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Peter Moore on 360 failure rates: "ya know, things break"
- Thread starter Zombie James
- Start date
The internet does have the effect of magnifying the problems to those who frequent it....
To add balance to those who have had 3 or more break on them, I have around 20 people on my friends list, with 10 or more friends who don't connect their 360's to live and I know of no issues with any of the 360's they own.
Mine has gone back, but it was only because I was being picky when I got a few dirty disc errors playing oblivion. I had to lie to MS to get them to take it back. It came back with a new drive and all has been perfect since, and the thing gets hammered. Some on my friends list have gamerscores of over 30,000.....Thats a lot of gaming.
With stories of billion dollar viral marketing campaigns in action for all major consumer products I don't believe that all of the stories you hear on forums across the net are actually true. I don't doubt that some have had issues, as this can be the case with anything you buy.
To add balance to those who have had 3 or more break on them, I have around 20 people on my friends list, with 10 or more friends who don't connect their 360's to live and I know of no issues with any of the 360's they own.
Mine has gone back, but it was only because I was being picky when I got a few dirty disc errors playing oblivion. I had to lie to MS to get them to take it back. It came back with a new drive and all has been perfect since, and the thing gets hammered. Some on my friends list have gamerscores of over 30,000.....Thats a lot of gaming.
With stories of billion dollar viral marketing campaigns in action for all major consumer products I don't believe that all of the stories you hear on forums across the net are actually true. I don't doubt that some have had issues, as this can be the case with anything you buy.
Well, M$ just isn't a hardware company. It's expected.
My PS3 on the other hand, has flown from Hong Kong to Tibet, over the Himalayas, across northern India and Russia, down through Europe into London Heathrow with simulatenously bad weather in each region on the way - and three months later still hasn't had a single malfunction.
But M$ i a software company, and the dashboard in many areas is significantly better than the XMB/PSN (primarily that there is a UI distinction between the XMB and PSN)
My PS3 on the other hand, has flown from Hong Kong to Tibet, over the Himalayas, across northern India and Russia, down through Europe into London Heathrow with simulatenously bad weather in each region on the way - and three months later still hasn't had a single malfunction.
But M$ i a software company, and the dashboard in many areas is significantly better than the XMB/PSN (primarily that there is a UI distinction between the XMB and PSN)
kitch9 said:
Except of course for 360 failure stories being persistent and widespread. It wouldn't surprise me if it keeps happening to the same people if their replacement 360 is subjected to the same conditions that triggered the issue the first time around. A quick google around will show you most people believe the cause to be heat causing board flex and unseating BGA connections of the CPU & GPU. This would appear to be confirmed since the Elite also holds the edges of the CPU & GPU down with glue.
Peter Moore said:
Dear Mr Moore,
I´m sorry, but Your comments make me sick.
Let me elaborate: I bought my 360 off eBay, in March 2006. It was rarely used by the former owner. All in all it served me very well, until it died this April.
Well, normally this shouldn´t be a problem. I´m german, and we have this mandatory two years of warranty. So I did what has to be done - and called the Microsoft service.
To my utter amazement (and, of course, anger), they explained to me, that the former owner had tied the serial number to his (now defunct) Live Account. And thus the warranty only is for him.
Wait, what?! I still have the receipt, I officially bought it - but the warranty is not for me? They explained -in all earnesty I might add- that I should find out the address of this former owner, send him the box and ask him to have it serviced for me. ARE YOU KIDDING?!?
Well, I know in the end You will be simply laughing at me, because by now I bought myself another 360. I have simply been unable to find someone reliable in germany, where I can get the olde 360 repaired.
You know what? In the end You may be right - its all about how You treated Your customer. Let´s just say I´m not a happy panda right now.
Regards,
Hammer24
Yixian said:
This doesn't explain Windows up until XP (and even then, with all the security leaks!)
