VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
But if it is Adnan with the phone, he is with Jay, given the other calls around that are Jay's people. That would place them together around the time that Hae disappeared and when he says he was at school.
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Serial: Season 01 Discussion - This American Life meets True Detective
- Thread starter Malyse
- Start date
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Yep. So I guess it's either a Jay but dial or Adnan with the phone... and whichever actually happened may or may not shed a lot of light on the case.
I guess possibility No. 3 is accidental Jay-Nisha call, and him anonymously chatting her up for a couple of minutes... but I suspect she'd remember that.
Ok, and there is no trace of him being concerned that night or telling anyone else about this at all? Say he tells his parents, then gets on the phone with some friends in common, that leaves a trail. Kind of odd for Adnan to be calling up friends and acquaintances asking about what's going on with Hae and this detective while he's presumably burying the body. But, instead the detective calls him and that doesn't ripple out? He just sits on this until whenever? Doesn't go home, doesn't use his phone(I've heard something to the effect of that one call to a girl being the only on from Adnan's world that night).
By itself, it's not so much except terrible luck for not having an alibi and innuendo. But it's not out there by itself.
My only issue with that is it's accusing the detectives of something seemingly flagrantly unethical. That, or incompetence at their job for just letting details of the case pertaining to the witness slip to said witness. Anyway, what you point out is worth considering.
About what camp everyone is in and all that, let me phrase the question the way I sort of answered it in my first post: Does anyone believe Adnan's story entirely? He's innocent, entirely ignorant of the events on that day related to Hae and what those 3 premises mean as it pertains to Jay?
RustyNails
Member
But how will you kill hitler? better men tried and failed (project valkyrie).
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
Well, I'll say that I think he's either completely innocent or completely guilty. I don't think he could "know something" about Hae's death or be "involved" without actually killing her himself, nor do I think it's likely he's been covering something else up that he had the bad luck to be doing the same day his ex-girlfriend was murdered.
Also, I know this is completely subjective but one of the many things that rang false about Jay's testimony to me was his recollection of the things Adnan said--"That bitch is dead" "I killed that bitch" etc. It was, like... bad writing. Maybe it's just sketchy paraphrasing or recall but it also sounds to me like something made up by someone who is bad at making up conversations.
turnbuckle
Member
I'm calling bull.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/False-Confessions.php
There's also a much higher rate of false confessions for minorities.
There's also a much higher rate of false confessions by teenagers (I can't say for certain how old Adnan was at the time of the murder...conflicting information there)
There's a TAL that discusses the topic of false confessions.
This American Life - Confessions
There's certainly more evidence to suggest why a person would provide a false confession in a plea deal than there is evidence to charge Adnan with murder.
I don't know what to believe regarding the case, but I'm sure it's much easier to say we wouldn't given a false confession when we're unlikely to have to make that deal in the first place. If lies are put together to put you in prison, sometimes your best defense is to lie about your guilt to mitigate the damage.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
That doesn't change the point that it's suspicious. You can come at me with all of that (i heard that TAL years ago, been listening to them for almost a decade now) but Adnan isn't uneducated or a simpleton and he has stood his ground for years in regards to the details related to his case. This isn't a case of the state being abusive to him or attempting to coerce something from him that wasn't true; he wanted that plea deal, and he wanted it enough that he asked about it on more than one occasion.
You can argue that his lawyer was not handling his case well given the issues brought up about her dealings during that time and up until her death, sure, but personally I wouldn't ever EVER accept being falsely labelled a murderer. It would greatly shame me and my friends and loved ones, it would forever change how everyone i care for treated me, and it would be torturous to live the rest of my life with that terrible stigma associated with me. I'd rather live my life behind bars for the rest of my existence than accept that.
Adnan pretty much said he thought the same way as you before going through the system. Now he tells people coming in to just take the deal. I don't think it's something you can really speak on until you're in that situation. I honestly don't know if the shame of taking a deal is worse than being in jail until my final breath leaves my body.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
Yeah, and i think that's a weak excuse. It's not a good look if you're trying to plea out of something you're 100% certain you have nothing to do with, and approaching the prosecution with the idea of a plea bargain only serves to reaffirm the prosecution in regards to whether they have the right person or not. Because, really, if the prosecution had any doubts about how solid their case was before that then they certainly would feel much better about it if the defendant's lawyer is attempting to initiate plea bargain discussions and not vice versa, no?
From what i've read and heard through Serial i still stand by the notion that they didn't have enough credible evidence to lock Adnan up. But with that said, i still think that the plea deal is the thing that most makes me consider him the possible murderer out of all of the things mentioned.
turnbuckle
Member
If he didn't do it and he wasn't offered a plea, if he was being honest about his story then it'd make perfect sense for him to stand his ground in regards to the details.
