• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Phil Spencer on indie parity clause "I want people to feel like they're first class"

F

FyreWulff

Member
Still a bad policy, MS.

You have other console makers that don't have parity clauses or enforcement at all. It's just going to end up with developers choosing to skip XB1 instead of delaying other platforms because they like eating food.

If it sounds like a 90s Nintendo policy, you should not do it.
 
P

Patroclos

Banned
keit4 said:
I still don't get how buying Unity contributes to the lack of internal devs and first party games for MS.
Click to expand...

It's not about buying Unity. Honestly it is an issue of direction, mindset, and culture that needs to change within Microsoft and especially the Xbox division. Microsoft have a long corporate history of copying, emulating and buying rather than one defined by innovation, creativity and initiative. These good qualities were the driving force behind the first Xbox and helped to make it and it's predecessor successful.

Buying IP/engines, moneyhatting, forced parity, timed/bought exclusives, these heavy handed tactics are why Microsoft is where it is. It's why they are belittled and made fun of by many gamers now. It is what causes animosity toward the company.

Develop first parties, get rid of restrictive parity clauses, be open, be honest. Admit and own the fact that you will not objectively be "the best place to play" this gen. Make yourself standout by being a DIFFERENT place to play with new and fantastic experiences not available elsewhere. Create. Success for Microsoft starts there.

All signs lead me to believe they don't have it in them to change and adapt to meet the needs that the current market dictates.
 
P

Peltz

Member
BruiserBear said:
I just don't see the outrage in this thread matching up with the facts before us. That's what I entered this discussion asking. What is this outrage about?

Do we see XB1 owners with pitchforks in hand saying "we need more indies"? Do we see people saying "Man, I'd like to buy an XB1, but that lack of indies."?

I see a lot of very angry people in this thread, but I don't see a connection to anyone who actually owns the console.
Click to expand...

You're right. I don't own the console DUE TO THE PARITY CLAUSE. Last gen, I bought an Xbox 360 specifically for the games on XBLA early in the generation. This gen, I went with PS4 due to the indie outcry against the clause and the courtship of indies devs on Sony's part.
 
O

orochi91

Member
ShinMaruku said:
Who actually believed that he was going to change things?
Click to expand...

I remember the deluge of "I Believe in PS" badges. Laughed at them then, still laughing at them now :'D


Marcel said:
Yep.

8hNFPyZ.png
Click to expand...


I think he bailed from this thread.
 
J

JackLongRod

Banned
chubigans said:
So let me explain my end of things as it relates to PS4 and XB1 development.

The ID@Xbox team is fantastic. I got my test kit in a little under two months, and the team seems a bit more put together and I feel are very communicative. Sony's side is considerably busier, and a harder platform to get on. But I'm finally on both now, just awaiting PS4/Vita kits soon.

My situation is that the engine I use, GM Studio, only supports PS4/PS Vita export on the console side. XB1 support is coming "soon," sometime later this year it seems. Right now I'm studying up on PS development docs and getting ready for a potential port of my current game, but mainly its for getting my next unannounced game ready for console releases.

It is completely out of my hands that I'll be developing for PS4 first, despite the fact that I've had a XB1 kit longer and much, much earlier. By the time XB1 export support gets here, I should be well versed in the functionality of PS4 and deploying to that platform. In essence I should be ready for PS4 submission of my current game, which is just in time as I'll be ready to jump into my next game as the artwork side should be done in a few months. Then once I get another lull in development on my new game, XB1 export support should be available and I should be able to publish my previous game to that system during that time.

...theoretically, that's how it would work. Instead, I have to make the decision of delaying the PS4 version to some unforeseen time when I'll have XB1 export support and knowledge on how to publish on that platform sometime next year. And I'm not about to do that. My game isn't a big enough one to get a free pass from MS. I'm half tempted to announce my game for both platforms, with the XB1 version coming in at a later date, just to see if MS would have enough gall to cancel it. If they do, they can have their dev kit back.