Listen guys, I don't care how you spin this shit, there's no excuse for this shit. 15%, 22%, 50%, it's all the same. This is a problem Microsoft should have fixed god knows how long ago. People's 360's are gonna keep breaking and they are gonna keep getting faulty shitty normal 360's, why? Because Microsoft wants you suckers to buy an Elite.
If you haven't had your 360 break, just wait, it's ****ing inevitable.
I can't say I'm really surprised. It should be pretty obvious the folks at Microsoft are going to blame any and everything else for this problem long before they'll admit they produce faulty hardware. It's their business practice... a shitty one, but the one they stick to none the less.
Jamesfrom818
Banned
I really want to hop onto the 360 train but reliability issues really prevent me from doing so.
Densha Otoko
Member
Jamesfrom818 said:
Same, I just got my tax return and it wants to turn into a 360.
I loathe MS XBox division but...
1) MS never was and still isn't a HW company. And no, MS mice or MS gamepads do not count.
2) MS is a software company first. Windows, SQL, Dynamics and dozens of other products.
3) MS software had, has and always will have millions of problems.
4) If you can't make your software just 'good' then how could one believe that they could make 'good' hardware.
5) That brings us to the Xbox (1) which was a tank.
6) PARADOX
On one hand MS isn't Sony, Nintendo or SEGA - they never did HW, only software. On the other hand they make a tremendous quality console - Xbox.
So you can't simply blame them but you have to in the same time.
Weird situation (for a company).
1) MS never was and still isn't a HW company. And no, MS mice or MS gamepads do not count.
2) MS is a software company first. Windows, SQL, Dynamics and dozens of other products.
3) MS software had, has and always will have millions of problems.
4) If you can't make your software just 'good' then how could one believe that they could make 'good' hardware.
5) That brings us to the Xbox (1) which was a tank.
6) PARADOX
On one hand MS isn't Sony, Nintendo or SEGA - they never did HW, only software. On the other hand they make a tremendous quality console - Xbox.
So you can't simply blame them but you have to in the same time.
Weird situation (for a company).
sp0rsk said:
Especially true points.
As a long time gamer, I have *never* had a console die on me until my 360. Luckily it was in-warranty (just). But damn, I know how to look after hardware as do 99% of people posting on GAF I would imagine. Failure is never acceptable and it should never be "expected". Sadly, with 360, it is.
I dont care how much I am looking forward to Halo 3, Alan Wake, Mass Effect etc ... (and this would be equally the same for any other system if it were my main machine) ... I am always one bad experience away from dumping that product entirely. There is enough good content, be it on PC, PS3 or Wii for me to forget about 360 entirely.
Financially, I can only afford one next gen console for the time being (and keep buying s/w for it). It so happens that 360 is the machine for me right now. However, if my 360 broke down out of warranty and I hypothetically had to choose between Halo 3 on a system with a suspect build quality, or MGS4 on PS3 (both series I absolutely love), I could forgo the chance to play the former, and opt for MGS4 on reliable hardware if need be, with no regrets all.
Hardware manufacturers shouldn't take their userbase for granted. If it's shit quality, enough people will be burned and not look back. Already, people who come to my store ask about getting another 360 who have already had their last one fail. I cant honestly recommend the system to anyone who has had it fail. On software alone, 360 is awesome. On hardware considerations, not so much. The old saying that comes to mind is this: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
If you get screwed around, don't ever let it come to the second time.
And substitute 360 for any other system based on your own horror stories. This can apply to anything.
TheDarkKnight774
Member
sp0rsk said:
I agree. I have a launch X360 and it works, but i feel its on borrowed time.
So defects are running rampant, clearly more than the competition and MS's response?
"Ya know, things break" - Peter Moore.
Things break? That's your response? WTF?!! Its a $400 piece of hardware that is dying at a rapid rate.
I'll admit that I'm somewhat pulling this number out of my ass, but based on anecdotal evidence (i.e. everyone I know has replaced their 360 at least one time, and two of them more than once), I think the failure rate is probably closer to 50%, if not even higher.
