Fair Phil's knightly shine has become a bit tarnished in recent months it seems. Statham isn't even sporting the I believe in Phil badge anymore. You can only whisper platitudes into people's ears for so long before the pain in their assholes eventually makes them realize what is really happening.
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Phil Spencer on indie parity clause "I want people to feel like they're first class"
- Thread starter Kayant
- Start date
Fair Phil's knightly shine has become a bit tarnished in recent months it seems. Statham isn't even sporting the I believe in Phil badge anymore. You can only whisper platitudes into people's ears for so long before the pain in their assholes eventually makes them realize what is really happening.
J Allard is on a work release/house arrest-type deal after serving time in the Microsoft jail for the Zune.
Prototype Viktor
Member
The PR person who came up with that spin went home that night and treated themselves with some Arby's
But what about Dem Workingman's Graphics?
RedNumberFive
Banned
Shit, Zune was Allard? Damn J, what happened?
Let's be fair, the Zune was a fantastic device. Unfortunately it wasn't just late to the party, it missed it completely.
plasmawave
Banned
Yep.
That's Kevin Dent?
Those first-class fries
To be fair I only tried Zune a little bit, but I'd agree it did seem like it was just late to the party. But sometimes that does make all the difference...
Shit, Zune was Allard? Damn J, what happened?
Microsoft Kin was him too. Racked up a billion dollar tab on that unfortunate sucker.
No, just a misplaced joke that chubigans and I have apologized for. I should probably edit that.
This is the BIGGEST HORSE SHIT I'VE EVER SEEN.
Why are they gimping, in my opinion, a game because the other console can't run it at the best resolution? There are far better ways of articulating this position without bashing the more powerful console. They could've lied about this or just not said anything at all. Do something, anything other than state that want everyone to feel like first class citizens.
Where was all this during the X360's run as the lead platform?
Why are they gimping, in my opinion, a game because the other console can't run it at the best resolution? There are far better ways of articulating this position without bashing the more powerful console. They could've lied about this or just not said anything at all. Do something, anything other than state that want everyone to feel like first class citizens.
Where was all this during the X360's run as the lead platform?
Don't get me wrong. I just can't help but feel that suddenly is being a little overused.
Shit, Zune was Allard? Damn J, what happened?
J got sidelined by the Windows guys after he designed Courier (stepped on their toes, bad idea). Rumor is he screamed at Ballmer over it and pretty much took early retirement.
Then you might want to go back and address the tacit, "Screw you, I got mine," tone that's prevalent from many of the people defending the policy because they think it supports their particular buying decision.
And I'm positive that very few people really make the indie distinction like we do on GAF, in the first place. Do you really think the vast majority of Minecraft buyers care that it is technically an "indie" compared to something like a Lego game?
Really? That's fucked. Ah well, he was a decent chap..
I mean I don't know what other word to use. Do you have any ideas?
BlackBuzzard
Banned
No. Kevin dent is a pile of compost.
justsomeguy
Member
Discussion is release date parity not resolution.
serversurfer
Member
What's the difference? I don't see how feature parity is any less harmful to gamers and developers than launch parity is. Edit: And it's not just graphics; it seems Ubi needed to cut an innovative, and already-implemented control scheme on a PS3 version of their game, because they weren't able to "slip it past Microsoft."
It's not so much a critique of his personal buying decision. He's basically arguing that it's not fair to him that PlayStation get games which are better or newer. It's perfectly fair, because unlike him, PlayStation owners bought the platform which made those things possible.
What's unfair is insisting the PlayStation be held back simply because MS are less capable of delivering than Sony are.
Yes, as I said, glossed over by their friends at DF. And again, the sand dunes don't really have "frenzied battles" when compared to the rest of the game. Why didn't DF show some tests of four-player, T6 rifts, and actually stress the engine before declaring the drops imperceptible?
I see dips in late-game content even on the PS4. If the PS4 is dipping to 50 late in the game — as XBone does early in the game — then the XBone would only be maintaining about 30 fps under the same conditions, yet DF claims they're more or less the same as each other.
CambriaRising
Member
Let me send it through my PR converter and see what pops up.
Unilateral cooperative release.
There we go.
I think he meant to post in the AC: Unity thread. Assassino!
Wrong thread?
Wrong thread? This is about launch parity not graphics parity.
Edit - Beaten
Not the point of this thread. And that one is pure speculation atm whilst this exists and there is pure, hard evidence of it's effects and it's existence.
SerTapTap
Member
Dont' see how this compares to Pub Fund in any way. On Xbox this is the ONLY way to self pub. Get a publisher, give us exclusivity or parity or get the fuck out. With Sony they only have timed exclusivity if you take advantage of the pub fund.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Seriously. The support in here and now making its way to Twitter is overwhelming. Not just for me, but for every independent as microscopic as I am and as large as, well, large is.
I'll say one more thought to those still on the "it's fine" bandwagon. Hope it finds you guys well.
