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New cartridge based non-emulated "Retro" console being kickstarted!

Ooo, they added PacMan Yellow!

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Regardless of how successful these will be, I'll definitely be supporting the Kickstarter. I think it'll get enough games to be worth it, even if it doesn't really take off.
 
Only if you are trying to emulate an existing game, which is not the point of this system. If you are writing a new game for the Retro VGA, this lets you program it in a retro way that you are familiar with, with retro limitations. Like, I'm experienced programming Gameboy Color games in Z-80 assembly, if I wanted I could write something for this in Z-80 and it would run.
It is still a (probably more accurate than usually) emulator. Like, if I was experienced in Mega Drive programming, if I wanted I could write something for PC running a Mega Drive emulator and it would run, and I could ship it to other PC users with the emulator. But why the heck would I do that? If I had that much fun coding the SMD, it would be fairly more awesome to release the game for SMD. If I want to code for a system with FPGA inside, then there is no reason to stick to SMD emulator.
 

Kawika

Member
I pledged $150 for Volgarr the Viking's Kickstarter so I could have this:

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There are crazy people out there who love special collector's editions, and I imagine a Retro VGS version of a retro-style game would be a pretty cool collectible.

This sort of things is exactly what I am talking about. Imagine a shelf full of retro remakes and retro styled indies. Oh man. So good.
 
So I was looking into this a bit more and their Facebook page lists these as some of the games that are planned to be on the system: https://www.kickstarter.com/project...en2-video-games-for-pc-and-mac?ref=nav_search

Look, guys! It's so *retro*!
LITERALLY NOBODY WANTS THIS.

All three of them look like complete shovelware except maybe Night Stalker at the least but they didn't even show gameplay of that.
There comes a point in terms of remakes where games become too primitive to make simple graphical updates to without some major, radical changes to gameplay to modernize it and it doesn't seem like any of these deviate enough from the source material to be interesting at all. At this point, these are glorified flash games at best.
 
Make it a 68k powered machine people have to program in ASM and I'm in.

Actually, that's kind-of close to what it really is. The system is based around an FPGA, a chip that you can reconfigure at bootup to turn it into whatever chip or system-on-chip you want (assuming you have a core for what you want it to be). So a game's cartridge will turn the console into a virtual NES, or Genesis, or whatever, so that retro developers can program their games in assembly for the system of their choice.
 

Alphahawk

Member
The one thing I'm worried about is that Gamestar85 mentioned that The Adventure of Tiny Knight will most likely have a password feature as opposed to battery back up. While I love some things about retro games I also despise some things about retro games and if a majority of the games will not have a battery in them then that's going to hurt them dearly.
 

CDX

Member
oh wow. I must have missed this thread and any news elsewhere about this console.

This is an "interesting" idea. I personally have huge doubts this will achieve even a fraction of the "success" the Ouya did.

BUT If it's really inexpensive I'll buy one or kickstart pledge for one just so I can have it, with absolutely no expectations it will have any sort of future.
 
The one thing I'm worried about is that Gamestar85 mentioned that The Adventure of Tiny Knight will most likely have a password feature as opposed to battery back up. While I love some things about retro games I also despise some things about retro games and if a majority of the games will not have a battery in them then that's going to hurt them dearly.
The RetroVGS guys have said in interviews that saving will be easy on all cartridges, because the carts are using a form of flash rom already. That Tiny Knight video may have been made before that, as the system is still being designed.

oh wow. I must have missed this thread and any news elsewhere about this console.

This is an "interesting" idea. I personally have huge doubts this will achieve even a fraction of the "success" the Ouya did.

BUT If it's really inexpensive I'll buy one or kickstart pledge for one just so I can have it, with absolutely no expectations it will have any sort of future.
Yeah, it may not be huge or anything, but if nothing else it'll be a fun collectible, and let you collect some games on cartridge (they are planning to have at least 10-15 carts available day 1, to be announced at the Kickstarter). And for retro developers, it'll be cool to have a version of your game on an actual commercial cartridge available to at least a few thousand people. As for "inexpensive", it sounds like they are targeting around $150 to $200 for the console with two controllers and the packin game.
 
