Mr. Pointy
Member
You're right. Nintendo will aim for original Game boy levels of power draw. We'll be lucky if it can run 3DS games in 2D at 160p resolution.
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Nintendo NX rumored to use Nvidia's Pascal GPU architecture
- Thread starter nhlducks35
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Theonik
Member
lmftfy
3DS lost money at $180, right? Its battery was estimated at $3.50, its RAM + flash at $8.36, its SoC + PCB (among other things) at $20.81, and its screens at $33.80. I thinbk that, realistically, hitting $200 without selling at a loss is somewhere between hard and impossible without being much, much closer to Wii U in power.
Kissenkopf
Banned
Oh come on now. Don't be stupid...
I doubt the NX will be less powerful than the 3DS or what do you think?
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
Who knew that Nintendo was really going to take the concept of withered tech all the way? But we'll get a sick widescreen display out of it!
Chittagong
Gold Member
Have we discussed already the option of NX being a reverse Wii U? I mean, Nintendo integrated some pretty nuts lagless streaming tech to the gamepad. And they like to reuse their tech. So what if the "NX dock" is simply a receiver with that streaming tech, and the portable console stays in your hands, running same speed regardless of whether you view the game on the portable screen or stream to TV.
Theonik
Member
It worked with the DS and Game and Watch right?
Keep in mind that the most expensive component in these devices (3DS, Vita, smartphones) is almost always the screen, usually by some margin. Nintendo is very likely to be using a pretty cheap screen in NX, perhaps saving as much as $20-$25 in cost compared to the 3DS. Push that money into the SoC & RAM, and you can actually get a pretty capable machine for ~$200 (especially as the lower resolution screen is less demanding on the GPU).
I like this idea. I think this is a very Nintendo like solution.
lwilliams3
Member
The 3DS wasn't the most energy or cost-efficient device ever. They added 3D late in development, so they had to double the GPU power, used newer tech 3D screens that requires twice the light, and more probably after they designed the form factor and department for the battery. I think it is safe to assume that Nintendo will be more careful this time.
I think that all of the 5-inch estimations are horribly misguided, though. It doesn't fit with the rumored design at all. Is a $10 6" 720p screen even possible without it being the cheapest, ugliest LCD known to man?
Graphics Horse
Member
Yeah I expect it will do both, Eurogamer said it was the essentially the reverse of Wii U and didn't specify the connection had to be physical.
I think the guy hinted on Twitter that dual screen might still be possible too.
Except the fact that streaming a low quality 480p stream with a console AC plugged is doable, streaming a 1080p stream from a portable on battery is way, way harder and would kill your battery extremely fast.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
VitaTV draws roughly 2-3W as well
Problem with that solution is that you still play with a portable ergonomic on a tv. Also you're not charging the battery.
Yes, we've heard the reverse Wii U idea before and LCGeek even mentioned that but, didn't want to specify which poster said it. (?)
It sounds like a good idea for ease of porting Wii U games since dual screen could still be an option. They probably wouldn't do the same thing to DS and 3DS games, maybe.
Question is as mentioned, the NX would probably have to be connected to AC adapter assuming it is streaming a high res screen.
Edit: oh damn it. It sucks typing on phone.
michaelius
Banned
And it's bad for marketing since most gamers think that streaming=lag.
this is the first thing I thought when I read the EQ article. That the dock was essentially the same thing as the Wii U dock. Just a stand that provides power. And you would plug some HDMI dongle into the TV that would receive the image or something.
Though I am not sure if it is a good idea or not.
Edit: well a bit different than what you are saying. But still using the streaming tech none the less.
The article specifically says that it connects to the TV via the dock.
ah yeah, you are right, but they didnt say how it would connect to the TV. Probably wired though.
But you need to consider the resolution as well. Unlike everyone here, I just can't see 540p happening if this doesn't run in an underclocked mode while mobile and at full clocks while docked. If there are no different power modes, it just has to be a 720p handheld. And for screen size, 5 inches just doesn't work in terms of the rumored design. 7" makes the most sense, but 6" can maybe work. 5 is just silly. So, the size plus the resolution means that the screen can't be much than $20, I think. The RAM is an issue too. I guess 4GB is the max, but that's really not all that good at all. Finally there's the SoC. That's just a whole mess and I have no idea how to make that work unless Nintendo somehow got an insane deal. I really don't know what to think here. I think that the total BOM needs to be under $130 for them to not lose money at $200.