This is a case where the prosecution offered their key witness an attorney and a plea deal that kept him out of prison for allegedly aiding to hide a murder victim. Coercion isn't limited to an interrogation room. The act of being accused while the prosecution is giving a sweetheart deal to the person who's inconsistent (at best) testimony was the lynchpin for their case would be pretty good motivation for Adnan to look for a plea deal himself.
Now you're just regurgitating what you feel you would do in a situation you'll hopefully never find yourself in. You don't have to be a simpleton or be guilty to ask for a plea. Hell, the prosecution likely knew their case was shit. If Adnan was innoncent, all of Jay's testimony would be ridiculous to him. Do we know exactly what Adnan was considering when he asked Guitierrez about a plea? Perhaps, like Jay, he would plea to having some involvement while not actually pleading guilt for murder.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
And how does that change what i said? Adnan approach the prosecution with a plea deal, not the other way around. If the prosecution thought they had a weak case (i still think they did but evidently they didn't) and they approached Adnan with a plea deal then that's a different situation entirely. Jay getting a deal was really suspect, sure, but that has 0 bearing on Adnan's choice to request one himself. He sought to plea deal his way out of this situation which was going to have him labeled a murderer for the rest of his life. Again, there's nothing on this earth that would get me to shake hands and sign a dotted line saying that i was some sort of killer when i knew that i wasn't. I guess Adnan is a different type of person who is more willing to do that.
If the prosecution was going to negotiate, it would've been to a lesser murder charge. Because otherwise, what, the prosecution would let 2 people plea their way out of murder and have 0 people culpable for Hae's death? How would that even make a lick of sense? And again, i don't think he should be in jail but there's no 2 ways about it, if he was interested in a plea deal he knew he was going to get a lesser murder charge because that's how that works and he was ok with that. How is that not somewhat suspicious, regardless of his reasoning for it?
biggersmaller
Banned
With a time machine? It would be pretty easy as I wouldn't have to wait until he was in power and the war started.
RustyNails
Member
Firstly, Rabia said Adnan did not pled to anything and it's a clerical error:
Rabia said:
Also, If you were given a choice to sign a dotted line to say you murdered person X, with a chance to get out of prison in 10 years as opposed to plead not guilty, but a surefire chance of never getting out of prison, what will you do, especially if your lawyer tells you there is no other way? It's not that he killed Hae so he was requesting a plea bargain. It's because his case was mismanaged, and there was no way out for him. It was a resigned failure. Prosecution's case was solid, because of the way they presented facts and connected the dots, without looking at other facts and if Asia's testimony is true, they created dots to connect. Of course it was solid.
Ah, didn't think of that.
Education: some high-school
Buttonbasher
Member
Their feed only posts the most recent episode, and replaces it each week. Back episodes are available through the This American Life app or website though.
turnbuckle
Member
Yup. I believe there was a time years ago when they'd have more old episodes available. Now it's just the most current on Itunes with the older ones available to stream (or download for maybe a buck an episode)
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
But didn't Sarah ask him about the plea deal and he said something to the effect that yes, he requested the plea deal? I might be misremembering that detail but i remember how disappointed Sarah sounded at the revelation that he asked for one.
And if i knew i was innocent and my laywer was trying to get me to plea bargain my way into becoming a murderer i'd be pretty upset about that. There's just no way i'll take that because as i said earlier, i'd have to live with all of my family and friends now considering me a murderer. That's a different type of hell to live through and not something i would ever accept. How would i look my parents in the eyes knowing that they think i killed someone, that i was a murderer?
no plea deal is worth that.
What i was getting at with that is that Adnan isn't a person with a low IQ that was being coerced or manipulated by the state and that this is a grand travesty. By all accounts, he was an intelligent teenager and had some understanding about the consequences of something like requesting a plea deal. And there's no plea deal the prosecution was going to agree to that didn't end with him taking some sort of murder charge, he knew that. I stated already why this, to me, is suspect. And, again, i do so with the acknowledgment that the state's case is flimsy and that there wasn't enough there to put him behind bars because there's plenty of reasonable doubt to go around. But that plea deal stuff sticks out like a sore thumb to me.
turnbuckle
Member
The plea deal is with the courts. It doesn't mean everyone will see you as actually being guilty.
I mean... I get what you're saying. But if wanting a plea automatically makes a person look guilty to everyone (including your parents) then why are there so many people in Adnan's family and social circle claiming that there's no way he's guilty? According to you, he was interested in a plea, right? By your logic Adnan screwed himself both ways - He didn't get a reduce sentence and he'll never be able to look upon his parents again. But that's not the case.
