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PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)

Lady Gaia

Member
Just know that if the 4K was up-scaled we wouldn't even be hearing about it because that can already be done with your TV.

Only true if the native frame buffer is exactly 1080p, 720p, and doesn't take advantage of any other UHD improvements like enhanced color gamut (BT.2020 rocks!) or HDR. There are quite a few reasons why developers might still care even if only a small fraction of less demanding titles can render natively at 4K.

I think at this point most of the interesting interpretations have pretty much been laid on the table until there's more concrete information. It's likely all rehashing and rampant speculation until that happens.
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
So cross-posting here, but basically bioware confirming the idea that optimization will become even more difficult with this new hardware. This obviously won't change any opinions given it's how this stuff works on the internet, but it only further reinforces the thoughts of those on the side of the argument that this is a bad idea.
 
Just what I read, but Ps4 must render at 60 FPS for PSVR, they have a tech that doubles frame rate headset effect to 120 Fps. There is one display 1080p thats split.

The effect of the 60->120 "upscaling" is not good and looks often weird. Preferably every game should have native FPS at 90 or 120 in VR, but PS4 has not enough power to achieve this goal, even with low detailed graphics. That is the main reason for the PS4k.
 
It's up rendered

LsOw5Jv.png


OK now I'm confused. I thought up-rendering was just slang for natively drawing at a higher resolution than originally intended, but this is showing something totally different.
 
OK now I'm confused. I thought up-rendering was just slang for natively drawing at a higher resolution than originally intended, but this is showing something totally different.

He can't even get his own definition of up-rendering consistent. That just shows to me he has no idea what he's talking about and just grabbed on to the term and used it like a buzz word without fully understanding it.
 
In multi-threaded MIPS - by far. Sony are not idiots ; )

Dunno about that. The only thing that could stop people from posting ridicuous statements on message boards is thinking/researching before posting, and it's always easier to be ignorant. Blessed are the ignorants, or something.
I totally understand your point.

3 out-of-order PPC cores @ 1.24 GHz should be faster than a single, in-order PPC core @ 3.2 GHz in multi-threaded MIPS. The Cell was really bad MIPS-wise (worse than an Intel Atom at half the frequency!!!) and yet, ND managed to write some wonderful NPC AI for TLOU. No wonder Uncharted 4's AI is so much better on the 8-core Jaguar.

It's just the SIMD/flops part that makes Cell superior... I think the Espresso CPU tops at 20 Gflops or something.

I remember Project Cars devs saying that the Wii U CPU couldn't handle the physics code (which involves highly parellelizable code/matrix operations)... most people don't know the difference between MIPS and flops. Totally different metrics.

I guess they could write GPGPU code for the Wii U, but the GPU is VLIW and not GCN like the PS4/X1, so that makes things a little bit more challenging for low-level coding.
 

bitbydeath

Gold Member
From what I understand from the images and all that has been said.

Upscaling : GPU draws a 1080p image and stretches the pixels to make a 4K image.
Uprendering: GPU draws a 1080p image and an algorithm adds in the missing pixels to make up a 4K image.
Native: GPU draws a 4K image.
 

onQ123

Member
You explained that they simply just render it at a higher resolution which doesn't explain any difference between a native rendering at 4K and an up-rendering at 4K. You can't even explain how this affects performance between the two techniques. So yes, you ran with a buzz word without any understanding what it actually means nor how it works, what the costs let alone what the trade offs are. You're simply saying it just is, without telling us why it is. Now your only justification to defend it is simply because why would someone say up-rendered 4K?

How can I explain to you how it affects performance when we don't know what hardware is going to be in the PS4K for the task or what method they will be using?
 
From what I understand from the images and all that has been said.

Upscaling : GPU draws a 1080p image and stretches the pixels to make a 4K image.
Uprendering: GPU draws a 1080p image and an algorithm adds in the missing pixels to make up a 4K image.

Here's a hint. Upscaling is just an algorithm that adds in the missing pixels.

How can I explain to you how it affects performance when we don't know what hardware is going to be in the PS4K for the task or what method they will be using?

Because the concepts still apply even without knowing the hardware. Just like everyone knows it takes longer more to hit 60 fps over 30 fps. Everyone knows it takes more to render at 1080p over 720p. Not knowing the hardware doesn't change these fundamental concepts. So if you actually understand what you're talking about, you should be able to tell us how the two techniques differ in performance and what the trade offs are in the process. Or you could just admit that you really don't know what you're talking about and you're just latching on to something you saw but didn't fully understand.
 

onQ123

Member
He can't even get his own definition of up-rendering consistent. That just shows to me he has no idea what he's talking about and just grabbed on to the term and used it like a buzz word without fully understanding it.

More like you have no ideal so you're confused as to why I understand & you don't.
 

Caayn

Member
From what I understand from the images and all that has been said.

