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Police kill unarmed black man in California.

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commedieu

Banned
Fucking dogs.


Shooting to disable aside warning shots actually do exist in multiple european countries.


Quiet. Listen to the gold standard in shitty policing, both domestic and world wide. The usa.

Least trained shittiest police in the first world with 0 accountability know what is best.* and are superior to all other trained forces. That actually train. Because of reasons.


* for black people. And other undesirables.
 

Uhyve

Member
Leg shots can be just as lethal. Shooting to disarm or disable is Hollywood nonsense. It has only worked in a few situations. Your accuracy, even in a very well trained individual, goes out the window when your body responds to stress.
In the western world you're quite likely to survive a gunshot to the leg, pretending that they're in anyway similar is silly. I mean, if you were gonna get shot, where would you prefer it? The leg obviously.

Most shootings by cops happen from a few feet away, if a trained officer can't hit a target from that distance, even if they are under stress, maybe they're not suited for the job. Also, from that distance, if you're shooting toward a leg, the trajectory is downwards, lessening the chance of officers accidentally shooting people in the vicinity.

Also, it's quite a common police tactic, in quite a few countries. But yeah, it's totally Hollywood, because we all know how there's no movies starring cops who have high kill counts.
 
Here's a novel concept.

Don't just jump to lethal force as a response to perceived danger.
I think the cops should have kept their distance and assessed the situation first and de-escalated.

Having said that, here's another novel concept:

A pair of brass knuckles or baseball bat is "danger", a potential gun is "death".

There's a difference between someone wanting to trade blows with you and a gun, btw. Let's hope you don't think guns are "danger" only and learn to see them as weapons that kill: easily.

I'm not defending the cops for shooting an unarmed man but at close range when someone has their hands in their pocket and whips them up at you in a shooting stance in the blink of an eye, there is no "pause" button in real life so you can stop, pan the camera around and zoom in to make sure you get a good look at what he's holding.

If you can make this explicit call in a split second with adrenaline pumping like mad then, by all means, you should be an instructor to show everyone else how it's done since you can remain clear of mind in that situation.

Again, seeing the demeanor of the man, his hands in his pocket, the best course of action would have been distance + any obstacle + de-escalate.

The cops made the wrong call on the approach which set up the moment that followed. I haven't seen any video but the picture is pretty damning to see. That's not a "danger" pose by any stretch of even the most creative imagination.

Shitty situation all around.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
In other countries they wouldn't have approached with guns drawn and he wouldn't have been shot.

In America it's necessary that he died though for some reason.
 
That "common sense" didn't save Philando Castile.



Probably use the taser instead of going right for the kill.

They were going for the taser. If he had a gun the one cop would already be dead and the other soon after as the taser would have to actually hit him and knock him down rather than miss.

Did you read the article or look at the picture?
 
In other countries they wouldn't have approached with guns drawn and he wouldn't have been shot.

In America it's necessary that he died though for some reason.

Didn't approach with guns drawn. Kept refusing to take commands and remove hands from pockets. Once he refused multiple times the one drew while the other approached to taser. The guy pulled his hands out and got in a shooting stance with something in his hand. No time to determine if it was a gun just a flash of metal and a shooting stance.

The one drew his weapon in case the guy drew a gun which is reasonable to think there is something to hide when you refuse to remove your hands. One covered for safety while the other tried LTL. Unfortunately they didn't taser before he drew.
 

Future

Member
In other countries they wouldn't have approached with guns drawn and he wouldn't have been shot.

In America it's necessary that he died though for some reason.

This is the key difference. Yes when the man pointed what looked like a gun at officers it was game over. But the cops went in there guns drawn escalating the situation. Their training is to be ready to put people down, not attempt to keep people alive at all costs.

Are police even awarded for preventing violence?
 
If guns weren't so rampant there, maybe the police wouldn't expect everyone to be carrying one in their pockets. Or do they just do that if the person is black?

How common is it that police are shot in these scenarios to begin with that these officers have become so twitchy?
 
This is the key difference. Yes when the man pointed what looked like a gun at officers it was game over. But the cops went in there guns drawn escalating the situation. Their training is to be ready to put people down, not attempt to keep people alive at all costs.

Are police even awarded for preventing violence?

I think gun training in America (for self defense) pretty much consists of "Shoot or be shot." It feels like these cops are always on edge, fearing for their lives and their training is pretty much making them think that way.
 

Dalibor68

Banned
Shooting to disable aside warning shots actually do exist in multiple european countries.
In regards to warning shots: When you are chasing a suspect yes, not when he is 2m in front of you and swiftly drawing a (fake) gun.

In our country this exact situation wouldve also been legal, as I said before, justified putative self-defence. The difference could theoretically have been in that it would maybe not have come to this situation in europe due to better mental health prevention etc
 

HariKari

Member
When you are chasing a suspect yes, not wheb he is 2m in front of you and swiftly drawing a (fake) gun.

You can tell someone has zero experience with firearms when they advocate for shooting specific places on the body in a very stressful, time compressed situation.
 

commedieu

Banned
You can tell someone has zero experience with firearms when they advocate for shooting specific places on the body in a very stressful, time compressed situation.

