine and toolchain like, for example, Halo Infinite.

You need to not only hire new talent, you have to train them up on the intricacies of the tech being used. This takes time and focus, as does the overall weight on the team to meticulously document its current state and methodologies just in case a core team member leaves taking that knowledge with them.

This is why standardized third-party engines are so appealing; you have a much larger pool of potential candidates who are already close or at speed on the toolchain.

Most competent programmers should be documenting automatically, because it is drilled into you in order to provide discussion points for future reference. The assumption as well that there is difficulty maintaining and operating a custom engine isn't always true. Such technological investments can produce games of amazing quality, but the complete package is ensuring understanding is there from the get go.

No matter who you have on your team, and whatever engine you are using, it is up to the planning and management that is key to success.

If you want good work done, you had to be ready to pay for it. Games used to take 2 years or so to make so it isn't so bad to have a firing and rehiring cycle. But with it taking 5 years now you might end up losing the team you started with near the end. No wonder Halo Infinite took so long. It's like trying to make a banquet but you switch to new chefs every 20 minutes.

Is that why all of Xbox's purchased studios suck? They hire a team, put them through a few wash cycles of firing and hiring once a year, and a few years later the studio they bought had already ceased to EXIST.

Nintendo and Sony keep their studios and the people in them. In the case of Nintendo, we are talking about generations of employees. Like the team that does nothing but Zelda games. These are valuable assets and it would be suicidal to keep them on contractual basis. I am starting to see what the problem is with Xbox.

No company operates without contractors, it's just a given in today's world of business. Definitely there is reason for retaining employees long term, however you do run the risk of potential stagnation due to complacency. Local government is a great example of that, as most in the sector are in it for the security and that's all, so contractors come in to provide new ideas.

The use of contractors is not Microsoft's issue with Xbox, it's brand management through studio alignment on producing quality titles that are truly ready for deployment. Rushing gets no one anywhere, and throwing money at the situation does nothing. This will come as a surprise to many, but throwing cash at problems does not fix them.

 

[Bernoulli]

He is jealous of idas, so I doubt he can last that much there.

Idas is done, when he posts updates they all ignore him now because he is being realistic and not fueling them with copium

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Definitely there is reason for retaining employees long term, however you do run the risk of potential stagnation due to complacency.

Xbox is already suffering from Complacency in not having to make money. Even their customers are starting to say it doesn't matter if Xbox never makes money because they allegedly never need to. Not abile to fail is the ultimate source of complacency.

 

[fred420170]

Most competent programmers should be documenting automatically, because it is drilled into you in order to provide discussion points for future reference. The assumption as well that there is difficulty maintaining and operating a custom engine isn't always true. Such technological investments can produce games of amazing quality, but the complete package is ensuring understanding is there from the get go.

No matter who you have on your team, and whatever engine you are using, it is up to the planning and management that is key to success.

No company operates without contractors, it's just a given in today's world of business. Definitely there is reason for retaining employees long term, however you do run the risk of potential stagnation due to complacency. Local government is a great example of that, as most in the sector are in it for the security and that's all, so contractors come in to provide new ideas.

The use of contractors is not Microsoft's issue with Xbox, it's brand management through studio alignment on producing quality titles that are truly ready for deployment. Rushing gets no one anywhere, and throwing money at the situation does nothing. This will come as a surprise to many, but throwing cash at problems does not fix them.

Seems to work really well with Oracle if I throw them another 500k - 1million to speed things up to get the project done on time. Money does fix the problem 9/10.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Therein lies the problem. They are trying to run an entertainment/creative business like the rest of the company.

The intricacies are different.

Reminds me of the succession scene where Roman goes ape shit against the studio director of waystar studios when she is trying to tell him creatives don’t work like that.

Creatives are different than people whose dream job is to work on productivity software.

To people saying this isn’t a problem it was identified as a problem in Halo Infinite’s development. That said I don’t think it’s THE problem, just one of them.

 

[Bernoulli]

The comments

 

[feynoob]

 

[The Pleasure]

So he basically made up his own scores and then got mad at them?

Amazing specimen.

I'm sure you can turn all of SenjutsuSage twatters into an early 2000s emo song and it would slap pretty hard.