ElectricBlanketFire
Member
I see we're still having to point this out.
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Rumor: Zelda coming to both Wii U + NX, choose between male/female link, VA for NPCs
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
I see we're still having to point this out.
OniBarubary
Banned
Good thing he's not in this thread.
AcademicSaucer
Member
The rumor doesn't say that the female playable character is female Link.
It could be Zelda playable sections.
I bet this is what it's like to explain Samus to Sakamoto.
That's only because you're looking at it from a specific angle to invalidate it, kind of like how most of the people in this thread are to invalidate Female Link/Female Avatar/Whatever she ends up being exactly.
I don't see anything inherently wrong with giving a choice of Link or Linkle, Mario or Maria, Samus or Sam, etc.
If they can fit it into thier vision of the game universe I see no issue with it, although I'd hope the characters are more than just a genderswap.
I don't see any particular reason why Zelda can't have this and I don't see any particular reason why Metroid can't either unless you're going to insist on keeping her characterization from Other M.
royox
Member
Of course. But do you expect Nintendo treating this matter on a Zelda game as Bioware would in Dragon Age or Mass Effect?
Bioware gives you diferent options, choices and reactions when talking to other people if you play Shepard or Femshep. I don't think Nintendo would do that on a Zelda game.
pd: And If they would and Link ended with Zelda and Flink with another guy people would still complain that Flink didn't ended with Zelda......it's the Neverending Story.
Green Mamba
Member
Nintendo already started doing that with Skyward Sword, so yeah, I could see them expanding it.
I thought a gendered played option was specified. That leads me to believe we won't have just Zelda playable sections.
Earthpainting
Member
I think I fall in the camp of preferring giving the player no choice. I see Link as a character, and not an avatar, so any customisation feels like we're eroding Link's identity. It doesn't matter to me if Link is male or female in a game, but as soon as we're given the choice, Link may as well replaced with a Mii. Choices open the floodgates of stripping away what little identifiable features Link has in "his" world. If you can choose Link's gender, you may as well be able to choose the weight, height, race, hair, or clothes at that point. It sounds like I'm making some leaps here, but I can't think a good reason why we'd stop at just the single modifier in the character customisation.
I'd be fine with any of those variations in Link's design and features, as long as it's locked in place for that game. I'd probably even welcome it. You'd have a fixed design that designers can fine-tune, can be referenced in the game world and integrated into the story if they want. The design will also become recognisable to all players who have played the game or have been exposed to the marketing. Crono from Chrono Trigger has pretty meagre characterisation in his own game, but I can describe Crono better than I can describe Shepard, Dovakin, the Inquisitor, or the Fallout wanderer.
Can't say I'm looking forward to all the inevitable bickering on which gender the superior protagonist is either. It plagued too many of the Mass Effect threads, so I don't expect it to be different here.
I'd be fine with any of those variations in Link's design and features, as long as it's locked in place for that game. I'd probably even welcome it. You'd have a fixed design that designers can fine-tune, can be referenced in the game world and integrated into the story if they want. The design will also become recognisable to all players who have played the game or have been exposed to the marketing. Crono from Chrono Trigger has pretty meagre characterisation in his own game, but I can describe Crono better than I can describe Shepard, Dovakin, the Inquisitor, or the Fallout wanderer.
Can't say I'm looking forward to all the inevitable bickering on which gender the superior protagonist is either. It plagued too many of the Mass Effect threads, so I don't expect it to be different here.
I'm literally looking at it as it's presented to people as it's written. Links are all literally several people taking place over several time periods each with their own families, lives, and backstories. Samus is one person in one time in one story. It's a false equivalency unless you want your headcanon to be taken on as real.
edit: Even worse that you're somehow comparing poor writing in Other M to changing the gender of a character.
It could be playable Zelda rather than Female Link though. Maybe the play throughs will be different like Chris/Jill or Leon/Claire too.
Could be pretty cool.