Upscaling : GPU draws a 1080p image and stretches the pixels to make a 4K image.
Uprendering: GPU draws a 1080p image and an algorithm adds in the missing pixels to make up a 4K image.
Native: GPU draws a 4K image.
Only two of those three listed items are actually different.
How can I explain to you how it affects performance when we don't know what hardware is going to be in the PS4K for the task or what method they will be using?
You can have a baseline for performance without knowing the hardware it's on. For example to traverse a tree structure will take O(log n) time to search for a node inside the structure whereas the same query in an array would be O(1). Yet the actual execution time will depend on the hardware it's running on. (This is dumbed down a bit.)

Different implementation, same end-result yet I still have a very good estimate on the performance impact without knowing the actual hardware.

Now I'm not a graphics programming, so don't take my anology 1-1 with graphics related task. But my point is that you can always make an estimate of the impact of an algorithme without knowing the hardware.
 
More like you have no ideal so you're confused as to why I understand & you don't.

Well explain it to me then. Explain it to all of us. There's a lot of people here asking you to explain how it differs from native rendering and you can't do it. In fact you're the only one claiming it backed with an image that shows a technique in line with upscaling and not native rendering. You can't. You still can't. I asked you a basic technical overview question and you can't even answer that. Your only answer is you understand it and I don't but you can't explain it, you don't understand the performance concept behind it, and have done nothing but to show you don't understand what you're talking about.
 

Metfanant

Member
More like you have no ideal so you're confused as to why I understand & you don't.

You gotta stop bro...you're just making yourself look bad

There are all sorts of algorithms and techniques for upscaling...you wanna call it up-rendering? That's fine, but the PS4k will no have anywhere near the power to actually render a AAA PS4 game at 4k..its quite plainly going to upscale the game to 4k...probably using a quality algorithm, that will likely outperform the upacaler in your TV or receiver...and won't introduce input lag on the back end because it's being handled by the GPU prior to being output to your receiver or TV...
 
1. Clone
2. Create
3. N/A

???

Most people say "upscaling" when referring to what apparently now is referred to as "uprendering" out of sudden. "Cloning" pixels would be nearest-neighbour scaling, a specific scaling method that no one refers to as upscaling because it mostly leaves the picture as is (which doesn't mean it's useless, it's just simple).
 

Metfanant

Member
From what I understand from the images and all that has been said.

Upscaling : GPU draws a 1080p image and stretches the pixels to make a 4K image.
Uprendering: GPU draws a 1080p image and an algorithm adds in the missing pixels to make up a 4K image.
Native: GPU draws a 4K image.

1. Clone
2. Create
3. N/A

???

No, you're just talking about two different algorithms for upscaling an image...

"Cloning" as you put it, works fine if you're moving between resolutions that divide evenly...for instance 1080p --> 4k. You can make a single 1080p pixel = 4 identical 4k pixels...

Given the same screen size, the resulting image will be IDENTICAL on both a 1080p or 4k screen
 

bitbydeath

Gold Member
No, you're just talking about two different algorithms for upscaling an image...

"Cloning" as you put it, works fine if you're moving between resolutions that divide evenly...for instance 1080p --> 4k. You can make a single 1080p pixel = 4 identical 4k pixels...

Given the same screen size, the resulting image will be IDENTICAL on both a 1080p or 4k screen

So you think uprendering isnt just an advanced algorithim?

What is it then?
 

onQ123

Member
You gotta stop bro...you're just making yourself look bad

There are all sorts of algorithms and techniques for upscaling...you wanna call it up-rendering? That's fine, but the PS4k will no have anywhere near the power to actually render a AAA PS4 game at 4k..its quite plainly going to upscale the game to 4k...probably using a quality algorithm, that will likely outperform the upacaler in your TV or receiver...and won't introduce input lag on the back end because it's being handled by the GPU prior to being output to your receiver or TV...

I call it uprendering because it's uprendering.


AnVyhdC.png


The uprendering produces images and/or frames at higher definition and/or at increased resolutions over the source images or frames. Further, the uprendering at least in part enables sub-pixel-accurate adjustments to an uprendered image while retaining an accurate model of the original legacy application rendering process. Further, some embodiments retain the deterministic method of point-sampling that many legacy titles employ in order to be rendered correctly. Combination of multiple rendered images with sub-pixel offsets and the coalescing of these images results in a single higher-resolution uprendered result. The reference image, which in many embodiments is effectively the original non-adjusted image, is generated as a non-redundant step of the uprendering process, and can be used as source data for functions of the legacy application that may expect original image data (e.g., reading back pre-processed image and/or texture data, and the like), and/or may be used in generating improved post-processing effects (e.g., a motion vector upscaler, edge smoothing, etc.). Additionally, in some embodiments, the uprendering retains the original (legacy) render target size and vector scale, while altering fixed-point sampling offsets. One of the advantages of this approach is that it retains the deterministic method of point-sampling that some legacy titles utilize in order to be rendered correctly.