That being said, I agree with Moore's general comment, where, if you read between the lines he basically said, "We know we have a shitty product, but all we can do now is ensure that we make the repair process as smooth as possible for the consumer." The problem is, they're not doing that either. One of the guys mentioned above (who would be on his 3rd 360 now) just said to hell with it and didn't bother replacing his 360 for a third time. He ended up getting a PS3. When he called Microsoft customer support, they told him it was ~150 bucks to repair the machine even though it was about a month out of warranty. Warranties shouldn't even matter when it's clearly apparent that this is bad hardware. So if that's considered treating your customer well, I'd be scared to see what treating your customer poorly is like.
That being said, I agree with Moore's general comment, where, if you read between the lines he basically said, "We know we have a shitty product, but all we can do now is ensure that we make the repair process as smooth as possible for the consumer." The problem is, they're not doing that either. One of the guys mentioned above (who would be on his 3rd 360 now) just said to hell with it and didn't bother replacing his 360 for a third time. He ended up getting a PS3. When he called Microsoft customer support, they told him it was ~150 bucks to repair the machine even though it was about a month out of warranty. Warranties shouldn't even matter when it's clearly apparent that this is bad hardware. So if that's considered treating your customer well, I'd be scared to see what treating your customer poorly is like.
My reasoning is that every launch 360 is destined to failure, and the vast majority of people here and those who vote in Internet polls are early adopters. My launch 360 died just after the 1-year warranty had expired and was replaced for free by MS. AFIAK, all of the consoles manufactured in 2005 are covered. I know a few people with post 1/1/2006 360s and none have had failures. My replacement 360 has also been faultless, so far.
If the death rate for these launch units is well over 50%, and most of us here were in early, it isnt hard to see how things might look much worse than they really are. It could be ~500,000 or 5 million. We might get the same result either way.
Does anybody really believe there are millions of dead Xbox360s out there (not counting multiple dodgy refurbs)? I don't.
If the death rate for these launch units is well over 50%, and most of us here were in early, it isnt hard to see how things might look much worse than they really are. It could be ~500,000 or 5 million. We might get the same result either way.
Does anybody really believe there are millions of dead Xbox360s out there (not counting multiple dodgy refurbs)? I don't.
Haleon said:
That would be 5,000,000 units. You would think the mob would be outside the Redmond gates with a that many dead units. I don't really think the actual rate is that high but it's easy to speculate at what's going on.
Out of the 10M or so owners I see mostly hardcore gamers going through three or four units. Naturally it's because they're the ones actually taxing the system to the limit, pushing all the cores and GPU for hours at a stretch. My guess is a lot people out there have equally flaky systems, but when they're not pushing the unit for hours a day and thus may never see the red rings. Overtime though there's build-up, like dust and cat hair that gets in the fans, screwing up the airflow which makes the system reach meltdown a whole lot quicker. That's why you see units flaking just before the warranty expires.
Then there's the other lot of problems like HDDs failing (which also can be caused by too much heat) and the DVD drive scratching disks. Those particular errors are probably within the industry threshold.
nelkon and parker
Member
I want them to release the new Xbox360 BRICK edition. It would be friggin huge, like the original xbox, with crap tons of ventilation, and no consideration for its visual appeal. I don't give two craps about how the console looks if it compromises the reliability in any way. Make it big, make it ugly, but make it solid.
DenogginizerOS
BenjaminBirdie's Thomas Jefferson
Here is a prediction. Once the Halo 3 Beta hits, the "My X360 died..." thread will see a significant increase in posts. Not because Halo 3 will break X360's. No. The reason is that a lot of people who haven't turned on their X360 recently will do so, and it is inevitable that some of these people will have their system die. Like any other major release, the Beta will expose how these systems break and like sheep, a lot of us will find a way to get a replacement. The benefits of having the Halo franchise and strong third party support are what is saving the X360 right now and is probably the reason Peter Moore is somewhat casual in his responses to the concerns.