AcademicSaucer
Member
It could, but the rumor isn't specific, hence the poll up there.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=200633492&postcount=3227
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=200655096&postcount=3354
It's really not that hard to understand that people experience and connect with fictional characters and media differently than you do and don't focus on or value the same aspects as you. This is a series that has been less than consistent in its lore and history until recently, and even then it's not that great, and it has been around for a long long time. It's not at all surprising that some people have developed certain attachments and images of the series and its characters that vary wildly from other people's perceptions of them. Even the creators'.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Hopefully it's not like Captain Toad where you get a few stages as Toadette, but with no real logical reason why Toad and Toadette couldn't have just been choices, rather than forced to use one or the other.
Okay, Links are 9000 different people and Samus is one person. That gives absolutely no explanation as to why a playable male character in a Metroid game can't be done, it's simply using the tradition of Samus being the MC as a block for an idea you don't like, much like other people in this thread are doing when trying to say Zelda can't have a playable female character.
You are using a fact, which is indeed true as evidence, but it's irrelevant and has zero bearing on the actual discussion.
No, you misunderstand. I am saying that Samus has no defined character in the mainline games aside from Other M, so you're not losing anything by turning her into an optional character. She is a player Avatar with no substance just like Link.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Since it's not the stuff I listed, I'd like to know what makes Link a character to you. So please answer this then. What makes Link, Link?
You're literally making a different game at that point. The difference Zelda and Metroid is that the former is reliant on a hero of indeterminate gender- a hero that's different in each game. Metroid is reliant on a singular person- Samus unless you want to make a different game in the universe altogether like Federation Force.
Right, absolutely. But I thought you (AcademicSaucer) were saying the game could be sections comprised of both characters. I thought the rumor more indicated you pick one at the start, but I suppose I misread or was reading too much into it.
Ok, I can totally see now how I just read into it. So what you're both saying I can see now how it's possible. Thank you.
What will you do if it happens? A female Link with no option to play as a male? Will you make room in your headcanon for that or will you ignore the game altogether? There is clearly room in the lore for this to occur as people have already stated.
As a Star Wars fan, I have a headcanon in that I ignore some aspects of it and like to think that in an alternate reality, things were different. But I don't live in that reality, so I have to accept the bits in the films I dislike. It doesn't really come down to my interpretation of things, just the raw basic facts in front of my face.
Is the resistance to this really based on people's legitimate perceptions of character or a backlash against what they see as unwarranted progression? Would you really not be able to relate to/understand/accept an incarnation of a favourite character if that character had breasts and a vagina?
I mean, does it even really matter if the authors decide to go for this? Is it really going to change the game in any significant way that you wouldn't be able to play it any more? It's no different, visually, to playing as Wind Waker Link versus Ocarina Link.
EDIT: This reminds me of the Doctor Who fans who shit themselves in rage at the possibility of a female or black regeneration. I mean, if you cast someone who can pull off a convincing version of The Doctor, does it really matter what they look like? Similarly, if the girl in question has the hair, the tunic, the sword and the shield - who cares? Honestly?
You're putting a choice of a male or female avatar. Samus doesn't have to be the only MC in every game when she barely qualifies as a character anyway (Again aside from Other M).
But... she does? Each of the games pre-fusion have more of a deep look at Samus' personality through her actions than any of the games post-Fusion where she converses. Like Metroid 1 to Prime 1 is a story of revenge and rage. Not being able to see characterization isn't the same thing as not having one.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
You're comparing apples to oranges. Your argument with Metroid can be said about all series with a singular individual main character. That STILL wouldn't apply to Zelda has different main characters.
SilverLunar
Member
Thats what i am personally hoping for, female toggle will just be that, a cosmetic change.
She is literally a nothing character in Metroid 1, she doesn't even have a defined gender in that game,the instruction manual literally says she's a male. She has no dialogue and literally just goes around killing things. There is no character there.
2 and 3 have slightly more but it's about on the same level as one of the Links. Samus decides to save the baby
THE BABY THE BABY THE BABY
The Prime games are not mainline games
I'm comparing a Granny Smith to a Red Delicious. They are both apples but one doesn't fit your tastes so you try to discredit it and declare it an orange.
