Dark Cloud
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I feel like an idiot -.-
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Nintendo NX rumored to use Nvidia's Pascal GPU architecture
- Thread starter nhlducks35
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Dark Cloud
Member
Can you please repost their rumors? I forgot them lol
16nmFF is 60% more power efficient. Upper limit depends on the size. If it's handheld then supposedly it'll need to be closer to 2W but if it's a tablet then could be closer to 10W.
James Scott
Banned
Probably not
Eolz
Member
Some are likely real, some aren't. The only stuff they usually get right are from Ubisoft and from retailers. They usually are far off with most third parties and power/technical related ones.
Just means they heard from someone before Sony made it official. If they had guessed it weeks or months in advance would lend more weight. Saying a day or 2 before yo its going to be X isn't very special
Eolz
Member
They've really changed their tone since the eurogamer post. Still super optimistic about it, but not talking about close to Neo anymore (but able to get PS4 ports easily), this kind of stuff.
(Also "operation "reconquer"" was a super bad translation, way too literal, closer to "winning back the heart/market/etc of" )
Because NX is not a laptop and has limited space for chips on top of being much cheaper than the cost of a laptop with a dGPU.
I'll carry the close to neo dream for them.
Let's assume the rumors are true, and the NX will be a portable tablet-style system using Nvidia tegra tech to power it. What will this thing cost? What should it cost?
My poorly researched estimate will be roughly $199-$249. This is based on a few factors. The Nvidia shield would be very similar device, and Nvidia, like Nintendo, likes to profit on their hardware, but I doubt Nintendo requires the margins Nvidia does since they also make money on software. The shield costs $199 but has no screen, making me concerned nintendo could hit a $199 price point with a built in touch screen.
I can't imagine nintendo wants this thing to cost more than 250. The 3ds was 250 and that was a massive blunder. But since nintendo stated that they won't lose money on the haddware, I can't imagine it costing less than 199 with tegra hardware and a touch panel.
For this reason I also expect the panel to be small. Like 3ds xl sized, not 8-10 tablet sized. Then again, I don't think thermals of a tegra would be ok inside a phone-sized casing.
My poorly researched estimate will be roughly $199-$249. This is based on a few factors. The Nvidia shield would be very similar device, and Nvidia, like Nintendo, likes to profit on their hardware, but I doubt Nintendo requires the margins Nvidia does since they also make money on software. The shield costs $199 but has no screen, making me concerned nintendo could hit a $199 price point with a built in touch screen.
I can't imagine nintendo wants this thing to cost more than 250. The 3ds was 250 and that was a massive blunder. But since nintendo stated that they won't lose money on the haddware, I can't imagine it costing less than 199 with tegra hardware and a touch panel.
For this reason I also expect the panel to be small. Like 3ds xl sized, not 8-10 tablet sized. Then again, I don't think thermals of a tegra would be ok inside a phone-sized casing.
Source? From what i remember from Intel's 22nm papers FinFET provides 30% less power consumption and since 16nm is only nominal (the die sizes are not actually smaller compared to planar 20nm) i think the only benefit comes from FinFET alone.
I will be the one guy going out on the limb.
I will say this Mobile NX device revealed next month will have a 7 inch screen, perhaps 720P screen, it will be a Pascal based Tegra chip that will be clocked higher than we all think.
The dock will charge and provide upscaling to 1080p and allow the chip to run at full power. It'll be marketed as "Play your way."
Simple. Elegant marketing.
Graphics Horse
Member
Looking at those old Gameblog rumours it doesn't seem unbelievable, but also not that interesting.
The part about connecting 8 devices sounds sensible if they are introducing something like a revamped Wii remote & nunchuck but without the cord between them.
The part about connecting 8 devices sounds sensible if they are introducing something like a revamped Wii remote & nunchuck but without the cord between them.
In my opinion, there wouldn't be much to discuss because there aren't many of those people on here that believe that Nintendo is using AMD with x86 etc as the vendor for NX.
It all boils down to Nvidia not announcing a semi-custom win or announcing that they licensed out their tech as someone pointed out that it's what Nvidia mainly does apparently, licensing out and not doing semi-custom designs.
Then there's the fact that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. This is with regards to the, "AMD announced to investors 3 semi-custom design wins but Nvidia haven't therefore..."