The ID@Xbox team are great people. MS has grown leaps and bounds from where they were on the indie scene a year back. Phil has the power to get rid of the one stupid development hurdle, and he very clearly doesn't give a fuck what I think or any other indie dev thinks. And that's a real damn shame, because at the end of the day my game will literally be on every single major platform except XB1, and I have a XB1 development kit right in front of me. Now, if I told all this to Phil, showing him how completely out of my hands all of this is, he might give me a free pass. I don't want a free pass. I want this stupid rule to be knocked down.
Click to expand...

Great post

Thanks for sharing
 
B

Bgamer90

Banned
serversurfer said:
As a PlayStation owner, why should I be punished for your poor buying decision?
Click to expand...

Come on. Let's not start criticizing other people's buying decisions.

I'm positive that very few people bought any of the new consoles solely for indies so their purchase decision possibly impacting you/others was unintentional.
 
E

EGM1966

Member
BruiserBear said:
I'm not ignoring the fact that developers don't like the policy. People get upset about a lot of things. Doesn't make their complaints worthy of attention. As others have pointed out in this thread, Microsoft hands out free dev kits, but then they can't demand you release day and date with other platforms? You're playing on their playground. Their rules.

As I said earlier, if Sony announced tomorrow that indie games must offer the PS4 one week of exclusivity for self publishing my reaction would also be "ok". Again, Sony's playground. Sony's rules.

If your game is good enough, it's gonna rise to the top. We've seen this happen with Microsoft and Sony pulling deals for the really exciting projects (No Man's Sky). If they don't want to pull a deal with you, prioritize the platforms you can handle, and go for it dudes.
Click to expand...
Technically yeah - it's their platform.

But their polices with XB1 have seen them squander market momentum and presence, lose significant market share and in this case lose access to games that could be on their system so you'll have to forgive me for questioning whether sticking to your guns when it's not helping you out and is observably hindering you is the right move.

While there ain't rioting crowds there is objective evidence of this reducing size and comparability of XB1 library to PS4 (which is a business negative whatever XB1 owners think) and it's pretty obvious this continues to gather negative press (which the XB1 has arguably had enough of already) yet there is no evidence (objective or subjective) this policy has in any way helped MS or XB1 in the market.

Bottom line there seems no reason to have it and every reason to drop it and you really have to wonder what they hope to gain standing their ground given they've caved on so much else.

It just doesn't make sense, much like their policy which only works in some alternate reality where XB1 immediately too a sizeable install base lead over PS4.

EDIT : late typo fix - damn you mobile phone
 
M

Marcel

Member
It's a blue joke to be sure. Mods seem to be watching the thread so if there's an issue that requires action I'm sure it will be addressed. I don't shrink from any potential blowback.
 
J

justsomeguy

Member
serversurfer said:
"With both running at a full 1080p, we see a clear margin when running the New Tristram Gates, during the Skeleton King boss fight, and during packed skirmishes on the South Highlands plains. It reaches as low as 52fps on Xbox One…"

It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure the Skeleton King is the first real boss you face. I'd call that "barely scratching the surface," especially when the game is intended to be played through multiple times, cranking up the action with each playthrough.
Click to expand...

Final word from me on this offtopic issue, feel free to bump the DF thread if you want to continue it:

"Given how infrequently we bumped into the issue, even during frenzied sand dune battles with two allied AI players in tow, the issue is surprisingly rare. Most drops tend to be imperceptible, and in the end, we resorted to scanning hours of footage to track most shifts downwards from the 60fps mark
 
Begaria

Begaria

Member
chubigans said:
So let me explain my end of things as it relates to PS4 and XB1 development.

The ID@Xbox team is fantastic. I got my test kit in a little under two months, and the team seems a bit more put together and I feel are very communicative. Sony's side is considerably busier, and a harder platform to get on. But I'm finally on both now, just awaiting PS4/Vita kits soon.

