Not sure about that, I don't think I'm very good with organizing information and stuff. On another note, are the importers getting their own thread like always or is everything getting shoved into one OT thread?
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NieR Automata PS4 demo available now
- Thread starter miku
- Start date
Not sure about that, I don't think I'm very good with organizing information and stuff. On another note, are the importers getting their own thread like always or is everything getting shoved into one OT thread?
Three weapons if you count BARE FISTS! I tried playing through on hard with no weapons the other day and it was really tough, but doable. The jump->heavy punch launcher move gives you a TON of height, too, I don't know if it's better than the more technical jumping techniques but it helped me find at least one shortcut early on.
Cipher Peon
Banned
My girlfriend and I played it over the weekend and... we didn't enjoy it much?
I think it's best exemplified by the fact we played the demo for a while and then FF XV and the next day I asked her what she thought of the games we played and she gushed about FF XV and nothing about Nier. Which, to be fair, same. It was like night and day.
We both thought the gameplay was poorly tutorialized and implemented, and the massive switches in camera perspectives were disorienting and unfun. She had a lot of difficulty grasping the controls, as well.
We disagreed on the visuals, she liked them and I didn't, but we both agreed that the environments were lame and didn't match 2B's aesthetic at all... but we both liked 2B, so that's that!
Overall, the excitement of the demo got to me enough to try it out but now that I've played it, I think I'll pass.
I think it's best exemplified by the fact we played the demo for a while and then FF XV and the next day I asked her what she thought of the games we played and she gushed about FF XV and nothing about Nier. Which, to be fair, same. It was like night and day.
We both thought the gameplay was poorly tutorialized and implemented, and the massive switches in camera perspectives were disorienting and unfun. She had a lot of difficulty grasping the controls, as well.
We disagreed on the visuals, she liked them and I didn't, but we both agreed that the environments were lame and didn't match 2B's aesthetic at all... but we both liked 2B, so that's that!
Overall, the excitement of the demo got to me enough to try it out but now that I've played it, I think I'll pass.
YoRHa No.2 Type B
Banned
Thank you.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
after FFXV having one of the worst action combat systems I have ever played in my life, this demo showed up and restored some of my faith in the genre
Cipher Peon
Banned
We both thought the FFXV combat system was accessible, intuitive, had great game feel, and a lot of fun. When she fired up FF XV, the difference was instantaneous. She was able to perform actions that she meant to do and had a lot of fun teleporting around stabbing people. And it was simple and easy to understand, which is extraordinarily important.
Platinum Games always suffers heavily from this and is always why I don't think the gameplay for the games I've played of theirs were particularly that good. I do think Nier does a better job being accessible, but it is nowhere near enough. We were both commenting on the lack of moments for the game to teach you clearly about your moveset, which led to her forgetting moves that she had. It isn't my first Platinum Games rodeo so I fared better, but I share her criticisms. Also an aside, but the UI isn't really clear about your health either? We had no idea why our health seemingly fluctuated constantly.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
but FFXV is sluggish, unbalanced, and filled with awful AI. Movelist is incredibly limited, animation lock is present on almost every attacks regardless that the game throws swarms of enemies at you with 0 tells that attack super fast. But since it has 0 balance the game is joke easy since you can just warp strike and jump attack and never get hit because enemies are super dumb
Nier A Demo is the most accessible platinum game I have played. Its the only one where you can get by with just square and R2 without issue. However if you want to delve into being stylish as fuck and create extremely satisfying room clears you can.
The same can be said about FFXV, though. The combat system does give you room to be stylish. But you can also just hold O to attack and Square to dodge, without exploring other options.
I'm not gonna say it's better than Automata's, but I can't really share the negative views on its combat. I think it's great.
Similarly, I think people who said Automata has a shallow combat system are out of their minds, or are just so picky that they wouldn't enjoy almost anything, but given how they're usually comparing it to MGR in these posts, I don't think that's the case.
Finally got around to firing up the ol' PS4 last night to play this demo and the Gravity Rush 2 demo.
After playing both, I wish the Gravity Rush 2 demo were longer...
The combat in Nier is fluid and feels good, but that feeling is erased the second the game takes the camera away from you. I agree with a few posts ago about the camera angles shifting. I was not a big fan of having my camera locked to overhead or side view against my will.