No need to let self righteousness get in the way of logic and reason.
From what I'm reading Adnan didn't ask for a plea deal. He asked about his options.
https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2ob30e/is_no_one_else_shocked_adnan_asked_for_a_plea_deal/
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
I don't think what i'm saying is completely unreasonable but i appreciate your understanding of my position.
from what i could gather, if appears he requested that a plea deal be looked into twice, once before the first trial and again before the second trial.
now, when the first trial ended I remember that his team came away from it thinking that if it hadn't ended in a mistrial that they would've won the case. So why look into it again if there's a level of confidence that he would've won coming into the second trial? You can argue that he was weighing his options the first time around and ok, sure, that's not unreasonable. But that second time? that one looks a bit fishier given the exit polling done with the first jury and how they felt before the second trial. He already knew his options by then and should've felt better about his chances going into a second trial. I dunno, it's the thing that really nags at me regarding whether Adnan had anything to do with Hae's death or not
there's a pretty decent discussion going on in this reddit thread about the whole plea deal stuff, it's definitely something that has some people doubting Adnan and it's not unreasonable or illogical to do so given the implications of it.
Whilst this was really fascinating, I find that the whole thing about how she essentially tried to hunt down Hae Min Lee's family with private investigators and other sorts of badgering to be really distasteful. Their family member had died and she was coming along digging up old wounds. Saying something like "We have decided to respect their decision" after all that is kinda laughable.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
Freedom what are you doing?
I read Adnan I'd some uneducated idiot and I stopped reading.
1. Adnan was in high school.
2. Adnan was a teenager
3. False confessions aren't only for the uneducated.
4. The Adnan you hear on serial was not as smart as the Adnan in high school.
I don't even know what to say to that post. I literally rolled my eyes.
I read Adnan I'd some uneducated idiot and I stopped reading.
1. Adnan was in high school.
2. Adnan was a teenager
3. False confessions aren't only for the uneducated.
4. The Adnan you hear on serial was not as smart as the Adnan in high school.
I don't even know what to say to that post. I literally rolled my eyes.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
I made a point earlier that the only thing i found truly suspicious about Adnan was the plea deal thing and made points about it. And yea, i know full well that the Adnan on serial is not the same one from the early 00s. Someone else brought up confessions, not even sure what that has to do with his plea deal. I was simply pointing out that he initiated that, that he sought it out more than once, and when he sought it out.
And like i said earlier, even Sarah sounded disappointed about him asking for it. I'm not saying that him asking for a plea deal = him being a murderer, i've said repeatedly that the state's case was flimsy at best and he shouldn't have been locked up due to that. Just that I, me, myself, this person who is typing, i couldn't live with being labeled a murderer regardless of the supposed benefits I would've gained from that compared to the possible consequences of not having that on me. I couldn't, and while Adnan makes some salient points about why he sought that out i still think it's not a good look regardless. The best he could've gotten from a plea deal is a reduced murder charge to something like manslaughter for example. Again, i couldn't live with that if i knew i had nothing to do with it.
TLDR: the plea deal sticks out as bad thing for Adnan, that's my opinion, sorry that some think it's dumb.
RustyNails
Member
You are different from Adnan and everyone else...how old are you? Adnan was a highschool kid without any insight into the "real" world and wisdom. Imagine being in his shoes, or what decisions you would make at that age. He probably didn't even know that such a thing as a plea bargain existed, especially since his luck ended him up with possibly the most incompetent trial lawyer in US.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
it's strange for him not to know what one is and then ask for it not once, but twice, both times before each trial.
And yeah, i remember being 17/18. I did a lot of dumb shit, sure, but i wasn't a fool. I studied and did well in school, dabbled in drinking and other recreational activities, was sexually active, of course i remember how i was then. I remember the stupid, dangerous, idiot shit i did and the great time i had. And i sure as hell would've been fully committing all of my attention when someone talked about plea deals and what they were if i was in Adnan's shoes. And he seemed to have done that, too, judging by his reply on the podcast. If i remember correctly, his reasoning for it went something along the lines of "the guys on the inside were all telling me that this is the best thing for me to ask for," which, again, doesn't sit well with me because of the fallout that would come with pleaing down to a lesser murder charge. Again, that's me, that's how i feel about accepting any sort of murder charge at all regardless of the possible benefits from it.
