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Pride Toronto votes to remove police floats and marches
- Thread starter Kraftwerk
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WaterAstro
Member
So the point of this parade is for inclusion, yet they opted for exclusion.
Hypocritical.
Hypocritical.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Frankly I am surprised Pride Toronto actually voted in favor of this. As far as BLM Toronto protesting the police at pride I don't find that surprising nor should anyone. As soon as you recognize that the police and black people do not get along (in general, obviously this is not everyone on either side obviously) and BLM Toronto especially do not adore the Toronto police (what with all this carding shit among other things), it shouldn't be shocking to anyone. Shoulder shrug, I don't particularly care if the state is not represented in private events especially at the expense of actual people in those communities.
elrechazado
Banned
No, there's dismissal of your poor arguments in favor of a bad decision that will hurt minority progress while not helping the underlying g issue you purport to want to fix.
Yeah, they acknowledged it 35 years later. There are many who believe that we still have a long way to go before celebrating that institution as queer people. I don't see anything that would lead me to believe their concerns are unfounded. I know many trans people of color in the city of Toronto who have been personally victimized by the Toronto Police Services. Why would they feel welcome marching with uniformed officers? Why would a queer officer want to discount that concern?
None of it makes sense to me because frankly I don't give a damn about Pride Toronto as it is today. The only thing it serves to celebrate is the legitimization of queer people as sources of profit. People don't even know why it started or care that our interests are still under attack every day here in this very city. People want to drink and fuck and get wasted in the streets. For them, that's Pride. For me, that's Tuesday. I couldn't care less who does and doesn't march behind the Pepsi float. If you want to hear why some queer people and specifically queer people of color feel victimized by the Toronto Police Services, I'd recommend asking them. This city isn't that big. As for me, I've had more than enough of this story on Facebook.
If you want to change the minds of BLM TO organizers or come to understand their perspective, I sincerely implore you (and everyone in this thread) to reach out directly to them. Go out for coffee. They don't bite. For all the talk of community engagement and unity in this thread I hope we can put our money where our mouths are.
See? People don't give a damn about what Pride is or was. They think it's a party. A celebration of inclusion! 'What joy! We're not criminals anymore!' The sad part is that they might not be wrong.
SuperSonic1305
Member
How do you go from disrupting the event last year to suddenly having any say in how it's run?
This
Put yourself in their shoes. This parade is supposed to be inclusive for all LGBTQ people, yet has multiple floats celebrating the institution that discriminates and oppresses them to this day. While this is a PR disaster for all parties involved, I cannot blame BLM for wanting this at all. Remember that the Pride parade started as a protest against police discrimination, so this is completely in keeping with that spirit.
International Iron Man
Banned
Oh look, a person that doesn't understand why they disrupted it the last time.
Hint: same reason BLM disrupted Bernie Sanders. LGBT orgs tend to focus on white LGBT people to the exclusion of others.
And I think getting the police out of the parade is a good thing, because guess what? Not all black people are straight. There are black LGBT people who are subject to harassment from the police, and it's frankly insulting that white people are in here demanding that they march in a parade alongside the same org that oppresses them daily.
Sounds like a grade A bigot.
Are there oppressive laws aimed at blacks in Canada?
The issue is that it's not just the police organization that is being removed, but LGBT members of the police force are being restricted from wearing their uniforms. They are being told that they can't represent themselves as who they are. Even if you have a problem with them, they should have the right to participate as they see fit. LGBT members within the police department is a fact of life, you can't just make things like that disappear because you don't like the police as a whole.
I wonder if everybody would be on board with banning crucifixes and hijabs from the parade as well?
Gotdatmoney
Member
The police are, at the end of the day, a function of the state. I think it' a tiny bit different than a crucifx or a hijab.
policeman isn't an identity
Zoe
Member
Police aren't the only state participants. What about firefighters?
Interframe
Member
So basically your comparing a government work uniform to religious clothing? Nice. This just highlights how ridiculous peoples reaction to this whole thing is.