The world seems intriguing, androids vs robots? Alright tell me more... But the art style really wasn't working for me. I didn't play the first Nier, so I don't know, but what's with the toy looking robots and giant orb projectiles? They seemed kind of goofy.
The color scheme of the game and clothing style of 2B kind of gave me a Big O (anime) kind of vibe, which is cool, bit again... Kind of erased by the robot design. I just didn't care for it.
The boss at the end of the demo also felt incredibly tedious to fight, which doesn't make me confident I'd like the final product.
Gravity Rush 2's demo and presentation on the other hand really wowed me...Which I didn't expect.
In a tale of two demos, only one sold me...And it wasn't Nier Automata.
After playing both, I wish the Gravity Rush 2 demo were longer...
The combat in Nier is fluid and feels good, but that feeling is erased the second the game takes the camera away from you. I agree with a few posts ago about the camera angles shifting. I was not a big fan of having my camera locked to overhead or side view against my will.
The world seems intriguing, androids vs robots? Alright tell me more... But the art style really wasn't working for me. I didn't play the first Nier, so I don't know, but what's with the toy looking robots and giant orb projectiles? They seemed kind of goofy.
The color scheme of the game and clothing style of 2B kind of gave me a Big O (anime) kind of vibe, which is cool, bit again... Kind of erased by the robot design. I just didn't care for it.
The boss at the end of the demo also felt incredibly tedious to fight, which doesn't make me confident I'd like the final product.
Gravity Rush 2's demo and presentation on the other hand really wowed me...Which I didn't expect.
In a tale of two demos, only one sold me...And it wasn't Nier Automata.
Cipher Peon
Banned
I do agree that Nier's demo was the most accessible Platinum game that I've played (Bayo 1+2, TW101), but I don't think it's enough. They have to go much farther. I mean, I guess the full game can include a better tutorial, but knowing Plat chances are "eh". And even then that doesn't stop stuff like the top down sections being disorienting and aesthetically dull.
She had a better time than I did even though she struggled more, for what it's worth. But that's because she thought 2B's dress was "cute, but very revealing".
I'm not a big fan of the differences in kind that Platinum throw out constantly, and while I like bullet hells, my mindset isn't in the right framework when I'm playing action games. Also, I didn't know Gravity Rush 2's demo came out
RubberLuffy
Banned
Bullet hell and perspective changes are a NieR thing, not a Platinum thing. Platinum is just being true to NieR with them.
First NieR's opening video
You can see it a few times in this
First NieR's opening video
You can see it a few times in this
Yeah, FFXV really is awful. Sorry about that.
I'll agree that the tutorial in Nier:A is somewhat jarringly simple. When the game put you in combat to start and just told you some button names, I was like "What? I'm already fighting!?"
On the other hand, I think this works alright since the combat is very open-ended (there's no "right" way to play, no scoring system, etc.), the game isn't very punishing on Normal / Easy, the buttons are largely intuitive in their function (fast attack / slow attack / shoot / dodge), and you can always go to the game's excellent menu to customize the controls in the way you see fit. I was surprised at how simple the tutorial was, but I also was surprised to find that it worked for me once I stopped being anxious and just went for it.
Contrast that with Bayonetta's much more extensive tutorial, which involves:
- a cinematic period where you can get used to hitting buttons
- a prologue chapter that throws small numbers of basic enemies at you (iirc you can't even die the first time you do it)
- frequently pauses the turtorial and has you practice actions one at a time
But Bayonetta's also much more challenging on its Normal difficulty, has a scoring system that gives you feedback, and has mechanics that aren't innately intuitive to people who are at least lightly familiar with video games (Witch Time, Bullet Climax, Charge Modifiers).
FFXV's tutorial was long and boring by comparison, but it needs that tutorial because the combat is so all over the place. Things like holding the Warp button to go to Warp points, cover restoring MP / HP, the dodge button being unresponsive (by design), magic recharge, and various mini-cutscene attacks that trigger under certain conditions mean that the game benefits from having a long, dry tutorial. Because none of that stuff is intuitive. If FFXV had no tutorial and just threw you into combat, people would constantly be asking questions about all of the above.
