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[GhostTrick]

No...there is a million different ways to upscale an image...

If you're starting with a lower resolution image and creating a larger resolution image whether you call it upscaling or up-rendering, or upressing, there will ALWAYS be a loss of quality...

Unless you're moving between two resolutions that divide equally, and the screen size remains the same (ie pixel density quadruples in 1080p --> 4k)...

Then you can achieve identical quality, but none of the additional image details you would get from a native 4k image

The point remains though. No matter what your upscale method, you'll be starting with a picture in which you can't get more details because it's already rendered.
While uprendering/upresing is about rendering the picture at higher res, not scaling it. It's basically your source 3D materiel rendered at higher resolution. And as you can see, 2D elements remains blurry, because they're already rendered in the base game files, then upscale, while 3D elements are uprendered/upresed.

 

[KOHIPEET]

The point remains though. No matter what your upscale method, you'll be starting with a picture in which you can't get more details because it's already rendered.
While uprendering/upresing is about rendering the picture at higher res, not scaling it. It's basically your source 3D materiel rendered at higher resolution. And as you can see, 2D elements remains blurry, because they're already rendered in the base game files, then upscale, while 3D elements are uprendered/upresed.

So it's essentially rendering at a higher resolution. That requires the same amount of power to render. No upscaling.

 

[onQ123]

It's actually quite simple really...

You start with an image..apply a set of algorithms..the result, is an image with a higher resolution than the original image...

Upscaling...

You're still dealing with a large amount of "fake" pixels..

You really don't get it do you? lol

 

[GhostTrick]

So it's essentially rendering at a higher resolution. That requires the same amount of power to render. No upscaling.

Basically. There's no magic, no secret sauce.

 

[Metfanant]

The point remains though. No matter what your upscale method, you'll be starting with a picture in which you can't get more details because it's already rendered.
While uprendering/upresing is about rendering the picture at higher res, not scaling it. It's basically your source 3D materiel rendered at higher resolution. And as you can see, 2D elements remains blurry, because they're already rendered in the base game files, then upscale, while 3D elements are uprendered/upresed.

No, not really...the cause you're still dealing with multiple samples of images at lower resolutions...you can't take 4 1080p frames and create more details out of them no matter how you smush them together...the detail simply isn't there..

What you're talking about is literally just rendering the image from scratch at a higher resolution...which is completely different...

That's not "up-rendering" that's just rendering

 

[potatohead]

No, not really...the cause you're still dealing with multiple samples of images at lower resolutions...you can't take 4 1080p frames and create more details out of them no matter how you smush them together...the detail simply isn't there..

What you're talking about is literally just rendering the image from scratch at a higher resolution...which is completely different...

You can, at least that's what they are talking about. Sampling the same frame slightly differently and recomposing it.

It's not simply taking the exact same image 4 times.

 

[GhostTrick]

No, not really...the cause you're still dealing with multiple samples of images at lower resolutions...you can't take 4 1080p frames and create more details out of them no matter how you smush them together...the detail simply isn't there..

What you're talking about is literally just rendering the image from scratch at a higher resolution...which is completely different...

Of course you can't do that !
I never said such a thing
And yes, that's what I'm talking about
Isn't it what we're talking about with "uprendering" ? Which basically means to me, rendering at a higher resolution ?

 

[Metfanant]

You can, at least that's what they are talking about. Sampling the same frame slightly differently and recomposing it.

It's not simply taking the exact same image 4 times.

No, you can't...the details are not there...you have to CREATE them through the upscaling process...this CANNOT achieve the same results as a native image

Of course you can't do that !
I never said such a thing
And yes, that's what I'm talking about
Isn't it what we're talking about with "uprendering" ? Which basically means to me, rendering at a higher resolution ?

As I understood the argument in regards to the PS4k we were talking about how this thing was going to play games that would normally be in 1080p (or lower) on the OGPS4, but instead at 4k through some magic pixie dust/unicorn semen combination

 

[potatohead]

No, you can't...the details are not there...you have to CREATE them through the upscaling process...this CANNOT achieve the same results as a native image

You need to look at that diagram onQ posted again, and why the term uprendering is being used rather than just rendering at higher resolution.

This is the common method for emulators at least.

 

[lyrick]

It's up rendered

It's on the same page as calling the interlacing of multiple previous frames of of Killzone Shadow Fall 1080p, interlacing is not rendering a 1080p image. Interlacing data from previous frame renders is not rendering a new frame.

It's essentially a bullshit work around.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

He drops info, but no one wants to believe it. So much denial.

So iyo are these rumors legit?

 

[Obliterator]

He drops info, but no one wants to believe it. So much denial.

Being skeptical at the moment is a very good call.

Hope Osiris is right though.