$50. The SoC was $16.
Edit: What if... I'm trying to think hard on this one... What if the speed is actually completely variable with a maximum cap, and devs can choose how high they want the colock speed to be, with being on-battery or on AC as a consideration?
I think a 5-inch screen might be possible. Of course the two deatachable controllers need to be big enough, so you can hold them side way and use them as a single controller, but e.g. I have right here in my room a remote with the size of ca. 4 cm x 10.5 cm, and if I hold it sideways it would be comfortable enough to use them as a gamepad.
A 5-inch screen would have the height of 6cm. I think that would be possible from a form design to fit in.
Of course it could be that we will get a more tablet size handheld. And I would love to see that. But I wouldn't exclude a DS sized one, yet.
True, but for cost reasons I wouldn't expect a full blown x2 chip, it will be custom, so cut down, but with some specific nintendo features that might make up for it being cut down, at least somewhat.
And then if it even has a docked performance mode. Potable wattage will be a limiting factor. I wouldnt even expect sheld tv level of visuals in portable mode, unless it is a 540p screen and not 720p or 1080p. Regardless nintendo will make some nifty looking stuff coming from the 3ds. I can see wii u level or slightly better visuals in portable mode, but i wouldn't expect much more than that.
That's kind of a problem though if there isn't a docked performance mode, as they will again be woefully underpowered in the tv space. I won't even bother plugging in the dock if all I'm doing is upscaling 540p content. At 65 inches it will look like garbage, even upscaled to 4k. Xbox one 720p titles and wii u titles already don't look so hot.
I'd like to think that Nintendo would go for the 3SM configuration to get decent performance because I'd want to think that they'd do it for efficiency regardless of the extra cost.
Still, what would be customised on the SoC besides ARM A53/A72 CPU cores and LPDDR4 RAM? And whether things would be increased in power if it was a tablet-sized handheld rather than a Vita-sized handheld.
It's a just a thought.
I'm assuming you are talking about how the PSP was underclocked to conserve battery power and then homebrewers unlocked the CPU speed allowing it to increase.
If it was that close to Wii U, people would be using that as a comparison. The worst we've heard is "between PS3 and PS4," but most have been using the Xbox One as a comparison point.
Edit: 540 undocked to 1080 docked makes more sense. A simple upscaler isn't putting a lot of silicon in the dock, and there's guaranteed to be some silicon in there anyway for controller handling. Even if it's not the supplemental computing thing, a smooth upscaler is not out of the question.
They'd get a lot of flack if their next console was 720p max, no matter if it's meant to be handheld first.
Ah those are the only numbers I know. Sorry. Maybe deduce the SoC wattage based on what screens and wifi chips and such use and subtract?
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
I'm very surprised we haven't really gotten any substantial new rumors since that initial rush. I was expecting a more consistent drip until the full reveal.
The calm before the storm.
Clamp down from the top.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I still say that was a controlled leak.
Skittzo0413
Member
Yeah it's a bit surprising how little we still really know, considering that was supposed to be the huge leak.
Do we have evidence that Nintendo has ever done a controlled leak before?
Mr. Pointy
Member
I personally would like to see a 5" 540p NX standard and a 7" 720p NX XL, with bigger battery and higher base clocks in portable mode.
Both capable of plugging into the same dock.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
No, but I think things seem to be changing in Nintendo corporate.
If LCGeek is right about the CPU being more powerful than the Xbox One by a decent amount, I'm curious what advantages that could hold with 3rd party titles. It's an interesting situation in comparison with the Wii U. In this situation the NX could have a significantly weaker GPU, but a CPU that could possibly compare to the PS4K (Not mind blowing obviously, but comparable)
The GPU part depends on if Nintendo goes with the X2 or not. If so, Nintendo may be able to squeeze enough power out of the NX to compare it to the Xbox One while in Dock Mode (which, for the sake of this argument, would allow the NX to run at full clock speed at minimum), which would come in handy for third party ports while taking advantage of the stronger CPU. Of course, this depends on how powerful the X2 is.