Do they have any confirmed titles other than Tiny Knight?

Key word there being CONFIRMED.

Not "we're asking" or "these people with a completely (if not equally) unrealistic Kickstarter want to" or "we're in secret negotiations with" or "we're expecting more indies to become interested"

People are right to be critical of this project because their optimism is dangerous when we already know that they plan to use other people's money. But maybe seeing the results of their Kickstarter will be a little more humbling. We'll never know until it happens. And if I'm proven wrong, then I'll be the one eating a slice of humble pie but I'm not holding my appetite.
 
Do they have any confirmed titles other than Tiny Knight?

Key word there being CONFIRMED.

Not "we're asking" or "these people with a completely (if not equally) unrealistic Kickstarter want to" or "we're in secret negotiations with" or "we're expecting more indies to become interested"

People are right to be critical of this project because their optimism is dangerous when we already know that they plan to use other people's money. But maybe seeing the results of their Kickstarter will be a little more humbling. We'll never know until it happens. And if I'm proven wrong, then I'll be the one eating a slice of humble pie but I'm not holding my appetite.

I agree with your concerns. The reality is that almost any company on the planet will take a call from anyone interested in paying them money to license something. Claiming that they are "in talks" with publishers about licensing titles is probably factually accurate, but very likely not entirely honest. No legitimate publisher will move forward without a guarantee of a significant payment up front and the same terms they receive from other licensees with respect to royalties. Ultimately, unless they can raise millions of dollars or develop a user base in the hundreds of thousands of people, this is not going to be an attractive platform for anyone but part-time homebrew developers that can live with selling hundreds of copies of a game just like they do when they create their homebrews for classic platforms today. Frankly, I already own all the classic platforms and I don't want or need some new platform disguised in a Jaguar shell with a crummy controller to play the same homebrews I can already get on the real classic hardware.
 
Cartridges are expensive as shit to produce. This is going to bomb hard.

Even if they aren't that expsneive, how much super indie dev's are going to have $5000 or so to tie up in inventory? Will they then have to add someone to help process and ship orders? This seems like a nightmare when it comes to indie devs who are inexperienced in terms of managing inventory....
 

Fularu

Banned
Cartridges are expensive as shit to produce. This is going to bomb hard.

Not really. You can produce (and flash) Genesis games for less than 10$ a piece including packaging. I doubt 3DS games are much more expensive to produce either.
 

Alcahest

Member
It's not just ports. Their plans are to get companies on board to actually make new cartridge based games and even possibly get sequels to classic games we never got...for example Axelay II from Konami that they teased but never gave us.
Stopped reading there, good laugh thanks.
 
Tiny Knight looks all kinds of wonderful in a Wonderboy inspired "with a twist" kind of way. The console is now on my radar. I have quite severe doubts as to the potential success and future longevity of this but if they can secure a set of cool nostalgic exclusives like Tiny Knight I wouldn't mind having something like this under my television. I'll be keeping an eye on their KS as I hope that they're successful. This might not light the world on fire but it could potentially become home to some cool retro throwback games so I'm definitely interested.

Do we have word on when the KS is going live? Might even back it.

EDIT: Nevermind. It's on their website:

When is the Kickstarter Happening?
We are planning on launching The RETRO VGS Kickstarter campaign this summer, July/August 2015.

Reading around the site it's looking like the KS campaign's delay is because they're trying to secure as many "Kickstarter launch titles" as possible. Wise move.
 
Reading around the site it's looking like the KS campaign's delay is because they're trying to secure as many "Kickstarter launch titles" as possible. Wise move.
Actually, from listening to interviews on podcasts, it's more that they want to have real working hardware first that they can show off - they want to have a real prototype device they can plug a controller and a cartridge into, and that into a TV, and play a real in-development game. They really wanted to hold the Kickstarter just before E3, but it just wasn't ready.