My situation is that the engine I use, GM Studio, only supports PS4/PS Vita export on the console side. XB1 support is coming "soon," sometime later this year it seems. Right now I'm studying up on PS development docs and getting ready for a potential port of my current game, but mainly its for getting my next unannounced game ready for console releases.

It is completely out of my hands that I'll be developing for PS4 first, despite the fact that I've had a XB1 kit longer and much, much earlier. By the time XB1 export support gets here, I should be well versed in the functionality of PS4 and deploying to that platform. In essence I should be ready for PS4 submission of my current game, which is just in time as I'll be ready to jump into my next game as the artwork side should be done in a few months. Then once I get another lull in development on my new game, XB1 export support should be available and I should be able to publish my previous game to that system during that time.

...theoretically, that's how it would work. Instead, I have to make the decision of delaying the PS4 version to some unforeseen time when I'll have XB1 export support and knowledge on how to publish on that platform sometime next year. And I'm not about to do that. My game isn't a big enough one to get a free pass from MS. I'm half tempted to announce my game for both platforms, with the XB1 version coming in at a later date, just to see if MS would have enough gall to cancel it. If they do, they can have their dev kit back.

The ID@Xbox team are great people. MS has grown leaps and bounds from where they were on the indie scene a year back. Phil has the power to get rid of the one stupid development hurdle, and he very clearly doesn't give a fuck what I think or any other indie dev thinks. And that's a real damn shame, because at the end of the day my game will literally be on every single major platform except XB1, and I have a XB1 development kit right in front of me. Now, if I told all this to Phil, showing him how completely out of my hands all of this is, he might give me a free pass. I don't want a free pass. I want this stupid rule to be knocked down.
Click to expand...

I tweeted a link to this post at Phil Spencer. Deserves to be read.
 
M

Marcel

Member
BruiserBear said:
It's funny seeing you throw the emotional guilt card on me a page ago for "shitting on indie devs", and then you labeled my behavior 'shameful'.

Now you're casually comparing me to a shithead like Dent.

So cute.
Click to expand...

To be fair, I had no great knowledge of Dent's history. I just thought his opinions on the matter at hand (indie parity) were closely aligned with yours and hence why I made the connection. I apologize for connecting you on other matters.
 
C

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
Team Vernia said:
Terrible sarcasm. Calling anyone Kevin Dent is a personal attack in my eyes. Dude seems like a legit awful human being based on his twitter at least.



Ah. Missed that. Chubs is the true baddie.
Click to expand...

Bah, I was obviously jokin'.

Marcel said:
To be fair, I had no knowledge of Dent's history. I just thought his opinions on the matter at hand were closely aligned with yours.
Click to expand...

Same.

Anyways, let's get back on point. I'd rather not talk about Dent anymore.

Begaria said:
I tweeted a link to this post at Phil Spencer. Deserves to be read.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Let me know if he responds back!
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
Stone Ocean said:
So moral of the story, indie devs should get fucked and bend over to whatever rules are set in place because platform holders are exempt from any criticism because they own the ball and they can take it home and that is totally fair game?

dyeHb.gif
Click to expand...

Haha. Fuck indie devs, who the hell do they think they are? It's almost as if console manufacturers need developers as much as devs need them!

But no, for some reason if you own the console you're allowed to make whatever horrific policies you like and nobody should complain about it - including the very developers you want on your system - because their ballpark, their rules.

These aren't arguments at all. I can't stop laughing.

ShinMaruku said:
Who actually believed that he was going to change things?
Click to expand...

I cannot tell you the number of times I was told Phil Spencer was going to change things and people posted to all the policies that changed for the better since Phil Spencer came.

The thing is, he very well could be changing things. Those policies might have changed due to him. And I've applauded every single positive change.

But just because those things changed, doesn't mean this shouldn't as well. I was actually getting an XBO tomorrow, my friend was selling it to me for 250. Now I'm going to tell him I don't want it again. I am going to suffer despite all the games I want to play on it, because I refuse to support peeps who willfully damage indie developers ability to function.
 