 

[Metfanant]

You need to look at that diagram onQ posted again, and why the term uprendering is being used rather than just rendering at higher resolution.

This is the common method for emulators at least.

I'm seeing the image just fine. You're still taking a frame, and a previous number of frames and processing those frames, or information from those frames together to make a new, higher resolution frame...

You don't magically have a native 4k image...you have an upscaled 4k image that looks pretty damn good, but not as good as a native image would

It's on the same page as calling the interlacing of multiple previous frames of of Killzone Shadow Fall 1080p, interlacing is not rendering a 1080p image. Interlacing data from previous frame renders is not rendering a new frame.

It's essentially a bullshit work around.

Cha-ching!

The Killzone technique is actually probably closer to achieving a native image though, because you're keeping resolution the same...

 

[warheat]

Upscaling is basically taking the final output image and display it at your display resolution, which result in a quality loss.

Yes

Upres/Uprendering is basically rendering the 3D scene/image at a higher resolution and then display the final output image as native res.

When your device is only capable of rendering 720p native and somehow you need to output it as 1080p signal, there's always a quality loss no matter what algorithm is used, people called this process upscaling.

When your device is capable of rendering 1080p native and you need to output it as 1080p signal, people call this native rendering. So is this what you mean by uprender? Because people have been asking Qo about these difference in the last few pages.

 

[onQ123]

No, you can't...the details are not there...you have to CREATE them through the upscaling process...this CANNOT achieve the same results as a native image



As I understood the argument in regards to the PS4k we were talking about how this thing was going to play games that would normally be in 1080p (or lower) on the OGPS4, but instead at 4k through some magic pixie dust/unicorn semen combination

You're not creating the details you are getting them from grabbing sub pixels from different views.

like taking a 2MP camera & snapping 4 shifted images to make a 8MP image.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Been reading the last 2-3 pages and people getting on onQ123, even though he used the correct word though.
But a picture is worth a thousand words:

Upscaled:

Uprendered/Upresed:

Upscaled:

Uprendered/Upresed:

Upscaling is basically taking the final output image and display it at your display resolution, which result in a quality loss. Upres/Uprendering is basically rendering the 3D scene/image at a higher resolution and then display the final output image as native res.

Thank you for this. Much better answer here. Uprendering is basically what you see all the fancy emulators do by rendering PS1 games at a higher resolution and making it much better than we remember. Upscaling isn't making the picture quality that better, but just scaling the image to whatever resolution you want it to.

 

[diaspora]

Uprendering in 4k, or essentially just rendering in 4k would be essentially equally hardware intensive and implausible given the hardware rumours about this thing.

 

[Metfanant]

You're not creating the details you are getting them from grabbing sub pixels from different views.

like taking a 2MP camera & snapping 4 shifted images to make a 8MP image.

THE DETAILS DONT EXIST! You can't "take" them from anywhere, because they don't exist...

you can take the 4 1080p frames and use your fancy maths to approximate what those new details SHOULD (according to your algorithm) look like in 4k and then render the image...

That's upscaling...

Or, you can actually render (or capture if you're dealing with pictures or video) the image in real native 4k...

One is right...one will look close...

Thank you for this. Much better answer here.

Except, that doesn't actually explain what's being discussed...

Uprendering in 4k, or essentially just rendering in 4k would be essentially equally hardware intensive and implausible given the hardware rumours about this thing.

That's the other side of this coin right there...if this process is equally taxing (or even more so according to some in this thread) then what's the point?

1. You would get better results from a true native image anyway

2. At 2x GPU power, no way will the PS4k actually render say CoD, or Battlefield, or Assassins Creed in 4k

 

[CosmicQueso]

Being skeptical at the moment is a very good call.

Being skeptical at the scope some are projecting is a good call, yes. IMO, of course.

 

[warheat]

You're not creating the details you are getting them from grabbing sub pixels from different views.

like taking a 2MP camera & snapping 4 shifted images to make a 8MP image.

No matter what algorithm you used, you cannot do this unless you're rendering at higher resolution because the original picture doesn't have that information.

 

[Planet]

The question that comes to my mind is: where do those other 3 different 1080p images come from?

 

[Metfanant]

The question that comes to my mind is: where do those other 3 different 1080p images come from?

According to the documents, it would be the three previously rendered 1080p frames

 

[onQ123]

The question that comes to my mind is: where do those other 3 different 1080p images come from?

From the 2nd GPU

 

[Obliterator]

Being skeptical at the scope some are projecting is a good call, yes. IMO, of course.

Being skeptical of the 4k existing is not a good call.

Bering skeptical at what's written in that OP is, imo of course.

 

[CosmicQueso]

Being skeptical of the 4k existing is not a good call.

Bering skeptical at what's written in that OP is, imo of course.

Our imos agree.

 

[Obliterator]

Our imos agree.