Dreamwriter said:
Make it a 68k powered machine people have to program in ASM and I'm in.
Actually, that's kind-of close to what it really is. The system is based around an FPGA, a chip that you can reconfigure at bootup to turn it into whatever chip or system-on-chip you want (assuming you have a core for what you want it to be). So a game's cartridge will turn the console into a virtual NES, or Genesis, or whatever, so that retro developers can program their games in assembly for the system of their choice.

It's not even close.
What? I don't understand, how is "not even close" when you can program games for it in native 68k assembly? If you are used to programming in 68k assembly, you can for example write your game for Sega Genesis or Neo Geo, both were powered by a 68k CPU, that sounds like exactly what system11 wanted.

Cartridges are expensive as shit to produce. This is going to bomb hard.
In interviews the company has said cartridges will cost developers $8-10 to produce including label and instructions, and they can be bought in lots as low as 25 cartridges. And if the Retro VGS guys really like a game, they'll offer to sell it themselves for a cut of the profits, manufacturing carts as needed.
 

ultrazilla

Member
They've updated their "output" section on their FAQ:
http://www.retrovgs.com/f.a.q..html


What are the output specifications?
​​​(John Carlsen) RETRO VGS is a premium game console that outputs high-quality audio and video simultaneously in digital and analog formats. It can connect to televisions anywhere in the world via HDMI 1.3 and allows easy recording of sound and NTSC composite video (or Y/C S-Video via mini-DIN), even while playing in high definition.

As the first game console with a field-programmable gate array (FPGA), RETRO VGS allows game developers to form complex modern sound and graphics circuits to express their creative visions in ways never before possible. The FPGA can generate video at up to 720p/60 or 1080p/30, which the CPU can mix with its images to output up to 1080p/60, all with a palette of more than 16.7 million colors (24-bit true color). RETRO VGS outputs line-level mono or stereo audio that can meet or exceed CD-quality.

Game developers may choose to compress their memory requirements by using indexed color modes (choosing a smaller number of any of the available colors) and/or lower video and audio resolutions, giving game sounds and images a distinctive “retro” style, which can then be upscaled and/or mixed in creative and fun ways.
 
What? I don't understand, how is "not even close" when you can program games for it in native 68k assembly? If you are used to programming in 68k assembly, you can for example write your game for Sega Genesis or Neo Geo, both were powered by a 68k CPU, that sounds like exactly what system11 wanted.
The thing is, it's not native. The native code for that thing is the FPGA's language (I'm not an expert in that field, so forgive me lack of proper wording). Making a Genesis-style game for the thing and selling it with fitting FPGA program is roughly comparable with making an actual Genesis game and selling it with an emulator on PC. The thing is, it makes more sense to just make the game for PC unless you plan to release it on Genny too.
 
The thing is, it's not native. The native code for that thing is the FPGA's language (I'm not an expert in that field, so forgive me lack of proper wording). Making a Genesis-style game for the thing and selling it with fitting FPGA program is roughly comparable with making an actual Genesis game and selling it with an emulator on PC. The thing is, it makes more sense to just make the game for PC unless you plan to release it on Genny too.
How does that mean that what System11 asked for "Make it a 68k powered machine people have to program in ASM" isn't the case? It's a machine that can be powered by a 68k that people have to program in ASM. Developers program it exactly like they would program their favorite game console, in Assembly, as long as a core for that console exists.

And there is no "native FPGA language" that is interpreting code like emulators, the FPGA is a hardware chip that can be reconfigured at boot to act as different hardware chips. There is no software emulator running in that interpreting game code to run in any native language, people are reconfiguring the FPGA to exactly become different chips. In fact, people designing new chips often use FPGAs during development.