And I think that GAF and other message boards represent people who play games much more frequently than the average consumer. In all likelihood, the gamer who turns on his system less frequently than the average GAFfer has not worn the solder out on his X360 or had his system on long enough to damage it. This means that these folks are likely to have their system die AFTER the warranty ends.
And I think that GAF and other message boards represent people who play games much more frequently than the average consumer. In all likelihood, the gamer who turns on his system less frequently than the average GAFfer has not worn the solder out on his X360 or had his system on long enough to damage it. This means that these folks are likely to have their system die AFTER the warranty ends.
EternalGamer
Banned
Borys said:
What do you mean they aren't a hardware company. They are now. They have been making hardware for two generations of systems. If they can't make decent hardware then they have no business making hardware to begin with. Incompetence is not an excuse even if it is the reality.
The thing that continues to concern me about this problem is that we, again, are only 1 and 1/2 years into this system's lifecycle and there is already a huge problem. None of the previous systems started going kaput anywhere near this soon. I don't think it is at all hyperbole at this point to say anyone would be extremely, extremely lucky if their system lasts them the entire cycle of this generation.
ElectricBlue187
Member
At least microsoft still makes good keyboards
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
With the failure rates, are you guys counting the "fixed" 360s that break again?
I mean if one person is on their 4th 360 wouldn't it take 3 other people to never have a problem to call it even?
I mean if one person is on their 4th 360 wouldn't it take 3 other people to never have a problem to call it even?
DrXym said:
If you had a marketing company that was being paid to spread as much dirt about your competitiors as possible by using whatever means possible I think this scenario is ideal.
The thing is genuine people will start threads with genuine issues, and thats where the guys who are paid just to sit on the internet and spread FUD jump in.
People are putting too much stock in this using glue to hold the CPU & GPU down. I used to work in electronics manufacturing running the machines that place the components on circuit boards, and be assured that the 360 mobo is subject to MUCH more heat than it will ever experience during its normal working life for a considerable amount of time. Think temperatures of over 200C with a quick warmup and cool down for up to 20 minutes for either side of the board.
The glue is probably there to help with stopping the CPU and GPU moving around during component placement as the board gets thrown around at high speed, before going into an oven to melt the solder paste onto the pads and components. If the CPU moved slighty during this process it "smudges" the solder paste causing bridging of pads and this requires reworking which is time consuming and a pain in the ass to do.
If this was happening a lot at manufacturing, then that may explain some of the issues, as the reworking may as well be done by trained chimps in most plants.
I have yet to see boards flex under heat stress in even the cheapest of electronics equipment as they are all designed to withstand heat.
Draft said:
That's exactly why I bought mine. For the rush. Hell, when I fire that bad boy on and hear those turbines kick into high gear, I never know if it's going to make it all the way through to the end of my play session. It's that anxiety and fear that adds to the whole experience for me. Condemned in the dark on an HDTV with 5.1 surround? Scary. Condemned in the dark on an HDTV with 5.1 surround and a system that is teetering on the razor's edge of three red lights that spell out doom for my gaming backlog? Well, that's butthole clenching time right there.
AltogetherAndrews
Member
Borys said:
With the Xbox, the company had to impress in order to establish the brand. Now, we're back with the company that gave us Windows 98. It had to release the system early and at a certain price point, quality and reliability be damned. It's a real shame the company hasn't been properly put against the wall for this strategy when it's clearly affecting end users.
Any decent company would offer a recall for the first batch and fixed the fault of later batches.
MS obviously tried their luck that xboxgamers would leave and let live. They won.... You send to MS for repairs, MS sends back a dirty refurb 360 while repairi...glued your broken 360 together, a repeating cycle of doom. It is too late to recall millions of 360 so you have Pete's spin to sweep things under the carpet. :lol
I hope this is one of the many breakdown360 articles to hit the interweb. Sony can get flamed endlessly for RIIIIIDGE RACER joke, why should MS have it easier, much much easier?