First, it is a question of manpower. Undoubtedly. There's just no way two of us here at AG can manage 4 platforms at once. It's out of the question. Hell, even working with Unity as we do, just managing Linux, PC and Mac is a stretch for us. Sure we develop once, but runtime bugs are different on all 3. We might not even make all 3 for an initial launch, sadly. So there's that: throughput.
Second, it's about fostering and maintaining a relationship with a platform holder. I'll go into a bit of detail on our first phone call this year from Platform A. We filled out the necessary applications and submitted materials requested, per the norm. We weren't really holding our breath, just throwing things at the wall to see what happens. We have faith in what we are creating and had enough up and running to show what the two of us can achieve.
The dialogue between myself and platform A was pretty straight forward. We spoke about our goals, our previous achievements, etc. I brought up the red tape issue specifically due to ID's policy. I needed to be sure there were as few hoops as possible if we were to make a transition to include console development. Outside of standard submission and certification practices, there weren't any to speak of. Cool for us! There was something else about that part of the conversation that I took home with me. It was more than just "no red tape". It was reassurance.
The kind of reassurance that I, a jackass, shouldn't be getting. I'm smaller than small time. I am on the ground picking up apples because I can't reach the tree. They assured me they are there to help me reach that tree on my own. They assured me that they weren't about "this is what you need to do for us", rather, "let us know how we can help make this experience for you go smoothly". They didn't treat me like I was a nobody, a checkbox they can tick off, they treated me like I had been working with them for years, already. "We got you, bro. You can do this" was the vibe.
That's the kind of reassurance that made me comfortable in my own skin. Made me comfortable with what I am working on. Made me comfortable in my own damn house. That goes beyond helping a small time with dev kits and software, it begins a relationship, a foundation built on mutual respect for each other and the medium. I can't begin to tell you how that made me feel. More confident that someone, at this big huge place, saw something in my work that clicked for them. Saw something in my team that they liked. It made me feel like I was on the right track with what I am doing with my passion. Thus, changed my whole perspective going forward from "what the fuck am I doing" to "I'm on the right track, I need to keep at this". It's small. Just a little bit of "we are here to help" went so far with me. I'll never forget that conversation. They are there to help, not hinder. Blew my mind straight up.
I know that there are "exceptions" to the rule for ID but the exception should become the rule. It's not just great for us little guys, it's great for the brand, gamers and gaming, in general.
Anyhow, I'm tired. Silly long day and my brain is half-dead. Apologize in advance for any spelling or grammatical errors. My brain is running on fumes, atm.
I'll say one more thought to those still on the "it's fine" bandwagon. Hope it finds you guys well.
First, it is a question of manpower. Undoubtedly. There's just no way two of us here at AG can manage 4 platforms at once. It's out of the question. Hell, even working with Unity as we do, just managing Linux, PC and Mac is a stretch for us. Sure we develop once, but runtime bugs are different on all 3. We might not even make all 3 for an initial launch, sadly. So there's that: throughput.
Second, it's about fostering and maintaining a relationship with a platform holder. I'll go into a bit of detail on our first phone call this year from Platform A. We filled out the necessary applications and submitted materials requested, per the norm. We weren't really holding our breath, just throwing things at the wall to see what happens. We have faith in what we are creating and had enough up and running to show what the two of us can achieve.
The dialogue between myself and platform A was pretty straight forward. We spoke about our goals, our previous achievements, etc. I brought up the red tape issue specifically due to ID's policy. I needed to be sure there were as few hoops as possible if we were to make a transition to include console development. Outside of standard submission and certification practices, there weren't any to speak of. Cool for us! There was something else about that part of the conversation that I took home with me. It was more than just "no red tape". It was reassurance.
The kind of reassurance that I, a jackass, shouldn't be getting. I'm smaller than small time. I am on the ground picking up apples because I can't reach the tree. They assured me they are there to help me reach that tree on my own. They assured me that they weren't about "this is what you need to do for us", rather, "let us know how we can help make this experience for you go smoothly". They didn't treat me like I was a nobody, a checkbox they can tick off, they treated me like I had been working with them for years, already. "We got you, bro. You can do this" was the vibe.
That's the kind of reassurance that made me comfortable in my own skin. Made me comfortable with what I am working on. Made me comfortable in my own damn house. That goes beyond helping a small time with dev kits and software, it begins a relationship, a foundation built on mutual respect for each other and the medium. I can't begin to tell you how that made me feel. More confident that someone, at this big huge place, saw something in my work that clicked for them. Saw something in my team that they liked. It made me feel like I was on the right track with what I am doing with my passion. Thus, changed my whole perspective going forward from "what the fuck am I doing" to "I'm on the right track, I need to keep at this". It's small. Just a little bit of "we are here to help" went so far with me. I'll never forget that conversation. They are there to help, not hinder. Blew my mind straight up.
I know that there are "exceptions" to the rule for ID but the exception should become the rule. It's not just great for us little guys, it's great for the brand, gamers and gaming, in general.