Also, we've had game journalists have info on Dwango, Osiris, Scorpio, Neo. They'd surely have info on NX but apparently, revealing that Nintendo is using Nvidia as revealed by Eurogamer, Kotaku, WSJ (Weekly Shonen Jump
) means that it's a "conspiracy theory!" according to a particular person. I'm sure that if NX really was using AMD as a vendor, another site like IGN or something equivalent would have claimed the current rumours to be not true and give their own scoop to get clicks.Finally, let's not forget we haven't had any insiders such as developers just waltz right into the Eurogamer NX rumour thread and just say, "No". We all know how entertaining that would have been.
The current NX rumours haven't so easily been debunked and it's been a couple of weeks now. There was already an NX "leaked" controller and lots of Reddit and NeoGAF "insiders" that gave their insider information on NX but found themselves clashed with other insiders in dispute of particular rumours.
That's the summary of events and hopefully things start to clear up before Nintendo even has to show off the NX. It's too bad we probably won't see during Nvidia's webcast if an investor asks about NX and the CEO reacts like, "NX, NX? What you cooking?... *Looks around, knocks jug of water over and runs off*"
They developed a more power efficient 16nmFF+ which has more or less taken over for 16nmFF. There is of course a lower cost 16nmFFC
But it doesn't sound impressive because the Wii U can connect up to 9 controllers.
Runbow uses a combination of the Wii U Gamepad and 8 Wii U Pro Controllers/Wii Remotes.
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
I saw the 60% number get passed around before as well, but I'm not sure where it came from. When I saw it previously, it was talking about the move from the Maxwell X1 to the Pascal X2, but that seems suspiciously specific for a product we know basically nothing about.
Thanks, here is my mockup based on wii u ... food for thought
Very cool!
They have that modular controller patent, and while just a patent, I could see Nintendo doing modular parts like this as long as those parts were useful! Like a LEGO controller!
Good figuring! I'm betting $200 ($150 if it's "weakened" somehow internally), adding on $50 for a worthy bundle (special case and a game cartridge with a downloaded game in it...I'm an optimist!). Touch screens don't have to run up the cost as much as it's figured, but it may also be dependent on if the screen is free form (as was originally said two years ago that Sharp was doing this for Nintendo) or some random thing. Maybe it'll be bendable for all I know?!
Another optimist! I'm thinking 6-7 inch screen too, leaving open the "form factors" in the future for a smaller 3-5 one and a larger 9 inch one down the road. (Why not?!) The NPad.
In my opinion, there wouldn't be much to discuss because there aren't many of those people on here that believe that Nintendo is using AMD with x86 etc as the vendor for NX.
It all boils down to Nvidia not announcing a semi-custom win or announcing that they licensed out their tech as someone pointed out that it's what Nvidia mainly does apparently, licensing out and not doing semi-custom designs.
Then there's the fact that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. This is with regards to the, "AMD announced to investors 3 semi-custom design wins but Nvidia haven't therefore..."
Also, we've had game journalists have info on Dwango, Osiris, Scorpio, Neo. They'd surely have info on NX but apparently, revealing that Nintendo is using Nvidia as revealed by Eurogamer, Kotaku, WSJ (Weekly Shonen Jump
Finally, let's not forget we haven't had any insiders such as developers just waltz right into the Eurogamer NX rumour thread and just say, "No". We all know how entertaining that would have been.
The current NX rumours haven't so easily been debunked and it's been a couple of weeks now. There was already an NX "leaked" controller and lots of Reddit and NeoGAF "insiders" that gave their insider information on NX but found themselves clashed with other insiders in dispute of particular rumours.
That's the summary of events and hopefully things start to clear up before Nintendo even has to show off the NX. It's too bad we probably won't see during Nvidia's webcast if an investor asks about NX and the CEO reacts like, "NX, NX? What you cooking?... *Looks around, knocks jug of water over and runs off*"
Good summary so far!
Also, I'd love to see some water jugs get knocked over!
Graphics Horse
Member
Yeah Smash Bros does too iirc. I guess it doesn't really say anything
And Smash Bros for Wii U even allows you to use your 3DS as a controller. How innovative.
It's from the official TSMC site, the industry in taiwan that produce the chips.
Source: http://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/technology/16nm.htm
Regarding what Eradicate said above about a bundled game, I hadn't previously thought about it much before reading his post but in reading it now I agree, I think it's a safe bet that Nintendo will include some kind of game with the system to show off its features. Wii had Wii Sports and Wii U had Nintendo Land so I suspect NX in being positioned as a handheld and console will come with a game of some kind also, presumably one that shows off the system's uniqueness.
Thank you.
I knew about 16nmFF+ but sincerely didn't imagine it was that more efficient than normal 16nmFF.
60% more efficiency from FF+ plus a little bit more from Pascal and it can lead to very interesting scenarios...