You are correct that it's possible the FPGA core creator may setup one of the special system chips (like the NES PPU chip) somewhat incorrectly so it wouldn't be exactly like a Genesis or NES or whatever complete with original hardware flaws, but that's not really the point to recreate the system perfectly exactly enough to run all existing games, the Retro VGS isn't designed to play pre-existing games but new retro-style games (although the person making many of the cores the Retro VGS is reportedly very skilled at making them accurate). And this allows those game developers to make their game exactly the same way they are used to for the game system of their choice.

As for "it makes more sense to just make the game for PC", programming in C/C++/C# for PC is an entirely different mindset than programming in assembly for a limited system; having infinite power (compared to retro systems) doesn't really encourage people to think "retro", you just end up with lots of modern games with pixel art. And then you wouldn't have your game on a cartridge running on a dedicated game console (and if you did have a NES or Genesis cart manufactured, your audience would be pretty small for how much that cartridge would cost).
 
Nah, you are completely incorrect when you are saying reconfiguring FPGA at boot is somehow completely different from changing a CPU program. FPGA's a relatively weird chip that you program so it does something, there is nothing stopping you from programming it so it, say, computes primes, and in fact they seem to plan to use it as a plain old PPU by default; but optionally allow using it to emulate a 68k or other CPU with or without peripherals. You technically can do the same thing with some microcontrollers which definitely aren't FPGAs.

So in order to program the old way, that is to push the hardware, the thing one should do would be reprogramming the FPGA so it does exactly what one wants.
 
Nah, you are completely incorrect when you are saying reconfiguring FPGA at boot is somehow completely different from changing a CPU program. FPGA's a relatively weird chip that you program so it does something, there is nothing stopping you from programming it so it, say, computes primes, and in fact they seem to plan to use it as a plain old PPU by default; but optionally allow using it to emulate a 68k or other CPU with or without peripherals. You technically can do the same thing with some microcontrollers which definitely aren't FPGAs.

So in order to program the old way, that is to push the hardware, the thing one should do would be reprogramming the FPGA so it does exactly what one wants.

It is completely different from changing a program that runs on a CPU. The FPGA acts *as* a CPU (or collection of them). You aren't programming it in a language, no software program is running on it converting emulated commands into a native language and then running that native language. At bootup you are describing the circuits to create a set of processing chips (or memory chips or whatever). In fact, you can load an actual circuit diagram into an FPGA (though people don't generally do that much these days).

Think of programming an FPGA as similar to burning an EEPROM - the EEPROM isn't emulating a ROM chip, it *is* a ROM chip, just one that can be reconfigured.
 
Come on, this is factually incorrect. You can program FPGA in a (FPGA) language like VeriLog. It's different from regular programming and describes connections between parts, because that's how FPGA works, but there are also multiple similarities. Similarly, GPU programming languages reflect how GPU works and GPUs can't usually run CPU programs, but nobody serious says that GPUs are not programmable. The same can be said about microcode for both GPUs and CPUs and voila, we have N64 microcode access debate.

The only remote similarity to EEPROM burning is that most FPGAs can't reprogram themselves without external help. But the same could be said about early programmable GPUs for instance.
 

jbartee

Member
A cool idea in theory but sounds faulty in the execution.