Further, some embodiments utilize the uprendering in performing progressive upconversion to convert interlaced multimedia signals into a progressive output signal. As is known in the art, interlaced content and/or titles typically render a frame as two half-resolution fields or images per 30 Hz frame. For example, many legacy computer electronic games were developed to be displayed on cathode ray tube (CRT) televisions and accordingly produce frames by displaying an even image (i.e., an image that displays the even rows of pixels of a frame) and subsequently displaying an odd image (i.e., an image that displays the odd rows of pixels of the same frame). Moreover, at least some interlaced legacy titles often use a half-pixel shift between images or fields of a frame, for example, to reduce the amount of jitter perceived by the user. Accordingly, a [640×448] resolution frame is displayed as an even image that includes the even rows of the frame, and an odd image that includes the odd rows of the frame (which in some instances includes a half pixel shift, often in the Y direction). For example, a [640×448] resolution frame may be represented as:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2016/0005344.html
 

spwolf

Member
We're saying based off that image that was posted, it's simply upscaling. Are you saying it's not upscaling? Nobody is saying an algorithm isn't involved.

Well, without being drawn into this semantics battle - I can see them using different term for upscaling the image via some algo and delivering the 4k picture to the TV vs delivering 1080p to the TV and letting it upscale it.

It is silly to argue about this right now when nothing is known basically. But yes, they will likely want to use different term for their upscaling method if it is doing something significantly different than what PS4 does right now when it outputs to 4k TVs. It also makes sense to do that as well.
 

Metfanant

Member
So you think uprendering isnt just an advanced algorithim?

What is it then?
yes, it's an advanced algorithm for upscaling an image

I call it uprendering because it's uprendering.


AnVyhdC.png




http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2016/0005344.html

You're simply arguing semantics..it's an advanced method taking an image, and creating a higher resolution version of the same image...

Or...

Upscaling...

Well, without being drawn into this semantics battle - I can see them using different term for upscaling the image via some algo and delivering the 4k picture to the TV vs delivering 1080p to the TV and letting it upscale it.

It is silly to argue about this right now when nothing is known basically. But yes, they will likely want to use different term for their upscaling method if it is doing something significantly different than what PS4 does right now when it outputs to 4k TVs. It also makes sense to do that as well.

It's semantics, pure and simple...like when people started calling 1080p "full HD" and everyone forgot that 720p is also an HD resolution...then all of a sudden we had to create "Ultra HD."

If somebody wants to patent their fancy upscaling method and call it up-rendering..be my guest...but you're still trying to achieve them same goal
 
I agree it is a really fancy upscaler, but it is clearly what Sony is referring to their upscaler, and a different class than what is commonly referred to as simply upscaling due to it being able to utilize data from pre-processing and not only the pixels.

onQ123 was right on the money with their terminology and was attacked for it.
 

onQ123

Member
yes, it's an advanced algorithm for upscaling an image



You're simply arguing semantics..it's an advanced method taking an image, and creating a higher resolution version of the same image...

Or...

Upscaling...



It's semantics, pure and simple...like when people started calling 1080p "full HD" and everyone forgot that 720p is also an HD resolution...then all of a sudden we had to create "Ultra HD."

If somebody wants to patent their fancy upscaling method and call it up-rendering..be my guest...but you're still trying to achieve them same goal

It's using 4 images to create a new higher resolution image
 

XAL

Member
I maintain that this is an absolutely horrible idea and if it somehow comes to fruition I hope it bombs in a spectacular fashion.
 

DC1

Member
What the hell is going on in here???

I stepped in to say that "I can't wait to buy the PS4K BEEOCH-ESSS!!!"

But now I'm just an insecure lost malamute trying to figure out why there is an argument around upscaling.....without reading the last 3 pages.
 

DC1

Member
I maintain that this is an absolutely horrible idea and if it somehow comes to fruition I hope it bombs in a spectacular fashion.
Once you wash the windows of your perspective away you will come to the conclusion that this is "OK".
 

Metfanant

Member
I agree it is a really fancy upscaler, but it is clearly what Sony is referring to their upscaler, and a different class than what is commonly referred to as simply upscaling due to it being able to utilize data from pre-processing and not only the pixels.

onQ123 was right on the money with their terminology and was attacked for it.
He has been attacked because he seems to think that the two processes are completely different things..

Upscaling is taking one image and creating a higher resolution version of the same image...

Up-rendering is s Sony patented method of doing so...