My thinking is that they likely want to deliver on both sides of the spectrum. I believe they are aware that, to make this work, they need to deliver a great handheld experience, but also an adequate console experience. Otherwise, theres no point in going in this direction. I don't believe Nintendo simply threw an HDMI port on a decently powered handheld and called it a day, I'm sure they have thought of some smart ways to make the experience enjoyable on both ends. I totally see them trying to reach as close to console power in dock mode as possible to really nail the hybrid aspect. X2 makes the most sense, and Nvidia working with Nintendo makes me just a bit more confident. If they do go with Pascal, and reach somewhere near Xbox One in dock mode, and have a superior CPU, that should allow them to nab some big 3rd party titles and tout the fact that you can bring it anywhere with you. I'd obviously love a 2.5 TF Nintendo console, and was hoping for it earlier this year, but BoTW on a near Xbox One powered console sounds good enough to blow me away.
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
You know, actually thinking about it, it reminds me of how we got that huge PS Neo blowout months ago (including documentation!) and then it went silent. With that, it seemed to me like there was the original leak followed by potentially a controlled leak that was damage control via putting out all the policies. Perhaps the silence isn't that unusual, and this was a similar thing to keep expectations in check. Who knows.
And if I recall, Nvidia's measurement of flops is around 1.15-1.3 to one of AMD's flops (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only going off of memory here). In this case, while the NX in Dock Mode may be weaker than the x86 Twins on paper, real world performance may be comparable to the Xbox One in Dock Mode. I believe Emily Rogers made a similar argument for on-paper performance vs. real world performance in one of her previous tweets.
lwilliams3
Member
I was talking to Blu about this the other day. Here are some things we came up with.
- The NX could end up with one of the faster CPUs of this gen.
It could even be up to par or faster than the one in Neo, since it is not necessary for the CPU to increase as much for 4K resolution compared to the GPU. Going by LCGeek's info, the system will likely have the most CPU-centric design among all consoles.
- This is a huge turnaround from the Wii U's design
The Wii U's hardware has been constantly criticized for its relatively tiny CPU. While the GPU's power has been a disappointment for those who follow the WUST, devs didn't seem to have as many problems with it in comparison to the CPU. It is one of the reasons why the Frostbite engine couldn't run well on the Wii U, and was likely one of the reasons EA was so quick to drop game development for the system.
Perhaps this shouldn't be a surprise, though. Miyamoto subtlety admitted that CPU power was an issue as far as the development of Pikmin, and he recently mentioned "CPU power" when someone asked him what would a next-gen system bring to the table. We also recently found out that Nintendo doubled the CPU cores and tripled the max speed of the ARM11s from the original 3DS to the n3DS. It seems that Nintendo is done with severely limiting the CPU of their systems.
- It is more important for the CPU to be up to par with the other systems, even in portable mode.
Unlike the GPU, the tasks that are usually giving to the CPU are alot harder to scale down. This gave Nintendo some grief when they tried to port certain games from the Wii U to the 3DS. For this system to be a proper hybrid, the CPU can't be clocked down as aggressively as the GPU could when it's in portable mode. The strength of the CPU is also more important for third parties developers. Even with a weaker GPU that will result to some effects and polygon models to be toned down, certain aspects like physics, background tasks, etc will be able to work as well as the other systems (assuming that it also has a good memory system). This will give Nintendo an advantage with ports that basically screwed them with the Wii U.
Overall, having a good CPU in the system is a good thing, and will be needed to make this hybrid idea work.
That's a huge departure from when we thought the GPGPU in the Wii U would be significant in helping to off-load CPU tasks.
I can't comment on anything else with regards to CPU stuff like brute forcing code etc.
Especially the part about CPU's not being scalable because of instruction sets etc.
Main problem wasn't the power of the cpu cores but the number of them.
I think it's safe to assume DQX and DQXI were, especially now that we have solid confirmation of DQX coming to it. You don't have a guy at a Press Conference go 'yup, it's coming to NX' and then expect people to believe you when you walk it back.
Probably only one, just like the Wii U & the 3DS. But I wouldn't be shocked if the NX itself had an NFC chip under the screen.
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