MS obviously tried their luck that xboxgamers would leave and let live. They won.... You send to MS for repairs, MS sends back a dirty refurb 360 while repairi...glued your broken 360 together, a repeating cycle of doom. It is too late to recall millions of 360 so you have Pete's spin to sweep things under the carpet. :lol
I hope this is one of the many breakdown360 articles to hit the interweb. Sony can get flamed endlessly for RIIIIIDGE RACER joke, why should MS have it easier, much much easier?
EternalGamer
Banned
X26 said:
It goes deeper than you think. Following his line of thought, there is a good chance that all my real life friends who have "had 360 problems" have really just been Sony plants in disguise. In fact, the fact that I have had my own 360 go bad is a good enough reason to even be suspicious of myself. My God, maybe I am a Sony plant and don't even know it! Maybe Neogaf is an entire forum designed just so that this thread could exists to smear the 360! Or maybe there is no 360! Maybe Sony just made us think there was so we would all stay trapped in our containment units and they could feed off of our energy! How deep it goes we will never know!
kitch9 said:
Tons of 360's shoot craps. Two of my close friends have had issues. One in on his fourth, the other just bought his shortly after Gears dropped and he just had to send it off for repairs. Mine has frozen more than a few times, and I've even gotten three red lights, but for now, it's working.
This isn't FUD. It's poor manufacturing practices and design flaws.
I tend to dis-believe a lot of what is said on the internet.
Take this glueing thing on the CPU and GPU for instance.... If boards were failing under heat it would take very little to fix this particular problem with the board itself rather than glueing components which is used to fix other manufacturing issues.
Some would have you believe that MS are not fixing this issue as they like reading threads like this on the GAF too much.....
Take this glueing thing on the CPU and GPU for instance.... If boards were failing under heat it would take very little to fix this particular problem with the board itself rather than glueing components which is used to fix other manufacturing issues.
Some would have you believe that MS are not fixing this issue as they like reading threads like this on the GAF too much.....
sp0rsk said:
Oh give me a break. You think MS wants these systems to be failing? Their repair/servicing costs must be through the roof, wasting FAR more money than anything they'll get from selling a few hundred thousand Elite's.
You're right there're no excuses, and MS should be fixing this rather than pretending it doesn't exist. But it's no big conspiracy to force people to buy an Elite :lol
travisbickle
Member
They just break down.....a lot. We all know the 360 didn't go through a rigorous testing procedure, I think I read on here Microsoft practically started shipping units as soon as they had all the parts together, and I guess since then they thought it would be cheaper to refurbish broken consoles then redesign the unit, until now that is, I guess the "elite" version has a revised design to stop it from overheating?
Hammer24 said:
And this is exactly the issue. Why should MS be interested in fixing things, when people go and buy new 360s when their old ones (which should still be working) break and they can't get service???
So, yes, Mr. Moore probably is laughing at you. And so is the rest of MS. You have a product of theirs that broke and they refuse to service it, but they've just made you spend money on a brand new one.
MS seems to have truly ushered in the era of "i'm so pissed about this company's shitty customer service that I'm going to spend another $400 on a brand new machine." Sorry to rant but this company has done nothing good for the gaming industry. Really.
Firestreak
Member
yukoner said:
Question is... does MS really lose lots of cash? If on their replacements they charge $140 and give you someone else's Xbox 360 that they fixed, it may actually be profitable to them.
And then a lot of people buy new 360s outright. They profit off this as well...
Even the people who get pissed off are going to buy new 360s. They've already got the extra controllers, the games, the wheels and the xbla games.
If Microsoft was selling the system at a loss and replacing all units for free, you can damn well bet they'd have fixed the problem.