There have been plenty of series that started with you playing as the same character in the early series then split off and used different characters after. Metal Gear and Castlevania in particular come to mind as they both started with Solid Snake and Simon Belmont as the leads through the early games then branched out. Castlevania even put selectable leads in later games, some of which added females as an option.
This isn't a "no they can't do this" situation it's a "I don't like this so it's bad". There is literally no reason why they can't add an option.
The entire Metroid series is contextualized by Samus' dynamic against the legacy of her adopted and original families and this is reflected by her characterization and actions in every Metroid and Prime game between 1-4. Not understanding it isn't the same as it not existing- Mama Robotnik at least understood it well. Part of why Other M was a problem and why changing Samus' gender or introducing a male MC doesn't work is that you're removing the characterization and context the entire series relies on.
Yeah same here. It actually says in the rumor that all the characters other than Link would be voice acted too. If the female lead was not Link she could not only have her own scenario she could also have voice acting and a personality if it was looked into that way.
I'm not going to get my hopes up but this could potentially be really cool.
Who are you trying to convince here? Me or you?
You're giving these obcenely vague statements as to how she had character and personality but not going into any specifics whatsoever.
Please explain to me how she had characterization in the first game as I literally see nothing there. 2 and 3 as I stated before also seem to be extremely nothing characters on par with an average Link. If you actually have a basis in your argument I'd genuinely like to head it.
And again even if what you're saying is true there's still zero reason why Samus has to stay the sole MC regardless. Plenty of games have branched out after having a solo MC.
Do your own fucking research, play the games at least. Christ, like I said, Mama Robotnik's already given a ridiculously extensive write up on how her character is defined by her relationship with the legacy of the Chozo- her family.
I'd play the game. I'd actually prefer they go with a Female Link only game than a gender choice if they're going to do it at all. Though I'd prefer a Zelda only game over both as I value her character a lot more than most it seems. I have no issues with a female character at all, I greatly wish for there to be more of them in the Zelda series and gaming in general. Link for me though is just a defined character, no different from any other. I don't think of OoT Link or LA Link, I think of Link. Same character, different games. The timeline, history and lore of the series was always so poorly handled that I never put any real stock into it. Nintendo never took it serious until very recently. They came up with whatever they thought worked for that game at that time, which was fine. They made for great games with often touching stories. But there was no big picture or clear direction for the majority of the series, so it was fruitless to me to try and make sense of it all. Link, Zelda and Ganon basically exist outside any individual game. Actors reprising the same roles as themselves in the same retelling of their story. Which is kind of what SS setup with it's ending now that I think about it.
Plus I also grew up playing actual cRPGs. Games where I could actually define my player character through complex combat systems, classes, stats and most importantly copious amounts of dialogue and branching stories and quests. That was always my bar for an avatar. Link has absolutely none of that. He was just a mute, which works well for the series because of the simple fairy tale/adventure style theme it goes for. The series isn't character and dialogue driven, but driven by action and raw emotion.
Had Link always been a girl and people were now asking for a Male option I would be as equally opposed to the idea because I simply don't view him as an avatar of the player. Link is his own character. As I stated in my second linked post turning that into a gender option strips that away, reducing Link back down to a simple player character and not his own. I dislike the idea of changing his gender as much as I would Zelda's or any other fictional character. Others can feel differently and Nintendo can do what they please, they always have. I'm just trying to explain to people how others view characters differently because more than a few here are more than a bit sanctimonious about how others have developed connections with characters that differ from their own. I fully understand that not everyone shares this same viewpoint as me. But not everyone is opposed to female Link because they don't like girls or can't connect with a female character. They simply view Link as a character differently and place greater importance on that aspect of him.
I've been civil in this conversation and I feel the tone of your reply is pretty uncalled for. I don't have a personal issue with you, and I'm neither insulting you or using vulgar language forward you. It would be nice if you could return the same basic courtesy as we're simply having a conversation about a video game.
I have played the first 3 Metroid games to completion and done partial playthoughs of Fusion and Prime and see absolutely nothing as far as characterization. If it's so incredibly subtle you can't even tell it by playing the game and need to read some forum post to see it how can you really argue that it's somehow key to the game?