You don't need to be in a work uniform to show pride for who you are. And for many minorities abused by police, it represents a symbol of violence and oppression. Can't believe how many people here cant understand that. You shouldn't have to appease to police forces, you already pay taxes for them to do their job. They can be queer and proud without being a work uniform, because thats all it is: a government work uniform. Stop glorifying it be something its not.
Gotdatmoney
Member
What does that have to do with my point? The police are agents of the state. A hijab or a crucifix is not an identifier of state authority. So that comparison is not valid.
As for firemen I dunno, considering I don't know of any conflict between the LGBT community and the Fire Department (someone please enlighten me if I am incorrect) I suppose they didn't feel it was necessary. But in general, I (highlighting here, I am speaking just for me) don't particularly care if representations of the public state are ban from private events.
Agreed on both counts. If the LBGT wants to damage their relationship with the law enforcement community, I almost couldn't think of a better way. What a stupid decision. This is the kind of idiocy that ruins the entire movement.
Feedback oriented: I was once hurt by police and want to hurt them back, let's kick them out of the parade and make sure that they know the police are not welcome! I want to cut off my nose to spite my face!
Goal oriented: I want to improve the lives of LGBT people in Toronto and the world and improving our relationship with the police is a big part of that. I want to include them in everything we do and get them to be an important part of the movement. Use this as a tool to get us there.
You're right, the police at least have a function in society.
So we can restrict anything that doesn't fall under the vague term "identity"?
And religious symbols mean even less, and represent far worse. A literal symbol of violence and oppression to the LGBT community, and people still actively choose to participate in those organizations. And yet I would not ask a person to refrain from wearing those symbols at Pride, because if you are at Pride then I will assume that you are the exception and not representative of your abusive organization. I won't punish a gay person for choosing to be a part of the Catholic church, and representing themselves as such. Likewise for the police.
Ugh, that's very selfish of them. WTH?
And it's policemen who don't even have nothing to do with the situation in the US.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Hahaha damn, this is a pretty amusing response to an actually valid point I made. But ya know, you're just being bratty and I'm not really here to make you less bitter so shrug. Representations of the state are different from private representations. It's not a hard concept.
It's pretty insulting to see people telling queer people their opinion doesn't matter in their own parade. It's disappointing to see the lack of concern for vulnerable LGBT people who may see the police presence in the parade and feel they can then go to those police if fuckwits bash them or something.
Torontonian here, and quite disappointed. It was nice seeing the police float, it represented support and inclusion.
This demand on BLMs part to divide is, in my opinion immature and short sited.
I'm not religious in the least, but what would Jesus (the fictional character) do? His character had a great approach to this type of thing. Maybe ghandi is a better example? IDK
This demand on BLMs part to divide is, in my opinion immature and short sited.
I'm not religious in the least, but what would Jesus (the fictional character) do? His character had a great approach to this type of thing. Maybe ghandi is a better example? IDK
And yet the subject of the ban revolves around treatment of a minority group from said organization. In one case an LGBT person is an employee of a state organization, in the other case an LGBT person is a member of a tax exempt organization that serves no particular function. What does that matter?
I would not restrict a person based on their religion or profession, even if black people have suffered abuse at the hands of the police, or LGBT people have suffered abuse at the hands of the church (and I can confirm that for you). If you want to participate at Pride, and represent yourself as who you are in life, then by all means you should be able to do so.
BLM Toronto is significantly made up of (and was founded by) queer and trans people of colour. Here, I'll highlight in red what part of the LGBT community they belong to:
LGBT
Yeah I said it earlier too. I went to the parade for the first time this past summer. It really felt like the police were part of it and just another float that represented our community. The BLM cofounder just wedged the divide here. Can't really fight it I guess, just support them when they are allowed back. Sooner or later the tantrum will be over and we will all be fighting over nothing.
Is she still in the group? If so it seems insane to give in to their demands.
Gotdatmoney
Member
It's not that it's an organization that is the problem. It's that it's the state and that organization has considerable power over the general populace. A group with the power to crush you because they wield power far above an ordinary citizen. What you have to recognize is this is not about any old person or group, it's about the police, direct agents of applying the states will. If you don't want to understand the difference here I can't really help you. This doesn't have much to do with whether I actually feel this method will be effective in achieving the end goal, but the justification presented is entirely valid as far as I am concerned.