That's the problem with american cops vs the civilized world. American police create stressful situations to put themselves into. They pull you over for a traffic ticket and treat you like you're isis from jump.

American police get killed by vehicles and heart attacks more than gun violence. There is no reason to be terrified of the public, when they aren't the ones without accountability and literally executing police on sight. American police have no reason to try to deescalate situations because nothing punishes them for their actions. So why not turn every traffic stop into a 50/50 John McClain situateion. Their training is laughable and inadequate. They are pretty much just citizens with authority complexes and guns, as tests show ameirca cops react the same as untrained civillians do in their job. A hard job is like the veteran who was taking the guy down from trying to get the cop to shoot hI'm and got fired for doing so. It's easy to shoot everything because you can.

Next excuse in 5..4..3...2..
 

Dalibor68

Banned
That's the problem with american cops vs the civilized world. American police create stressful situations to put themselves into. They pull you over for a traffic ticket and treat you like you're isis from jump.

American police get killed by vehicles and heart attacks more than gun violence. There is no reason to be terrified of the public, when they aren't the ones without accountability and literally executing police on sight. American police have no reason to try to deescalate situations because nothing punishes them for their actions.

Next excuse in 5..4..3...2..

Black people get killed by vehicles and heart attacks more than gun violence. There is no reason to be terrified of police.

See how bad this classic "Dont be afraid of xyz, car crashes are still more likely to kill you" "argument" is? It doesn't hold any water when you look at the amount of guns and gun crimes in the US.
 

commedieu

Banned
Black people get killed by vehicles and heart attacks more than gun violence. There is no reason to be terrified of police.

See how bad this classic "Dont be afraid of xyz, car crashes are still more likely to kill you" is? It doesn't hold any water when you look at the amount of guns and gun crimes in the US.

People are killed by cars indiscriminately. Police like in Ferguson and other places target black people. Cars aren't part of institutionalized racism. Data shows black people are more likely to be met with violence by police.

Think before you post next time, you'll save yourself embarrassment. I bet you thought you had a point too, huh?
 

Henkka

Banned
Just for reference.

_64891158_gun_deaths_dev_countries_464.gif


Yes, the cops in Japan don't approach with guns drawn... But that has more to do with the above than superior training
 

Bad_Boy

time to take my meds
of all the non lethal ways batman can take out a armed or unarmed criminal. you'd think a police force would figure out one. sure, it's fiction. but it's not far fetched to think of ONE realistic way.
 

Dalibor68

Banned
In regards to the first part of your post, before you edited it three times: sorry but part of that is just paranoia. You edited it to add "institutional racism" now, but before that - there is no police force that starts their day thinking "Today I'll kill some black guys" and then goes on the hunt. It is a mixture of potentially insufficient training + the status quo of gun ownership and violence in the US + to some extent black suspects appearing more dangerous to some police officers(aka the underlying racism angle). And with that said, that has nothing to do with your statement that because still more cars kill cops than armed criminals somehow they should now be responsible to take some shots first and die before firing themselves when the situation calls for it. The chance to die by heart attack or household accident is still higher than car crash, should I now run in front of traffic? And yes, people who kill cops usually do so having at least accepted it and not by accident, so that point doesn't hold any water either.

Think before you post next time, you'll save yourself embarrassment.

And you just disqualified yourself for further discourse with these aggressive, inflammatory attacks.

Then again it seems your only goal is to shout over and at people, so seems fitting.
 

TBiddy

Member
Looking at the picture, I can sort of understand why they took the shot. One could wish they would've tried for a non-lethal shot, but I suppose that's easier said than done.
 

commedieu

Banned
And you just disqualified yourself for further discourse with this aggressive, inflammatory attacks.

Then again it seems your only goal is to shout over and at people, so seems fitting.

Don't take your toy and go home because your nonsense comparison is blind to the fact that cars don't target people of color. While data has shown police forces do target people of color, as well as the justice system. That justifies a fear of police. It's a horrible point, the one you tried to make. And I'd be embarrassed if I tried to make it. Especially tainted with a condescending tone.

I didn't single out black people, I did single out the public at large that isn't gunning down police. Someone asked if police are justified in treating everyone as if they are going to kill them. The likelihood of an armed officer getting gun downed is in the minority of the causes of fatalities for police.
 
Fucking dogs.





Quiet. Listen to the gold standard in shitty policing, both domestic and world wide. The usa.

Least trained shittiest police in the first world with 0 accountability know what is best.* and are superior to all other trained forces. That actually train. Because of reasons.


* for black people. And other undesirables.


Leaked footage of police training video
aI9gghg.gif
 
Didn't approach with guns drawn. Kept refusing to take commands and remove hands from pockets. Once he refused multiple times the one drew while the other approached to taser. The guy pulled his hands out and got in a shooting stance with something in his hand. No time to determine if it was a gun just a flash of metal and a shooting stance.

The one drew his weapon in case the guy drew a gun which is reasonable to think there is something to hide when you refuse to remove your hands. One covered for safety while the other tried LTL. Unfortunately they didn't taser before he drew.