Anyhow, I'm tired. Silly long day and my brain is half-dead. Apologize in advance for any spelling or grammatical errors. My brain is running on fumes, atm.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Don't you bring Ed into this.
serversurfer
Member
We're not talking about exclusivity deals. We're talking about Microsoft's insistence that developers give MS something just as good as what they're giving Sony. There's little wrong with that, in and of itself, but the issue is when developers are unable to deliver something just as good because of Microsoft's own failings, and the solution offered by MS is, "Well, just hold back the PlayStation version."
It doesn't matter if we're talking about holding back on launch dates, graphics, or gesture controls. Insisting your partners hamstring your competition on your behalf is anti-competitive, regardless of what the law says on the subject.
I honestly don't know. But people already talked about this kind of thing, and didn't have to use the term. Now, it seems to be everywhere (see Ubisoft, although in other context).
Anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding
Speedy Blue Dude
Banned
I understood some of those words. And I don't agree.
Based Phil Spencer. He's just on a roll lately with good decisions for Xbox. Glad he's now in charge.
serversurfer
Member
Forced parity is forced parity. The only argument I can see for excluding feature parity from a parity discussion is that additional parity clauses help to establish a pattern of anti-competivitve behavior.
You call it anti-competitive, I call it scathingly competitive. If, as you say, we aren't talking about legal implications, then I agree it's a distinction without a difference.
Parity clauses and exclusivity clauses are opposite extremes on the same business spectrum as far as I'm concerned.
The Illiterati
Member
Yes, the Xbox user feels first class when they boot up their store and see less games available. Because really that's all it comes down to. MS culture wants to posture with their ego to seem first class but they're in second place and the guys in first aren't being as petty.
SeventhSon
Member
This Post Brought To You By the Microsoft Xbox One, The All-in-One Entertainment System
Captain Chaos
Member
You always know when someone is bullshitting you when their reasoning is too long.
Well, that's partly because you've used Bing to help you with the definitions. ;p
boredandlazy
Member
I initially read that as "Well, that's parity for you"...
boredandlazy
Member
No. Kevin Dent has his own account here.
walltowall
Member
Oh man...This thread had some genuine discussion and insight for a while there and now we're back to making fun of other members.........
Between this post and chubigans' awesome commentary on the issue, there really is no wiggle room left for the type of 'see-what-sticks' defenses of this policy that have been in this topic. Phenomenal post.
The only remaining folk left who don't understand clearly don't want to understand.
NoMoChokeSJ
Banned
When I read posts like this I get a little confused on what gamers expect out of these companies. It's like there is an expectation that MS will do it's best to not step on the toes of Sony gamers. You do realize that they are competing for the same market share right? Building your product up as being the better choice is the absolute core of marketing. I get that the release parity clause is shitty for some developers and may need to be changed, but expecting MS to be concerned about negatively influencing gamers who don't support their ecosystem is unrealistic at a minimum.
Also there was a post a few pages back that highlighted guaranteed royalties for indie publishers from Sony for limited console exclusivity.. What is the take on this because it seemed to get glossed over?
Miles Quaritch
Member
Am I really so predictable?
Compost actually provides something useful though
serversurfer
Member
It's actively crippling the competition. They're not competing with Sony; they're just trying to ensure Sony can't leverage the advantages of their own platform.
That's not being competitive. That's being anti-competitive. Competing means running as fast as you can. It doesn't mean coating the fast guy's shoes with lard because "it's not fair that he's faster than you."
I'm not a fan of exclusivity deals either, actually, but keep in mind that during the PS1/PS2 era when Sony were getting all of the exclusives, that was thanks in no small part to their willingness to fund the development of games that would've otherwise gone unfunded.
Paying to have a game made? Good Thing.
Paying to keep a game out of someone else's hands? Bad Thing.
Uno Venova
Banned
Sure there's overwhelming evidence that this clause is detrimental to indies and gamers alike, but I have way to strong of an allegiance with Phil to accept any of that. I believe in you Phil.
oldergamer
Member
J left MS after courier tablet was cancelled. He was really good and worked on some pretty interesting stuff there. Xbox, Zune, Courier then got pissed off and left. I blame Balmer for that one. They should have kept him. he's the only leader there that did anything interesting with hardware ( that balmer fucked up at a later date of course)
ALLseeingEYE
Member
Uh, did you actually listen tot he Podcast? Phil comes off as really level headed. If anything, it just cemented my opinion that he is the best choice they could have in that position at this moment.
Like, this whole thread seems like a bunch of people harping on an out of context quote. He said he wants X1 owners to be first class citizens, which is good. But he also didn't say that indies who can't port games to multiple platforms at the same time can't do an X1 port, just that they need to have a conversation about it. I hardly see what's wrong with that, or how that's any different than how Sony has always done things. They likely just don't want indies treating X1 as second class and always releasing late.
If you are releasing late on X1, why not have a little bonus? or do something to make it up to the fans? seems reasonable.
CambriaRising
Member
Are you talking about the Pub Fund? That's essentially a loan to developers in order to help fund the project, so of course there are strings attached. This is MS's policy for ANY indie development studio who wants to publish on their platform. There is a huge different here.
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