The state hold considerably more power over regular citizens than some religious person. I mean, that is fairly obvious. It's not people holding crucifixes and wearing hijabs who bitched and bitched and resisted the abolish of carding was it?
They disagree, I find the basis of that disagreement valid. That's why I am saying this requires more thought than "that's stupid". We can disagree all we want but I find it hard to believe all these people here really can't see the point being made. And again, when the state is involved, there is a duty of care required much higher than that of ordinary citizens, I don't see how people are gonna argue otherwise.
Why is she still allowed to be a leader of the group when she came up with such disgusting stance?
RastaMentality
Banned
Great news.
As far as I know yes
Hell they got one woman that is being suied by the university of toronto that when she left she claimed 1900 hours of overtime. corrupt as fuck
yup
soundahfekz
Member
How's the weather in that shelter?
RastaMentality
Banned
Right. Visceral ANGER over a tweet but reticence in approach to dead minorities. It's almost telling.
Queer cops are at the bottom of the identity totem pole.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Cops aren't children.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I mean, it shouldn't be surprising. I don't really fuck with Yusra's tweets at all (reads rather crazy tbh) but it's BLM in one corner and the police in the other. I dunno why you would expect BLM to win that showdown.
When it comes to the police I largely do not expect citizens to side against them in Canada.
Police reform needs to happen. That dosent mean we should give idiots like yusra attention
The issue I have is that the members of a state organization are also citizens. I see a fundamental difference between punishing the organization, and punishing individuals within the organization. Enacting change within the police and how they function? Great! Telling LGBT members of that organization that they can't participate in Pride as they desire? Never.
This isn't enacting change within the problematic organization. In fact, I would wager it accomplishes the opposite. For as much as I despise the church, and don't understand why people actively participate within it, the fact remains that I actually enjoy seeing people of all religions at Pride. I feel that it creates a greater link, and at least some form of understanding between members of these groups.
Again, the police may have a greater presence and power than religion (debatable), but my gripe is with the restrictions of individuals participating within the parade. In this case, the nature of the organization is irrelevant because the actions are not being taken against the organization, but rather specific members (namely LGBT members).
I know exactly why BLM wouldn't win in that showdown in the minds of several people. Fortunately, the organizers of Pride Toronto didn't swing that way this time.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
What's to say BLM won't throw a hissy fit at cops participating as individuals, and what to say cops won't throw a hissy fit and not participate as individuals.
All in all, this just made a very positive and the most fun event in Toronto a little stained. The Canadian way would be to start discussions with the police and go hand to hand showing that the discrimination can be stopped if all Cops do the same. Send a love message even in the face of hate.
Gotdatmoney
Member
That doesn't really matter. As long as you are an agent of the state the way you are viewed and your ability above the average citizen are just on drastically different level. I would love to make the argument that police officers are just regulars citizens while they are beating the shit out of me but it doesn't work like that. I dunno what to tell you man.
It doesn't really matter, you punish the police as an organization, who do you think that punishment ends up affecting? The squirrels and raccoons? No, the people in the organization.
Shrug, you are a member of the state, if the state says no, you couldn't do it anyway. It's not a right to wear a symbol of authority at a parade. I dunno why people want to pretend it is. There are laws and regulations about where you can wear these uniforms entirely because of what they represent.
Who said that was the goal here?
Shrug, we'll see, I don't know how it's gonna shake out frankly, not gonna pretend I do.
I'm not really interested in your views of religion honestly.
It's cool you feel this way but I don't particularly think it matters in what pride is about (protest) or what a section of the LGBT community wants. They obviously had one hell of a debate about this before it was decided so I'll just have to wait and see how it unfolds.
You can participate, you just can't wear your state issued uniform. I mean I really don't see why people are saying people are left out. To put it bluntly, the police are a fucking state body that basically has the ability to do w/e the hell they want, how are we seriously gonna put that power above the citizens they govern?
No offense but you can't seriously think that someone who just had their shit kicked in by the police today just wants to dance and clown around with them tomorrow. This isn't wile e. coyote and sam the sheepdog.
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