Good guy Cosmic strikes again

 

[diaspora]

I'm not really skeptical of the PS4K's existence as much as I am of its ability to do much more than what the PS4 is capable of doing at present. You're not going to get a big resolution gain with a GPU with twice the processing power. Smoother performance probably, minor resolution gains sure but beyond this is I think unlikely.

 

[Metfanant]

I'm not really skeptical of the PS4K's existence as much as I am of its ability to do much more than what the PS4 is capable of doing at present. You're not going to get a big resolution gain with a GPU with twice the processing power. Smoother performance probably, minor resolution gains sure but beyond this is I think unlikely.

Agree 100%...

That said, I'll still probably buy it lol

 

[Dictator93]

From the 2nd GPU

Dual GPU?

Why would sony make things more complex and less efficient after spending time making the PS4 simpler and more efficient?

 

[diaspora]

Like if ME Andromeda comes out on both platforms I can realistically see it being 900p on PS4 and 1080p on the PS4K, but I do t expect any developer to do much more than this. At best, first party games might run smoother imo.

Edit: the dual GPU theory is a joke right? Because that's the stupidest thing I've ever seen

 

[dead monkey uk]

It would be great if the PS4K had a second HDMI output strictly for audio so that you could get lossless audio without upgrading your receiver.

You could achieve the same results by using a HDMI splitter between the PS4K and screen/receiver.
4K splitter £30 http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00I8KILQ4/

 

[Zoator]

I'm not really skeptical of the PS4K's existence as much as I am of its ability to do much more than what the PS4 is capable of doing at present. You're not going to get a big resolution gain with a GPU with twice the processing power. Smoother performance probably, minor resolution gains sure but beyond this is I think unlikely.

It depends on what your definition of "big resolution gain" is. 1080p to 4K is a huge jump, and obviously a 2x bump in GPU performance isn't going to cut it if we expect the graphics quality to remain constant. However, a game that used to be 720p can easily be bumped to 1080p, or a game that was 1080p could be bumped to 1440p (which would still show benefits on a 4K TV, even if it is upscaled from there).

Really, though, I think the biggest impact the PS4K will have is on VR, where a rock solid 1080p and 60fps is essential, and the current PS4 is woefully underpowered compared to the recommended PC specs of its VR competitors.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Being skeptical of the 4k existing is not a good call.

Bering skeptical at what's written in that OP is, imo of course.

I'm glad I'm not alone here. It doesn't help the OP's case that he keeps nipping in to see if anyone else has added any info and then disappears again.

 

[poodpick]

You could achieve the same results by using a HDMI splitter between the PS4K and screen/receiver.
4K splitter £30 http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00I8KILQ4/

Does that add any input lag and can it handle hdmi 2.0a + hdcp 2.2?

Edit: I'm sure that there are hdcp 2.2 compliant splitters but I'm not sure how much more expensive they'll be.

 

[blastprocessor]

I can't believe there's a 2nd GPU. I hope it's not true.

 

[onQ123]

Dual GPU?

Why would sony make things more complex and less efficient after spending time making the PS4 simpler and more efficient?

Funny it didn't seem to be too complex for GT5 & GT6

 

[florin3k3]

I have a 55 inch 4K panny 802x, and I just watch 1080p stuff, I hae a few 4K demos and I need to put glasses on and get close. Once you having to pause and move towards the TV and squint with reading glasses at fine details....nah for me...

IMO you dont need 4K, its hardly noticeable, I sit 8 ft from this TV. Most posters seem to want a more capable 60 FPS console for games like the witcher, or no mans sky PSVR....etc

I can easily tell DVD vs blu ray. Blu ray vs 4K I just dont see THAT MUCH BENEFIT, but I guess it is noticeable.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-resolution-201312153517.htm

To me the difference from 1080p to 4K is the same as the one from SD to HD. (i.e. Huge)

 

[Hexa]

Funny it didn't seem to be too complex for GT5 & GT6

There's a reason only two games over the entire course of the generation used it.
Because it's really fucking annoying. It was only done because no improved PS3 was going to come out.
It's far less efficient than just putting the money towards a more powerful GPU so it makes absolutely no sense to do that when Sony is actually upgrading the hardware.

Been reading the last 2-3 pages and people getting on onQ123, even though he used the correct word though.
But a picture is worth a thousand words:

Upscaling is basically taking the final output image and display it at your display resolution, which result in a quality loss. Upres/Uprendering is basically rendering the 3D scene/image at a higher resolution and then display the final output image as native res.

Except that's not at all what onQ123 is claiming uprendering is, or at least not what he's claiming it is now. His definition of it has been pretty malleable.

 

[dead monkey uk]

Does that add any input lag and can it handle hdmi 2.0a + hdcp 2.2?