So yeah, basically, I understand where you're coming from on the tutorials. Nier's tutorial is somewhat unnervingly simple, but I think it actually works for this game. There's no ranking, there's no weird inputs, no right way to play, no conditional rules. It's literally just attack / dodge / shoot in whatever way works for you.
---
And to answer your question about why your health was fluctuating: there's an ability you're equipped with that auto-uses healing items (their names pop up briefly when they get used). You can find it by looking around the menus.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's more instruction for the RPG aspects (like that auto-use healing item ability) in the full game. There just isn't much point in introducing it during the demo, since you can't actually do anything with it except turn off the HUD.
On the other hand, I think this works alright since the combat is very open-ended (there's no "right" way to play, no scoring system, etc.), the game isn't very punishing on Normal / Easy, the buttons are largely intuitive in their function (fast attack / slow attack / shoot / dodge), and you can always go to the game's excellent menu to customize the controls in the way you see fit. I was surprised at how simple the tutorial was, but I also was surprised to find that it worked for me once I stopped being anxious and just went for it.
Contrast that with Bayonetta's much more extensive tutorial, which involves:
- a cinematic period where you can get used to hitting buttons
- a prologue chapter that throws small numbers of basic enemies at you (iirc you can't even die the first time you do it)
- frequently pauses the turtorial and has you practice actions one at a time
But Bayonetta's also much more challenging on its Normal difficulty, has a scoring system that gives you feedback, and has mechanics that aren't innately intuitive to people who are at least lightly familiar with video games (Witch Time, Bullet Climax, Charge Modifiers).
FFXV's tutorial was long and boring by comparison, but it needs that tutorial because the combat is so all over the place. Things like holding the Warp button to go to Warp points, cover restoring MP / HP, the dodge button being unresponsive (by design), magic recharge, and various mini-cutscene attacks that trigger under certain conditions mean that the game benefits from having a long, dry tutorial. Because none of that stuff is intuitive. If FFXV had no tutorial and just threw you into combat, people would constantly be asking questions about all of the above.
So yeah, basically, I understand where you're coming from on the tutorials. Nier's tutorial is somewhat unnervingly simple, but I think it actually works for this game. There's no ranking, there's no weird inputs, no right way to play, no conditional rules. It's literally just attack / dodge / shoot in whatever way works for you.
---
And to answer your question about why your health was fluctuating: there's an ability you're equipped with that auto-uses healing items (their names pop up briefly when they get used). You can find it by looking around the menus.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's more instruction for the RPG aspects (like that auto-use healing item ability) in the full game. There just isn't much point in introducing it during the demo, since you can't actually do anything with it except turn off the HUD.
Exentryk
Member
I am of a similar opinion to you, but I can see why some casuals might like XV more. XV's combat is more automated with tracked attacks, auto linkstrikes, auto dodging, etc. All this can be done with basically 2 buttons (Attack and Guard). This makes learning controls really easy.
Automata's design is much less handholdy, and more precise and consistent. Pressing the attack button won't make 2B run up to the enemies; she'll just attack once where she is standing. The player has to play skillfully to figure out distance in a 3D space and direct attacks correctly. Dodging needs to be timed so players need to pay more attention to enemy attacks. Having two buttons for attacks, along with pod shooting and laser abilities on top can make the controls seem complex for casuals. Adjusting to the different cameras will also require time/skill.
Automata caters to casuals too, but does so without dumbing down its gameplay. The easy mode lets people use chips to adjust combat to their comfort levels (auto attack only, auto evade only, etc.). This isn't explained well (or at all) in the demo though, so I don't blame people for not knowing this. The full game might possibly inform players in advance perhaps?
Tell that to all the people freaking out early in the thread because the game didn't have a lot of depth. >_>
People talk as if everyone started doing fucking StarRave on their first playthrough of DMC4, and figured it out on their own.
Depth in this kind of combat will come from exploring all of the different mechanics, weapons, movesets and cancelling abilities, but people who have been playing character action games for many years jumped to conclusions because of the lack of some long combo list or something? Who cares. <_<
potatohead
Member
Ok guys ff vx is really not deserving of being mentioned in this thread especially talking from a gameplay perspective
I saw this video on PGs design philosophy only a few days ago. It's actually about Vanquish, but it ends up speaking on PG broadly because of so many recurring elements in their games. I'm mentioning this because there's a point he makes about depth vs breadth (go to 2:05).