S

serversurfer

Member
BruiserBear said:
I said I'm a free market kind of thinker, for the most part. That means console makers can do what they want, with their console platforms. What are you trying to do bringing world politics into this discussion?
Click to expand...
Placing restrictions on what your partners are allowed to supply to your competitor isn't "free market." It's "anti-competitive."

When your product only seems desirable after the competitor's product has been hamstrung at your insistence, you aren't "competing."
 
B

BlackBuzzard

Banned
chubigans said:
Bah, I was obviously jokin'.



Same.

Anyways, let's get back on point. I'd rather not talk about Dent anymore.



Thanks! Let me know if he responds back!
Click to expand...

Yeah lets for the love of god not pay attention to that guy. The less we see or hear about him the better it is for everyone.
 
B

BokehKing

Banned
Bgamer90 said:
Come on. Let's not start criticizing other people's buying decisions.

I'm positive that very few people bought any of the new consoles solely for indies so their purchase decision possibly impacting you/others was unintentional.
Click to expand...
I was a 360 heavy user last gen
II loved indies on my 360
Kept me busy between big titles
Microsoft ditched indies to an extent, Sony didn't, so in a way I did go where the indies went/was part of my buying decision for a ps4 (thanks to Microsoft introducing them to me last gen)
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
devilsadvocat said:
I was a 360 heavy user last gen
II loved indies on my 360
Kept me busy between big titles
Microsoft ditched indies to an extent, Sony didn't, so in a way I did go where the indies went/was part of my buying decision for a ps4 (thanks to Microsoft introducing them to me last gen)
Click to expand...

i must have given Microsoft a bazillion dollars in revenue from all the indies I purchased on Xbox 360. 90%+ of my playtime was on 360.

Maybe they need to call J. allard or some shit lol

Roldan said:
Parity.

Gaming market, stop using this word, please. Just stop.
Click to expand...

Sorry we're going to use any word that applies perfectly to a given situation. Sorry Mr. Vocabulary. I know, I know... using English words in the appropriate context is tough sometimes, but it has proven to be a boon to comprehension!
 
davepoobond

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
Marcel said:
Does the Xbox One come with a hot towel and complimentary champagne?
Click to expand...

The towel is hot only if you wrap it around the Xbox and the champagne comes in the cooler you put the Xbox on. The cooler comes with the first class package.


But lets be real here. These indie games aren't worthy of booting on an Xbox first class
 
P

Peltz

Member
serversurfer said:
Placing restrictions on what your partners are allowed to supply to your competitor isn't "free market." It's "anti-competitive."

When your product only seems desirable after the competitor's product has been hamstrung at your insistence, you aren't "competing."
Click to expand...

Eh. I don't agree. Is it bad business? In this context, yes. Is it "anti-competitive?" Not at all.

Exclusivity deals are a natural and acceptable business tactic when looking at it in general terms. "Anti-competitive" is a legal term with a very real definition which isn't implicated here.

This is just "bad business" because it's really harming Microsoft, their image, their partners, and their customers. Everyone loses.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Phil Spencer Has Now Been Head of Xbox for 10 Years; We Look Back at His First Decade
4
738
Oppoi replied
  • Locked
  • Poll
If Phil Spencer tears down the wall of exclusives on Xbox, will those of you who own an Xbox sell their system?
23
2K
Kururu replied
I don't think "indie" is a good label to use anymore
Opinion Community 2 3
117
3K
Guilty_AI replied
I feel like consoles no longer feel like unique machines worth owning like they used to, and just feel like worse PCs (Nintendo excluded)
Opinion 2 3
135
6K
KXVXII9X replied
Devolver co-founder talks about competing with live service AAA titles for players' time and why indies may have a harder time on Xbox and PlayStation
Opinion Business Game Dev
12
1K
PanzerCute replied
Top Bottom