Thanks for this, it's very interesting because there shouldn't be much issue with yields.
michaelius
Banned
edit: sorry my mistake in reading
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
Xenoblade X : Good face edition (Open World gaming in the palm trees your hands)
Err... Does this mean, that WHILE 40% faster, it is ALSO 60% more power efficient on TOP of that? As in, it will perform 40% better than TX1 WHILE consuming 60% less power? Or either one or the other?
Well, anyone that knows it's current clockspeed and wattage should know.
So we are estimating a 40% increase in clock speed and a 60% reduction in wattage.
If that makes any sense.
Edit: Referencing a random article:
Tegra X1 GPU has 1GHz clock speed, would it manage to get to 1.4GHz while decreasing the wattage by 40%?
Edit 2: Referencing this article http://www.anandtech.com/show/8811/nvidia-tegra-x1-preview/3
They were testing the X1 and claim the GPU was running at 1.5W for their tests using "Manhattan"?
So if we just took a 40% reduction in that as if it mean nothing.
Then it would go down to 0.9W?
Of course this is just guess work so dispute it.
Sure, but it would be a much larger jump from TX1 than me (most of us) were expecting. That would theoretically mean it might push around 700Gflops while drawing less than half the power? This could be huge especially for "handheld" mode (if there even is a dock mode).
Maybe Thraktor or equivalent nerd
<3 Thraktor
This sounds like such a big piece of crap I can't even understand why people gives them credit.
"Operation reconquer", lol.
Yes, what i quoted. But their wording is interesting:
"above 65 percent higher speed, around 2 times the density, or 70 percent less power than its 28HPM technology"
"Comparing with 20SoC technology, 16FF+ provides extra 40% higher speed and 60% power saving."
That's why i'm asking. I'm still thinking it's either 60% more efficient OR 40% faster?
It's probably saying 'or' to this part where I bolded. I assume they're using density as a measurement and converting it to watts.
Edit: It's more dense so it probably takes up less space (hence the die shrink) and possibly means less energy is lost as heat so then would mean it's more energy efficient.
Reconquer (in French reconquête) isn't as strong meaning as in English, it just mean getting back some lost audience in this context and not getting all gamers on a Nintendo platform.
By the way, I hope nobody is expecting "PS4 Neo" power anymore, which invalidate this rumor, even more that it's supposedly an hybrid.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Haven't seen anyone aside from SMD expecting this. The vast majority of people in these threads have reasonable expectations.
Yes, I would agree with you on the or assumption. Take a look at their 20nm page, the wording they use there seems to be the case, as they don't use the word and:
Keep in mind as I just pointed out, they keep saying 'or' when they reference density.
It is more dense so it is taking up less space, hence it should be having less energy lost as heat when running so it should be more power efficient.
With your one it should be 1.4GHz at (Wrong wattage). However I am assuming this 60% energy efficiency is linear until there is real world performance to show if it ends up using more Watts because it is losing more energy due to heat loss as it requires more work.
Edit: I probably read it wrong
It could be that it manages 1.4GHz at 6.4W
Power and Speed are not linear. In general, the higher the frequence, the more you have to spend (in term of watts) for each increase you want. That's why you can go at half power and get 80% of the frequence speed or something like that. Would need a graph.
Compared to 20nm Planar, not 16nmFF.
I should note that they say that:
Yet when comparing the current desktop Pascal cards to their Maxwell counterparts, efficiency anywhere from 45-69% better depending on the card, game, and resolution. Also, the gap closes the lower the resolution gets. (Also, the density improvement is around 1.9x at best.) One big thing which should help NX over the Tegra X1 though is if it has a 128-bit bus. 50 GB/s + Pascal compression should be a good boost over the X1 at similar clock speeds.
As said above, it's not linear. That's why you can get better efficiency from running more cores at lower clocks than less cores at higher clocks.
That's why I said assume because they made it sound good on paper when I assume it would require more power to do work at that frequency because of energy lost as heat.
Thanks for confirming that though.
Nooooo stop!
You're giving the dock people some ammo!
"It's the dock! The dock I tells you! The dock will give NX all the power!"
/jk
ChrisMahoney
Banned
Intel did this with their iGPUs as well.
But less power means higher clock ? no ? So it's still more power in the end!
No, more power efficient means they "could" decide to clock it higher (because less power = less heat). So, it's either 40% more powerful at the same power draw, or it's equally powerful at 60% less power draw... if i'm understanding it correctly. They could of course chose to go for something a bit more powerful (+/-20%) while still drawing (+/-30%) less power.
But considering this is also for a handheld, i'm pretty sure Nintendo will go for the 60% less power draw.
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