Depth as he interprets it is about combining basic mechanics in ways only more advanced, experienced players will think up. Breadth (which Nier will almost certainly have just being an RPG) is giving the player a wide variety of skills and tools.
I think Nier could be as deep as Bayo, but you can totally have breadth without depth.
Exentryk
Member
This Platinum Games developer blog also explains some of their design philosophies while making NieR Automata. It's a really good read!
Yeah, that definition is spot on. Stylish action combat depth should be about creativity, not just memorization. It was really weird to me to see the amount of people disappointed with the combat from the demo, when it comes to depth.
Yeah, I said this when this was first posted, but the most mindblowing thing here is that their animations are still absolutely top tier, judging on animation alone.
I believe I was even talking directly to you at the time, that when you compare just the animations to other games that prioritize animation over responsiveness, like Witcher 3 or Final Fantasy XV, Automata's animations are still way better. This is incredible.
And another aspect that makes me upset when I read people saying something like "yeah, Platinum can make good gameplay, but they're bad at everything else", as if "gameplay" was just this tiny detail. And I'm not even talking about gameplay vs story here, just the amount of stuff that goes into this huge box called "gameplay". It's not just the overall mechanics. Enemy design, level design, encounters, boss fights, animations, down to the very basic controls and framedata, there's so much that goes into gameplay that reducing it as "just gameplay" feels wrong.
Hell, even graphics. You kind of need satisfying visual feedback for the combat to feel good. You can have all of the complex inputs you have in a great stylish hard action game, but if you're just looking at two static boxes and damage numbers going up, it won't feel good to play at all.
I wouldn't restrict depth to just the building blocks of basics. Hidden tech, whether due to exploiting of the game engine or whatever, for example, adds a lot to the depth of a game, too. And we already have a number of things in that regard that were discovered from just the demo alone.
This is exactly me. I went into it saying "Oh look another demo to not like" but wow, this really got me into it! A well done demo, I want more
RPGCrazied
Member
I ordered the game cause of the demo it was that great, sad there isn't a SE though with a steelbook or something. The Black Edition or whatever is called is too much.
Exentryk
Member
Yeah, absolutely! Amazing work here!
I didn't realize that Platinum was doing dev blogs for Nier. Their insights are always so interesting. Thanks for that!
100% agreed. I'm playing through Bayonetta right now and it's a work of craftsmanship from top to bottom.
Couldn't agree more! He covers this in the video, too. It's honestly just a great watch if you're interested on the topic of depth in games at all.
Oh man. Thanks for linking this!
Download it and find out?
I mean, it's free, and it's a very well made demo, objectively speaking. Give it a try and who knows? Maybe you'll join us anime boys and get hyped.
Glad you're enjoying it! I could probably write a short essay on why Bayo1's story is smarter than people give it credit for, but I'll resist the urge since this is a Nier thread.
The dialogue and voice acting in Bayo1 is absolutely top tier, which is all the more impressive given that it's made by a Japanese dev. JP's translation is superb, and Hellena Taylor's performance is perfection.
New headcanon: when 2B gets to the last area of the demo, she says...
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Does the game have dual audio?
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Neat. It's gonna kill me trying to decide between them, though.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I predict a ghost town of an OT thread come release day in the West, Zelda's coming out the following week.
¯\_(ツ
Ffffuck Zelda.
I really enjoyed the dub myself.
Exentryk
Member
@yokotaro
Not sure how much of an overlap there will be between Zelda fans and NieR/Platinum fans. Let's see.
Google translate:
I predict a ghost town of an OT thread come release day in the West, Zelda's coming out the following week.
¯\_(ツ
Not sure how much of an overlap there will be between Zelda fans and NieR/Platinum fans. Let's see.
Poor Taro.
killatopak
Gold Member
hoping taro the best cause the switch, from a day 1 buyer's perspective, sucks.
ExitPlanetDust
Member
You guys weren't kidding, NieR is depressing.
therearedozenofus.gif
TissueBox
Member
*hugs Taro*
C'mon you 35 Nier fans, let's show the love come Feb/March!!
It is a sucky time window though.