Edit: I'm sure that there are hdcp 2.2 compliant splitters but I'm not sure how much more expensive they'll be.

I did not know about hdmi 2.2 until your post the first one I posted does not support it, but this one does, and is the same price. http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00IJ17KR8/

In regards to input lag I do not know, I am sure someone in this type of thread will have used one.

 

[GhostTrick]

Funny it didn't seem to be too complex for GT5 & GT6

I don't see why would you thing dual gpu would be better. It's a pain in the ass, it's a notorious thing. It's not because it works for some games that it's a good solution.

 

[onQ123]

There's a reason only two games over the entire course of the generation used it.
Because it's really fucking annoying. It was only done because no improved PS3 was going to come out.
It's far less efficient than just putting the money towards a more powerful GPU so it makes absolutely no sense to do that when Sony is actually upgrading the hardware.

Maybe because they know that not many people have 2 - 4 monitors & PS3's


Making a game render across 2 GPU's can't be more complex then making a game run across 2- 4 PS3's

GT5 & 6 are the same games that run on 1 PS3 so why would it be so hard to do the same with a PS4 game being rendered across 2 GPU's in a PS4K?

 

[AndyD]

Been reading the last 2-3 pages and people getting on onQ123, even though he used the correct word though.
But a picture is worth a thousand words:



Upscaling is basically taking the final output image and display it at your display resolution, which result in a quality loss. Upres/Uprendering is basically rendering the 3D scene/image at a higher resolution and then display the final output image as native res.

Great example, but you should use something with more detailed textures as it really shows off the detail difference at different resolutions.

 

[GhostTrick]

Maybe because they know that not many people have 2 - 4 monitors & PS3's


Making a game render across 2 GPU's can't be more complex then making a game run across 2- 4 PS3's

GT5 & 6 are the same games that run on 1 PS3 so why would it be so hard to do the same with a PS4 game being rendered across 2 GPU's in a PS4K?

Then again: It's not because it works that it's not a pain in the ass. Why would you want 2 GPU's instead of one bigger one ?

 

[Metfanant]

Funny it didn't seem to be too complex for GT5 & GT6

Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean you should...

I don't see why would you thing dual gpu would be better. It's a pain in the ass, it's a notorious thing. It's not because it works for some games that it's a good solution.

Sure, it would be more powerful, but it certainly wouldn't help keep games cross compatible with the OGPS4..

Maybe because they know that not many people have 2 - 4 monitors & PS3's


Making a game render across 2 GPU's can't be more complex then making a game run across 2- 4 PS3's

GT5 & 6 are the same games that run on 1 PS3 so why would it be so hard to do the same with a PS4 game being rendered across 2 GPU's in a PS4K?

But somehow the they are supposed to keep costs down, and keep things cross compatible with the OG...come on man...

 

[Obliterator]

2 GPU's sounds pretty crazy to me for a multitude of reasons. Would raise heating issues, space issues, programming issues, etc. I'm really not sure why any console manufacturer would ever use a dual GPU set up. I mean its not impossible but it would just be much more simple to go with a single more powerful GPU over dual.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Dual GPU's, Graphs, Scaling Arguments, Choosing Link's Sex somehow being so revolutionary, etc., ...

We really need new information on this and the NX, lol.

 

[three_muffins]

GT5 & 6 are the same games that run on 1 PS3 so why would it be so hard to do the same with a PS4 game being rendered across 2 GPU's in a PS4K?

That is far out in dreamland. Keep it realistic. Your speculation would reall bring the cost for the ps4k skyhigh.

Already said but still true.....why a dual gpu instead of a single more powerful one?

 

[vpance]

Dual GPU makes sense from the standpoint that all the chips they make can go towards both PS4 and PS4K.

SW compatibility wise might also good since regular games can keep working the same as usual without any clue of the existence of the 2nd GPU unless patched or some override in the OS to do this fancy uprendering thing.

3rd thing is that Sony could just rely on AMD's split frame rendering to make utilization of the 2nd GPU quite easy for devs.

 

[onQ123]

Then again: It's not because it works that it's not a pain in the ass. Why would you want 2 GPU's instead of one bigger one ?

If you're Sony & you been doing this trick for close to 10 years or more & you have it down to a science & know what's needed in hardware to achieve the end goal you can have special hardware made for the task.

 

[GhostTrick]

If you're Sony & you been doing this trick for close to 10 years or more & you have it down to a science & know what's needed in hardware to achieve the end goal you can have special hardware made for the task.

Doing this trick for cllse to 10 years ? They did it for two games which ran on the same engine !!
If you're an hardware manufacturer and do an upgrade, you deserve to close down for going the dual gpu path. Especially when GCN architecture is here to stay and you could just double the CU number. Why would you go for two 20CU GPUs when you could just take a 40CU gpu ?