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Project Scorpio supports FreeSync and next-gen HDMI
- Thread starter mocoworm
- Start date
Because they include proprietary hardware by Nvidia that is not given away for free.
For new page.
There are no Freesync 2 monitors yet (whether any existing Freesync monitors can be updated to that is to be seen).
This will be the standard next console generation for sure. And I'm beyond excited for it with good reason!
Rain City Gamer
Member
The freesync/gsync tech itself is awesome and there is definitely benefits to it, but I would not call it a "game changer" to have it on Scorpio. It probably won't be impactful for 98% of most people for another 2-4 years. It would be like them touting 4K HDR options on the original Xbone/PS4 when it launched in 2013. Would most have considered that a "game changer" back then? I know I wouldn't have. Great future proofing and obviously great tech since we are all now buying into 4k+HDR now but it's 3-4 years later. The Scorpio 2/PS5 could be a thing before this is even something that most will benefit from.
You are comparing $200 Freesync monitors to $3000+ TVs.
8-Bit Sunset
Banned
Microsoft knocking it out the park with this one!
Excellent stuff!
Excellent stuff!
justsomeguy
Member
Often, yes. But I assume usually that's my confirmation bias.
If someone's doing that, maybe check post history and if they're a repeat offender, send a quote of the post to an online mod. They're usually responsive if you give them decent evidence.
You are just describing a vertical sync ("vsync") option. A few Xbox games allow the user to toggle vsync on or off, but the majority of games have it hardcoded to one or the other.
Most modern-day games force vsync to on because screen tearing is judged by many to be more objectionable than judder. Also, if a game maintains a fairly stable frame rate that is "mostly" 60FPS, or 30FPS, judder will already be minimized. So, turning vsync off doesn't buy you very much.
So, yeah. It might be a good idea if there was something in the console user settings that forced vsync off in as many titles as possible, in cases where a VRR TV was hooked up. (The user could specify it, or the console could sense it automagically. Preferably both.) This would be handy in cases where the game itself had no such toggle, but the hardware could still force vsync off.
Regarding the question: "If the frame rate is swinging wildly up and down, won't that still look crappy even with a VRR TV?"
Yes, it could still look fairly bad. But the point is that it would look considerably less bad than it does today with fixed-refresh TVs. Most developers try really hard to keep frame rate at least somewhat stable. Some do a better job than others. VRR makes it so small frame rate booboos are all but imperceptible, and even large slowdowns are less jarring.
Note that if you have vsync turned on, there's really no such thing as "48FPS", or "59FPS", or "25FPS". On a 60Hz, fixed refresh rate TV, the only "continuous" framerates possible are: 60, 30, 20, 15, 12, 10, etc. You can get long term frame rate averages that are those in-between values like "54.3 FPS", but those are just statistical averages created by the actual instantaneous frame rate repeatedly slamming back and forth between 60 and 30 FPS. (54FPS would likely be a bunch of 60 FPS frames mixed in with a few 30FPS frames.)
This sort of constant switching between radically different frame-times looks like ass. But if you have a VRR display, and turn vsync off, you aren't forced all the way down to 30FPS every time you barely drop under 60 FPS. You might only drop down to 55FPS when things get super hectic. Instead of all the way down to 30. That's barely going to be perceptible, as opposed to the insane variations that vsync forces upon us.
Adaptive sync for home consoles is a bigger game changer than it already is for PC. On PC the frequency was customizable anyway, never locked to just 60hz like on TV. In addition to that games can be modded and hardware selected to accommodate to specific games or mitigate issues. No such luck on home consoles. On the other hand this also causes a lot of variety, while adaptive sync on home console will/should be truly plug 'n' play: just get a full compatible display and you won't need to worry about unstable framerates due to devs incapable of sticking to just 60 or 30hz anymore.
Scorpio leading the way can only be a good thing for future gaming systems, regardless of the availability of compatible displays at the beginning.
dr_rus
Member
Freesync 2 is mostly about providing HDR tone mapping pipeline on the side of the GPU to remove the lag introduced by HDR tone mapping circuitry in HDR TVs/monitors. It's 100% that no Freesync monitor will ever be "updated" to Freesync 2 since this is essentially a h/w thing and also the one which is totally different to what Freesync 1 actually is.
The interesting question though is this: will Freesync 2 VRR work with Freesync 1 devices?
I'm not getting a new TV until it supports HDMI 2.1
I wish all the consoles would implement Freesync/HDMI 2.1 support ASAP. But they didn't yet, so good for Microsoft for actually doing it.
I can't wait until HDMI 2.1 makes this a standard expected feature on both monitors and TVs.