And his lawyer wasn't incompetent. Negligent at times, definitely. Seemingly scheming, possibly. But she was hired by Adnan's family because she was considered one of the best, if not the best, in the area. Yes, she did things that didn't seem to be in his best interests at all but she wasn't the most incompetent lawyer in the history of the world, that's just pure hyperbole. Hell, she almost got him off on the first trial from what i could recall but we all know how that ended. It wasn't an unfortunate bit of luck that landed him Christina Gutierrez, it was her reputation as one of the best around.
But that's not really what i'm arguing, i was speaking more to how i felt that the plea deal was the only real negative i can put on Adnan. and that hasn't really shifted from where i have stood on it.
We are currently on page 33 of that same discussion. I highly recommend going back and reading this thread because new developments have come around after and during the podcast.
| Praxis |
Banned
Just finished this and loved it. I'm a big fan of documentaries, especially about true crime. So having a podcast done in a similar fashion, that I could listen to at work was great.
I haven't read this thread or anything about the podcast, so I'm unaware of any developments outside of the 12 episodes but as much as I'd like to think the guy was innocent I just can't. I think he did do it (or at least was involved). Looking forward to season 2.
I haven't read this thread or anything about the podcast, so I'm unaware of any developments outside of the 12 episodes but as much as I'd like to think the guy was innocent I just can't. I think he did do it (or at least was involved). Looking forward to season 2.
turnbuckle
Member
Not sure if it's been posted before but this is a pretty interesting blog from an attorney who's taken an interest in the case.
http://viewfromll2.com/category/serial-blogging-about-a-podcast/
http://viewfromll2.com/category/serial-blogging-about-a-podcast/
Man, the only thing I hold against Adnan is that.. if he really is innocent and Jay is saying all this shit... then OBVIOUSLY Jay is the guy that did it... but Adnan just doesn't really seem to care, he's just like "Nope, I had nothing to do with it." . If he really had nothing to do with it, and he's hearing Jay say all this shit I would be OUTRAGED and telling everyone this dude is Framing me?? ... its pretty fucking sketchy. For this reason I'm pretty sure Adnan did it..
Yeah, I've posted her blog before. She turns up a lot of interesting questions. I think it's pretty clear where she's coming from, but even with a grain of salt, I think it's tough to dismiss many of the issues she raises -- but likewise, while many of them may be true or quite convincing, I don't think they're going to prove to anyone that Adnan is clearly innocent.
I do think that if Susan Simpson was working Adnan's defense and able to turn up even half of what she's written in her blog, that he'd be walking free right now.
Adnan...
a) had plenty of time to be outraged- it has been 15 years, after all
b) cannot say anything negative about Jay, especially not publicly, for fear of endangering his chances at getting out. anyone close to him would also be very aware of this.
c) he probably didnt think hed get convicted originally, and wanted to avoid complicating the case by bringing one against Jay other than that hes unreliable
d) can't talk about what he actually knows, because at this point he has had to stick with the same case to try and get out
All of the post-series revelations about Jay point to him being way more full of shit than the series lets on. So many sketchy details, like him recounting the testimony he gave twice, that was probably coached anyways. Without Jay there is no case, as much as it looks like Adnan did it.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
Well you're an adult. If you're a kid you probably would think differently.
Im a Manatee
Member
Went to see Sarah Koenig speak at my college. She walked everyone through how she made and researched the episode about leakin park and answered some questions.
The rest was just about how being a female investigative journalist has been tough but worth it and some quips about the importance of fact-checking.
- She didn't like the SNL sketch about serial
- There is no topic for Serial season 2 yet... and it won't be about Jerry Sandusky(was this a rumor?)
The rest was just about how being a female investigative journalist has been tough but worth it and some quips about the importance of fact-checking.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Subbed. I completely missed the zeitgeist associated with the show back in November as I was binging the entire Breaking Bad run, but I binged every episode of Serial in about 3 days earlier this week. Needless to say it's brilliant.
This is without question covered by probably everyone, but here:
1. I feel like the "Adnan has to be the unluckiest guy in the world" bit is really, really hard to dismiss. Without direct evidence, it's just too much for me to not think he did it.
2. Jay was definitely more involved, I think.
3. Even though I think Adnan is guilty, I don't think he should have been found guilty based on SK's presentation of the prosecution's case. (i haven't read the actual court proceedings or anything). This is also the same position I held for the OJ case.
4. I was thinking it while I was listening -- and apparently a lot of people thought the same back in November -- but man I got the impression SK had a thing for him by their conversations. This could be my being a sexist for assuming that. Just sounded like it to me. Was fascinating.