Just like VTEC and VVT-i or two ways to achieve variable valve timing in cars...or Quattro vs 4matic vs x-drive vs sh-awd are all different ways to say "my car has all wheel driv.". All of those things are exclusive to specific OEM's and go about it differently, to achieve the same goal


It's using 4 images to create a new higher resolution image
Yes it is...to create a new, upscaled image
 

geordiemp

Member
How can I explain to you how it affects performance when we don't know what hardware is going to be in the PS4K for the task or what method they will be using?

Look, uprendering is the Sony upscaler.

I have a 4K TV., its a Panasonic upscaler, it does this using 20,000 texture database..

By using sophisticated upscaling technology that relies on a database of 120,000 textures, your 4K television will identify, enhance and create new pixels in order to render a vivid image in ultra high definition 4K.

I am sure allot of high end 4K TV's will have their special proprietary upscalers. They might all have nice names...

Guess what, I dont really care...a brick is a brick, its an upscaler and its not important.

If PS4.5 can do 60 fps on AAA games, it will fly, IF it cant and is just a minor bump., nobody will care.

Zen + GDDR5X or bust. We can wait Sony, do it properly.
 

XAL

Member
Once you wash the windows of you your perspective away you will come to the conclusion that this is "OK".

If it's a great success it's going to be a future where you're re-buying a brand new slightly updated console at full price mid cycle because if you don't future big games will run poorly if at all on the old model.

Yeah I'm not looking forward to throwing down another $300-600 bucks.
 

DC1

Member
Look, uprendering is the Sony upscaler.

I have a 4K TV., its a Panasonic upscaler, it does this using 20,000 texture database..



I am sure allot of high end 4K TV's will have their special proprietary upscalers. They might all have nice names...

Guess what, I dont really care...a brick is a brick, its an upscaler and its not important.

If PS4.5 can do 60 fps on AAA games, it will fly, IF it cant and is just a minor bump., nobody will care.

Zen + GDDR5X or bust.

Someone gets it :)
 

DC1

Member
If it's a great success it's going to be a future where you're re-buying a brand new slightly updated console at full price mid cycle because if you don't future big games will run poorly if at all on the old model.

Yeah I'm not looking forward to throwing down another $300-600 bucks.
Here's the rubber duck:

As long as Sony does not gate/create games exclusive to the PS4K then, we are good.

It's a card upgrade at best. And we should be cool with that.

Anything else is a problem.
 

leeh

Member
Look, uprendering is the Sony upscaler.

I have a 4K TV., its a Panasonic upscaler, it does this using 20,000 texture database..



I am sure allot of high end 4K TV's will have their special proprietary upscalers. They might all have nice names...

Guess what, I dont really care...a brick is a brick, its an upscaler and its not important.

If PS4.5 can do 60 fps on AAA games, it will fly, IF it cant and is just a minor bump., nobody will care.

Zen + GDDR5X or bust. We can wait Sony, do it properly.
4k TVs don't need fancy upscalers. 1080p scales perfectly twice into 4k.

Upscalling a single image is different to generating a higher resolution image from different frames.

It's like comparing single photos to panaramas.
 

geordiemp

Member
4k TVs don't need fancy upscalers. 1080p scales perfectly twice into 4k.

Upscalling a single image is different to generating a higher resolution image from different frames.

It's like comparing single photos to panaramas.

I am sure the Pany 20,000 texture data base upscaler is a bit more involved than 2 x 1080p, but what do I you you know. Is Sony's better, who knows.

Dont care much either way.
 

TEH-CJ

Banned
All this 4k stuff is confusing as hell. I have a sony 4k tv with the latest hdmi cables. Can the ps4 currently take advantage of the expanded colour 4k is capable of?
 

Metfanant

Member
4k TVs don't need fancy upscalers. 1080p scales perfectly twice into 4k.

Upscalling a single image is different to generating a higher resolution image from different frames.

It's like comparing single photos to panaramas.

If you think companies are not creating fancy upscalers in an attempt to create a "more detailed" 4k image out of a 1080p image you're crazy...it's not a question of whether the image "needs" that upacaler...the algorithms are at work...

Do you honestly think this is the first time we've seen upscaling by using previous frames? Seriously?

It's also nothing like comparing a single photo to a panoramic photo...a panoramic is literally stitching images together side by side to create an extreme wide angle...this is nothing of the sort
 

onQ123

Member
Look, uprendering is the Sony upscaler.

I have a 4K TV., its a Panasonic upscaler, it does this using 20,000 texture database..



I am sure allot of high end 4K TV's will have their special proprietary upscalers. They might all have nice names...

Guess what, I dont really care...a brick is a brick, its an upscaler and its not important.

If PS4.5 can do 60 fps on AAA games, it will fly, IF it cant and is just a minor bump., nobody will care.

Zen + GDDR5X or bust. We can wait Sony, do it properly.

Up-rendering is not something that belongs to Sony that's just a patent to their method. I have a 4K TV also & I know the difference between something being up scaled & something being rendered at a higher resolution.
 
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