I wish all the consoles would implement Freesync/HDMI 2.1 support ASAP. But they didn't yet, so good for Microsoft for actually doing it.
I can't wait until HDMI 2.1 makes this a standard expected feature on both monitors and TVs.
PowerThroughLov
Member
Variable refresh displays don't hide low framerates.
They enable variable framerates to be used and not feel terrible like they do on fixed refresh rate displays.
You still need to target good consistent performance with FreeSync, it just handles things better if the framerate is not 100% locked to 30/60.
If a "60 FPS" game hovers around 55-65 FPS on a VRR display, you may not even notice.
If it drops from 60 to 40, you definitely will.
It's not going to be as bad as that would be on a fixed refresh rate display, where you're going to notice every single frame it drops below 60, but it still doesn't excuse things like dropping from 60 to 40, or running consistently below 30 FPS.
So I don't think it's really a solution to old hardware not being able to run games well.
It will probably prolong its life somewhat at least, compared to a console that can only support fixed refresh-rate displays though.
With regard to adaptive sync the big difference between Freesync 1 and 2 is that the former is, beyond a placet of accepting an adaptive sync signal, only a set of soft recommendations while the latter comes with requirements like G-Sync already does. Common case is LFC (low framerate compensation) that can only work when the frequency range allowed by the display is big enough to easily double frequencies below the minimum displayable frequency without then exceeding the display's maximum. G-Sync required that from the beginning while Freesync (1) didn't, resulting in plenty cheaper Freesync monitors incapable of LFC.
I don't know whether HDMI 2.1 Game Mode VRR is the same as Freesync/adaptive sync over HDMI, but I hope both are based on the existing adaptive sync standard extension introduced in DP 1.2a.
MisterXDTV
Member
This, people are reading the article wrong. There is no way that Scorpio has a full spec HDMI 2.1 port because... it's not even a thing yet.
Scorpio has a HDMI 2.0 port with SOME features added from the future HDMI 2.1. One of these features is VRR
HDMI 2.1 will be the market standard years from now (next-gen)
VincentMatts
Member
Was this posted?
DF video about it: https://www.digitalfoundry.net/2017-04-11-project-scorpio-supports-freesync
Nevermind, in OP
DF video about it: https://www.digitalfoundry.net/2017-04-11-project-scorpio-supports-freesync
Nevermind, in OP
Metalingus5150
Member
I wonder...Would a 30fps feel better to play with freesync vs how we have it now on consoles?
No but... unlocked framerates will be better than 30fps
MaulerX
Member
DF were the ones that called it a game changer. And for good reason at that. This affects actual gameplay (4K in and of itself does not). We'll be enjoying the tech before next gen and next gen consoles can be glad we have something like this now to help pave the way for them.
This is good. This will really benefit those games that have unstable framerate that fluctuates from say 30-27,25ish and 60-50fps. This will make those dips almost imperceptible. This is really nice.
Also, this is probably handled at the system level given that previous X1 games and X360 games are supported.
EDIT: Rereading the article, its already mentioned that this is handled at the system level. Cool.
Also, this is probably handled at the system level given that previous X1 games and X360 games are supported.
EDIT: Rereading the article, its already mentioned that this is handled at the system level. Cool.
dr_rus
Member
Very much doubtful that HDMI 2.1 will use whatever is made by VESA for DP. Freesync over HDMI 2.1 will most likely be a totally new VRR implementation. Hence why it is an interesting question - will Freesync 2 output be able to run adaptive since on a Freesync 1 device? If such output will contain only HDMI 2.1 VRR implementation then this is unlikely - and this would mean that Scorpio won't support adaptive sync on Freesync 1 displays.
It is actually a bit weird that they are even using Freesync branding for this in Scorpio since all the software stack of Xbox is completely Microsoft made, and Freesync is basically just this - a software implementation of adaptive sync on top of h/w specs from VESA / HDMI / whomever. I don't really get why MS would license Freesync from AMD, especially if it's a new implementation for HDMI 2.1 and not the existing one, for DP1.2a+.
So, again, we need more technical details to make anything out of this reveal.
Maybe because in the here and now the only place to get or experience adaptive refresh rate is on Freesync monitors. I suspect FreeSync 2 is compatible with FreeSync 1. The article certainly makes it seem as though Scorpio supports both.
captainraincoat
Banned
I cant play games on tv since i started playing cod on a pc monitor back in the 360 days.