  • The retro scene values the design and architecture of old school consoles just as much as we value the games. There's endless talk over the Sony sound chip in SNES, exploiting the Yamaha sound chip in Genesis, the 68000 microprocessor, the multi-processor design of the Saturn, etc. We dig that shit a lot. This console is probably using a generic ARM SoC processor with some Android variant. There's nothing inherently interesting about that anymore
  • Going FPGA to simulate multiple retro systems robs the console of having its OWN identity. Again, in the retro scene, we love these systems because of the properties that culminate to give them their identity that is wholly unique upon that particular console. FPGA ensures this system will never obtain that kind of uniqueness
  • Like others have said, the chances of 3rd parties licensing their games out for 16-bit "demakes" (TBH I think it'd improve certain games ;) on a system like this are pretty damn low. I don't even mean that because of the retro theme; that said this possibly being another Android SoC box and FPGA gives it a soulless identity and risks it being a "jack of all trades, master of none" system. One that limits its games to physical carts (not the bad part) that are playable *only* on that console (this is the bad part), with no digital versions available on network services accessible by other devices...
  • ...which leads to another problem. People like saying "exclusives don't matter". Well, you're wrong. They do, especially for a system like this. No one is going to buy a console that plays 16-bit demakes of games on a PS4, XBO, Steam etc, at least...not just for that reason. It needs compelling original software to drive adoption because it doesn't have much else going for it (especially if there's no digital equivalent, and is simply a FPGA Android SoC solution). There's only a demo of one game out there I'm aware of and it looks okay for a first-gen launch SNES game but not extraordinary, nor does it seem to have any unique game mechanics in place. It needs more original software.
  • Another problem is the design. There's a reason the Jaguar failed, and you do NOT want to give people the feeling your system is anything like the Jaguar. Yes it has its pockets of fans but let's just be frank and say its community is nowhere near as large or beloved as other "failed" consoles like the NeoGeo or Sega Saturn. What these guys should have done is licensed a design after something like the NeoGeo, or Sega Genesis, or Turbographx/PC Engine, etc. None of those respective companies are actually in the console manufacturer business anymore, and some (Sega in particular) have shown a tenacity for granting licenses for clones to use their 16-bit console's likeness (and even come bundled with their software). Those three systems are much more beloved than the Jaguar and would ensure that a retro-themed console patterning their design would generate more nostalgia and more support, thus more money and more sales (and yes, the SNES is also very beloved but Nintendo would never give another company permission to use their design's likeness in a product, not without probably shutting it down or demanding a lot of money for granting the privilege)

...That's a lot of problems. However these guys may still have time to fix it if they:

  • Offer a digital, 100% emulated version of their system, preferably as a streaming service through a website or app, where they can time-release the console library for players on other devices besides their console. They could implement a small subscription fee and even make some of the games playable for free possibly to entice them to buy the console and physical copy of games
  • Go for a processor architecture that captures the spirit of old 16-bit systems, but provide tons of documentation so that it's easy/manageable for today's developers (particularly those in the indie scene on x86 devices). This is tough, because almost any processor out there today is magnitudes stronger than a Genesis 68k, for instance. The best they can do is go for modern day processors that are in the same family. For example, a Motorola Dragonball processor (a variant of which is being used in a new LG smartphone releasing this month. Yes, I know....it's an ARM SoC, but it's either that or a ColdFire variant or an actual 68k. Or hell...something I guess...)

    Even if they did that, there's the risk that many indie devs today are not familiar with those architectures and may not have the time or money to learn them. If they can find an x86 or (less desirably, but eh..) ARM variant that imitates the general nature of 16-bit consoles of the time, while providing familiarity with today's architectures or making sure the pain in learning what the console uses is as small as possible, they should preferably aim for that.
  • Pour quality time and effort in giving it a real identity. Logos, font types, flyers, mimicking advertising from that era, you name it. The more they pour into the little details, the better.
  • Don't make it TOO retro. By this I mean bring modern features like a unified account system (for console owners, one where they can cross-play with people on the digital service and also play their own collection of games between the console and digital platform with full transfer of data between the two) and online multiplayer. Not everything was awesome in the 90s ;)
  • Most importantly, SHOW US MORE GAMES! Real, quality games that are every bit as engaging and memorable as the best from that era (well, there's room for those of lesser quality too, but you get the point). Also just because it's a retro-themed 16-bit system doesn't mean the games have to be as plain-jane as some of the ones from that era. They mentioned Shovel Knight and that's a pretty solid example of the baseline type of quality they should be shooting for in regards of games that are a good mix of old and new. They also need to focus on a set of genres for sake of library diversification.

If you're wondering why this is so long, it's because I've written up tons of ideas for my own retro-like system, and some of these ideas are pulled from there. If I were designing this thing there'd be a fair bit more going on but needless to say, there IS a market for a proper enthusiast retro system, despite some of the more oblivious posts I've read in the thread. But it doesn't matter if there's a market for something or not; if the product doesn't appeal to that market, it won't sell very well.