James Scott
Banned
According to Jonathan Holmes, Nintendo Treehouse was really against the name Linkle so that probably won't be what will be used in Zelda U (hopefully)
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
I think it'd be better without the option and just have some games from now on with a female Link, but you keep saying "Link for me though is just a defined character, no different from any other." But what defines him as a character? What makes 11 different people with different upbringings, family, location, time in history, etc the same character?
Otakumegane
Member
As for the Metroid games we want our Samus vs the federation story.
They have to pay for trying to breed metroids and all.
They have to pay for trying to breed metroids and all.
Yes and this is why I'm still hoping for a Fusion sequel everytime, it should be interesting.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
You just showed why it's apples and oranges. Thanks!
royox
Member
But all the choices ended being the same conclussion or "choose again".
Yeah, Linkle is an incredibly dumb name. She needs to stay in spin-off land or get a new name when brought to mainline.
This too. Samus exterminated them as a way to clean up for the Chozo's attempt to create a bioweapon, then the Federation tried to co-opt it (maybe like Aurora Units/Mother Brain?). This story needs to move forward.
WAIT! What if we're reading this all wrong. Let's check out word for word what was said:
But what if it's meant to be read as:
So we're not choosing Link's gender, but as Link we can choose between a male or female something, like our horse. OMG WE'VE ALL BEEN PLAYED!
da original rumour said:
But what if it's meant to be read as:
da correct reading said:
So we're not choosing Link's gender, but as Link we can choose between a male or female something, like our horse. OMG WE'VE ALL BEEN PLAYED!
UnemployedVillain
Member
Link isn't a singular character. WHICH game are you referring to? WW Link had a different personality from TP Link who was different from SS Link who was different from Oot/MM Link
A person's backstory influences their motivations which, in the context of a single player game, define who they are and their character. Just because you can't glean Samus' character, her taking advantage of her Chozo blood to become a badass bounty hunter, her personal vendetta against Ridley and the pirates (probably why she can so casually destroy all of them in massive planet scale explosions) from all of that without her emoting or giving monologues doesn't mean it's non-existent. It's probably people who thought she had no "character" that led to Other M where that subtlety was thrown out the window
James Scott
Banned
Yeah, right now (despite having some concerns with the narrative) I'm ok with the idea of a female link as long as they don't shove Koei Tecmo's OC fan character in there.
Don't need KT ruining another staple Nintendo franchise.
Not sure how they'd make the new link noticeably female, though. He's super skinny, androgynous, and with long hair tied in a pony tail.
IIRC she was even given a nickname, "The Hunter" and chased them to their homeworld.
Because it's all superficial trappings for that game. We rarely see any of that in the games themselves to a meaningful degree. It's largely irrelevant to his character in every single one save for WW and Aryll. It doesn't matter one bit that Link is a stable boy in TP or a Blacksmith apprentice in ALBW. That he has an uncle in ALttP and no one in OoT.
It's somewhat like Robin Hood or similar characters. There's a thousand retellings of him and his story, his background and prior occupation and even when exactly it took place. In movies you have Russel Crow, Cary Elwes, Kevin Costner, a animated Fox etc etc. Yet we all know the character and his core characteristics and likely have a similar image of him in our minds despite the multitude of versions and interpretations that can often varying a great deal. But for Link it's often even less diverse and different between each one.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Read what I was responding to. That was my whole point. They were the claiming Link is an established character. I was trying to figure out how that's the case when they all have completely different backstories.
Didn't answer my question. And they aren't retellings. They all take place in different times in the same universe. And unless it's a modern or location changed retelling, Robin Hood stories have the same backstory because it's Robin of Locksly. (Also, I've read retellings with a female robin.)
UnemployedVillain
Member
Oh whoops, guess we're on the same side then. My bad
Zelda and Metroid are both series with blank slate avatar protagonists. If you want to try and delude yourself into thinking one has more value than the other I suppose that's your decision.
I want male and female link to look nearly identical. Maybe minor difference in hip/waist ratio being the only noticeable difference. Same height, hair, physique, everything.
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