This is a very great addition...real gamers dont use tvs to play their console's on as you can get superior performance at a fraction of the cost on a pc monitor
This is a very great addition...real gamers dont use tvs to play their console's on as you can get superior performance at a fraction of the cost on a pc monitor
No, exactly 30 fps wouldn't. 28fps would though. With freesync the tv would run at 28hz (or a multitude of that) with traditional vsync it would run at 20fps (with all the sluggishness) or without vsync it would run at 28fps but have tearing artifacts, because the image changes while it's being drawn.
real gamers
Nvidia charges an arm and leg for their GSync module.
Radical Edward
Member
If you say so
I bought a KS7/8000 in November, so I am emotionally invested in the idea of my TV being excellent for years to come.
Saying that, with PS4 Pro and Scorpio, it seems like the mid-range console bump is (realstically) going to be about more stable frame rates more than 4K whizz-bang high-texture everything.
But surely with more stable framerates, the need for free/v-sync and similar technologies is lessened?
Isn't all this going to be more useful when the next console generation launches and presumably we'll have the same kind of discussion about FPS and resolution with new tech?
Saying that, with PS4 Pro and Scorpio, it seems like the mid-range console bump is (realstically) going to be about more stable frame rates more than 4K whizz-bang high-texture everything.
But surely with more stable framerates, the need for free/v-sync and similar technologies is lessened?
Isn't all this going to be more useful when the next console generation launches and presumably we'll have the same kind of discussion about FPS and resolution with new tech?
Not sure why you talk about MS "licensing Freesync". The technical capability is already part of the GPU they buy from AMD. The adaptive sync transport they use is not Freesync but HDMI 2.1 Game Mode VRR of which we don't yet know how they compare. And the Freesync mention is specifically about Freesync 2 which moves tone mapping management from the display into the GPU, allowing both lagfree dynamic HDR as well as switch from and to SDR; of this we also don't know yet if that's fully achievable through HDMI 2.1's Dynamic HDR alone.
Also the talk about "implementations" as if that is some ground up work is bollocks, the technical ability for variable frequencies in display panels exists since ages and has been accessible through eDP also for ages. All that G-Sync and Freesync (and VRR will) differ in is the handling of transporting the data until it reaches said eDP interface.
You seem concerned enough for all of us. Thanks for that.
Are you rocking Gunnars and a high performance gaming chair too?
FingerBang
Member
Wow, this was unexpected! Great job!
Hopefully Sony will do the same and FreeSync will become the standard.
Hopefully Sony will do the same and FreeSync will become the standard.
Hawk269
Member
For fucks sake. Really man?
If MS announces next week that instead of Achievement Points, the system will print a $50.00 bill every time you gain an achievement and people here will still find something to bitch about. For example...."Well in my country, the exchange rate is not good and you fucking yanks get a bigger amount of money for the same achievements...typical fucking M$."
Joking of course...but you have to admit, no matter what MS shows or tells us, there are some that will still find something to complain about.
dr_rus
Member
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4804:4j3n87.2.2
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4804:4j3n87.2.3
Freesync is a registered trademark of AMD. For anyone to use it they must license it.
Implementation is very complex and not "bollocks" at all - that's why it took AMD almost a year to create Freesync while the "technical ability for variable frequencies" existed "since ages". And it took them two more years to reach what could be called a feature parity with gsync.
Most people really underestimate the amount of effort needed to drive all this.
Ploid 3.0
Member
It's good for future proofing though. When TV's start adding freesync for some reason, most likely because popular consoles start using them, they can tuck them away into game mode setting, it will be nice for Scorpio owners to break out the console to play their unlocked fluctuating framerate games. Or maybe they'd just end up getting a incredible monitor with fresync capability and think, "hey I have a scorpio, it uses this, I should give it a test."
I know! I'm questioning the ability of the casuals to acknowledge and appreciate this feature. G-Sync/Freesync are awesome features and everybody should have it but I don't know if anybody else besides my gamer friends knows about them despite being on the market for such a long time.
Marty Chinn
Member
Nah, I'd rather have my Pioneer Kuro Elite.
Yes, AMD took some time and has an implementation. Do you seriously expect Microsoft not to use that and instead invent its own?
And Freesync being a trademark is fine and all, but where did you read Microsoft intends to make use of that trademark? What for?
BlitzerRadic
Member
Saying this is a game changer is an overstatement and PR bait as VRR is already possible on current HDMI standards. PS4 Pro already has support for VRR as well as the only thing that is missing to enable it a TV that supports it.
captainraincoat
Banned
No..dining room wood chair actually
I spent just on $200aud for a 23inch 1ms acer monitor on my 360 years ago...to get the same level of performance on a tv i would if had to spend 3 grand.
These days i am using a samsung 4k monitor for my ps4 and a acer predator gsync for my pc
My only hope is that they have support for ultrawide monitors with the scorpio
MADGAME
Member
Wow much Doritos, so Mountain Dew