Just look at the Wii U :(.

dunno why this post isn't getting more love, you're exactly on the money here. I would buy the shit out of what you're describing and i'm sure there's a ton of others in the scene who would too. enough people to take over the world? maybe not, but certainly enough to turn a modest profit and build something sustainable (and awesome! which is the real point of doing anything).

but yeah the execution has to be perfect with something like this. when you're appealing to a mega-niche you really have to understand that niche. the project as it stands just seems to miss so many of the fundamentals in concept, design, and (planned) execution.
 
Maybe the scene has done lapped me something fierce, but given the above: Wasn't it the case that FPGA's were NOT at all up to the level of heft to handle the sort of complexity and "output" in that FAQ update? My main frame of reference was the ill-fated Amiga scene's interest in it---but I definitely recall it being a case of "Well, eventually you can do all kinds of things with this in theory....but only when everything is much more powerful/expensive which all depends on the very few companies making the things taking quite a leap beyond low-power embedded concerns..."

I guess they might have some sort of hybrid way around this for absolute performance, but otherwise this thing seems like a harder and harder sell as time rolls on as the updates raise more eyebrows for further questions than contented answers.
 
Wow, that Jaguar case mold gets around. I think it's also used for dental equipment or something.

She's a dirty, filthy case mold that's seen more action than Chuck Norris. Things went downhill for her after the Bit Wars. She tried to become a dentist or some shit. Last I seen her was on the corner of 48th and 3rd. Wearing stilettos higher than her IQ.
 
Wow, that Jaguar case mold gets around. I think it's also used for dental equipment or something.
That's exactly why they got it so cheaply. The dental company was happy to sell the thing I guess. It's actually one decision of project leaders I can absolutely agree with.
 
This is going to be so hard to pull off. I can see a few big name indies (Shovel Knight, etc.) being released, along with a slightly larger slew of crap Indies, before the support for this console dries up.

I think it would be cool if this could get major 3rd party support and become a successful console, but I just don't see these guys being able to pull it off.
 

Songbringer is the first game they've shown off I'd actually be interested in owning a cartridge of. Have they said if this system will work with Bluetooth receivers? Using a SNES30 seems like it would be a nice alternative to the controller that's getting shown off with the system now.
 

Trago

Member
Apparently they're in talks with some third parties to bring games onto the thing. I think it would be funny if publishers just randomly develop dormant ip's from the 8-16 bit eras for this console.
 

sniperpon

Member
Really cool idea in theory. But I don't think it would wind up like how this guy is envisioning, due to the fact that game developers today don't know how to make games of that era anymore-- it's impossible. Like all things, games of that time were a product of certain people, born and raised during a certain time, reflecting certain cultural phenomena at the time, etc. It was lightening in a bottle; it can't be recaptured.

That's why modern pixel art indie games are so cargo cultish; they can replicate the superficialities, but the spirit isn't there.

Actually, the fact that the system itself is called "retro" already eye-rollingly illustrates where this will go to me.
 

Peltz

Member
As a retro game collector (hell I even collect CRTs just because) I don't really see a need for such a system.

Unless.... Wait... does it support genuine 240p output? If so... I can get on board with this.
 

verdures

Member
Unless.... Wait... does it support genuine 240p output? If so... I can get on board with this.
They make it sound on the site like it'll be 720p or 1080p, and it'll be on devs to decide how they want to handle upscaling from the internal res.
 

Peltz

Member
They make it sound on the site like it'll be 720p or 1080p, and it'll be on devs to decide how they want to handle upscaling from the internal res.

Sounds like a thoroughly half-baked hodge-podge of ideas that fails to appeal to their true target audience in that case.

Why would I want a retro-cart playing new console in the modern age that cannot even output at the proper resolution? I already have devices where I can play brand new retro-inspired games at high resolutions. It needs RGB or at least S-Video output at 240p to get me on board.
 
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