Pointing a gun st someone to make them listen/comply is a very shitty thing to do. Why pull the gun anway? You act like it was necessary when it entirely wasn't.
 

Dalibor68

Banned
Pointing a gun st someone to make them listen/comply is a very shitty thing to do. Why pull the gun anway? You act like it was necessary when it entirely wasn't.

It is literally the police's job to enforce the law and when all other methods fail you have to arrest the suspect, and part of that is drawing your gun when the suspect is clearly a potential danger. Do you expect the police to just say "k thx bye" when the potentially armed suspect does not cooperate and let him roam on and continue endangering himself and others? Because that's not how things work in the real world.
 

Vimes

Member
Been following this story for the last few days since it's near me.

El Cajon Officer Involved In Deadly Confrontation Was Sex-Suit Target
One of the officers involved in a deadly confrontation with an unarmed black man in El Cajon was demoted last year amid allegations that he sexually harassed a lesbian colleague.

Richard Gonsalves, who has 21 years with the El Cajon Police Department, was identified by the mayor the police officer who shot and killed Olango

^ This is so starkly ridiculous that I hope it turns into a prolonged discussion about the police culture here.

U.S. Twice Tried To Deport Man Killed By Police In El Cajon
U.S. authorities twice tried to deport a black man who was fatally shot by police in a San Diego suburb this week but his native Uganda refused to take him.

Police Took Over 1 Hour To Respond, About 1 Minute To Shoot

There's be a discussion for a few months about 911 reporting times in SD county. Of course when I had to call 911 in my affluent neighborhood (there was an injured drunk man in the middle of the street) medics and police were here in minutes...

El Cajon Shooting Victim Was Grieving Death Of Friend

I was thinking about attending the protests but it sounds like it's getting a bit messy out there.
 

Trojan X

Banned
Things the person did before he was shot that has nothing to do with race

1. Paced back and froth while the cops gave him to remove his hand from his pockets.

2. Failing to comply with the orders police point their weapons at the man.

3. Person rapidly remove his hands from his pockets and extends the quickly towards the officers while taking a stance.

This looks like suicide by cops to me. If anyone did that regardless of race I bet they will get shot.

If done in UK the person would have NOT got shot and everyone would live another day. And yes, something like this has happened before numerous times. Plus, any Police that does shoot to kill would have to seriously justified their killing or face being charged for murder.

NO FUCKING EXCUSES BY ANYONE AND EVERYONE HERE. This is bs. Shit police performance. Shit training. All shit. Suicide by cop or not, the handling was shit and other countries such as the UK proven time and time again the ability to handle it better. No excuses. Yes i am upset and i have every rights to be for this is the 3rd police shooting i have heard this week, and every single damn week for months and months i kept hearing new cases that is just as sickening or more madness than the next. Cases like the private investigator getting a gun pointed point blank at his temple by the police for no reason, and the police tried to think of excuses to charge him when they realise that he did nothing wrong. It is infuriating. Can you imagine a police officer coming up to you pointing a gun directly at your temple with shaky hands and their finger on the trigger when you did nothing wrong?? Oh yes, plus both yours hands are fully exposed with one of your wrist being held by the officer, and even though you completely followed his command the officer screams out to his colleagues "HE IS REACHING!!!!"? Oh yes, and dont forget that all other officers got their guns drawn out even though they know you are completely unarmed. Can you imagine that? You would be petrified! And for what?? All because you were sitting in your car parked on the side? Sitting in your CAR?!?! That's it?! That is fucked up!! No excuses.

The US police is a mess. Your system is broken. Everything need to change or more and more people will be needlessly killed or made to suffer.
 
I'm disgusted at the police system in the US, but on this occasion I can't fault them. He pulled something out of his pocket and aimed it at cops. If you were a cop in that situation, you'd be entirely justified in believing it to be a gun and firing.

If he had a mental disorder, that's extremely unfortunate, but irrelevant. Saying cops need better training in how to handle people with mental disorders may be true but it has no bearing in a situation when they have a split second to react.

All that matters is the the cops had a good reason to believe he drew a gun on them, and reacted accordingly. A sad situation, but not one that's indicative of the policing problem the US has.
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
If done in UK the person would have NOT got shot and everyone would live another day. And yes, something like this has happened before numerous times. Plus, any Police that does shoot to kill would have to seriously justified their killing or face being charged for murder.
That's mostly because guns are as rare as unicorns in the UK.
 

Mendrox

Member
Yea, from that photo, what were the cops supposed to do? Take the potential bullet?

Yes. They should protect, not kill. Why do so many other countries manage and America doesnt? Ah I forgot that you guys love your guns so of course everyone is paranoid for their life. Suicide by cop lol that is something that should t exist at all.
 

Kirye

Member
This has been a crazy situation. Had to cancel a bunch of jobs today because of the protest going on. Sad how it got to this point, but I can understand the fear the cops probably felt when he pointed something at them.

We really need to get police trained to destabilize a situation, not just shoot first ask questions later.
 
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