5. I'm sorry I missed the external discussions about race and its impact on the show and the case as it was happening. I don't want to derail the thread since it's probably been covered to death, but I think it's fair to say that SK's inescapable whiteness (and TAL/NPR's brand/tone) absolutely affect the presentation. I also felt like both his race, HL's race, and the minority presence in the area vs. the jury was sidelined in the show for far too long. I understand why, but felt like it played a far larger role than we know.
6. I cannot wait for season 2. I hope she sticks with the same basic formula. Charming inmate, awful crime, very little forensic evidence, etc. Loved it.
7. While I think this case was decided without sufficient evidence to overcome reasonable doubt, I have a feeling there are tons upon tons of cases and convictions just like it.
This is without question covered by probably everyone, but here:
1. I feel like the "Adnan has to be the unluckiest guy in the world" bit is really, really hard to dismiss. Without direct evidence, it's just too much for me to not think he did it.
2. Jay was definitely more involved, I think.
3. Even though I think Adnan is guilty, I don't think he should have been found guilty based on SK's presentation of the prosecution's case. (i haven't read the actual court proceedings or anything). This is also the same position I held for the OJ case.
4. I was thinking it while I was listening -- and apparently a lot of people thought the same back in November -- but man I got the impression SK had a thing for him by their conversations. This could be my being a sexist for assuming that. Just sounded like it to me. Was fascinating.
5. I'm sorry I missed the external discussions about race and its impact on the show and the case as it was happening. I don't want to derail the thread since it's probably been covered to death, but I think it's fair to say that SK's inescapable whiteness (and TAL/NPR's brand/tone) absolutely affect the presentation. I also felt like both his race, HL's race, and the minority presence in the area vs. the jury was sidelined in the show for far too long. I understand why, but felt like it played a far larger role than we know.
6. I cannot wait for season 2. I hope she sticks with the same basic formula. Charming inmate, awful crime, very little forensic evidence, etc. Loved it.
7. While I think this case was decided without sufficient evidence to overcome reasonable doubt, I have a feeling there are tons upon tons of cases and convictions just like it.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Good. It means she has good taste. That SNL piece was terrible.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
What? That SNL piece was dead on.
Nah, it was okay. The Funny or Die parody was killer though.
Why didn't she like the SNL sketch?
I thought it was a more tasteful (albeit less funny) approach than the FunnyOrDie bit, so I presume that's the one she would prefer.
She's admittedly very thin-skinned about it.
To be fair, most innocent people who are found guilty of murder are extremely unlucky.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Which was the SNL one? Where people are pressing her for a final answer, or the Santa Claus one?
Santa Claus
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
That was the one of the two that was actually funny.
manicstreet
Banned
I've listened to the podcast & read lots of info on reddit. I understand that Adnan should not have been convicted with just Jays testimony, however I am convinced that it was Adnan that murdered hae.
That's the only scenario that makes sense. I don't understand how people can think that police deception or a third party person murdering her is more plausible.
From listening to the podcast something seemed off to me Adnan. I honestly believe the theory that his honor was besmirched & was pissed that he was disappointing his parents. I do believe that he is/was very afraid of disappointing his family. That is why he can never admit to guilt. I think he is happy in prison. His family thinks he is not guilty. that's what matters to him.
I believe the reason there are so many inconsistencies in jays story is that he was covering his ass. There are a lot of lies in what he said but its circumstantial. What's the difference if Adnan kilked hae at best buy or at the library? There isn't. Just like when they told nisha they were at the porn store. What are they going to tell nisha, "we are hanging in leakin park".
One thing is for certain, we will have a definitive resolution to this case. It is so big at this point. People are going to come out of the woodwork. Jay may take a lie detector test. Stephanie will have her hand forced and will talk.
Just like the west Memphis three before, the whole truth will come out........eventually.
That's the only scenario that makes sense. I don't understand how people can think that police deception or a third party person murdering her is more plausible.
From listening to the podcast something seemed off to me Adnan. I honestly believe the theory that his honor was besmirched & was pissed that he was disappointing his parents. I do believe that he is/was very afraid of disappointing his family. That is why he can never admit to guilt. I think he is happy in prison. His family thinks he is not guilty. that's what matters to him.
I believe the reason there are so many inconsistencies in jays story is that he was covering his ass. There are a lot of lies in what he said but its circumstantial. What's the difference if Adnan kilked hae at best buy or at the library? There isn't. Just like when they told nisha they were at the porn store. What are they going to tell nisha, "we are hanging in leakin park".
One thing is for certain, we will have a definitive resolution to this case. It is so big at this point. People are going to come out of the woodwork. Jay may take a lie detector test. Stephanie will have her hand forced and will talk.
Just like the west Memphis three before, the whole truth will come out........eventually.
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