Have you ever listened to This American Life? On there they present an interesting story each episode. Serial takes an interesting story and looks at it over the course of multiple episodes. It's s serialized story as opposed to a one off story.
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Serial: Season 01 Discussion - This American Life meets True Detective
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Have you ever listened to This American Life? On there they present an interesting story each episode. Serial takes an interesting story and looks at it over the course of multiple episodes. It's s serialized story as opposed to a one off story.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding was that the jury was in Adnan's favor in his first trial. Basically the same case against him, just a different jury.
Serial has responded to the claims in the recent Intercept interview.
http://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/07/prosecutor-serial-case-goes-record/
The most troubling part of Serial is Koenigs underwhelming efforts to speak with Urick, the states lead prosecutor. He told us that she only emailed him on Dec. 12, less than a week before the podcast concluded, to ask about an allegation that he had badgered a witness against Syed for not making the defendant look creepy enough. That charge was aired on the show. (Urick vociferously denies it.)
We ran his account by Julie Snyder, Serials executive producer. We reached out to Kevin Urick multiple times, at multiple locations, during the winter of 2014, about nine months before the podcast began airing, she said. Urick did not respond to any of those interview requests.
Urick disputed this account, saying the first time he heard from Koenig was in that mid-December email, which was sent through the contact form on his personal website. They did not make multiple attempts to reach me, he said. They never showed up at my office, he said. (Koenig did interview the second prosecutor, Kathleen Murphy. Serial was not allowed to air the interview, but Murphy made a few cameo appearances in audio clips from the original trial.)
http://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/07/prosecutor-serial-case-goes-record/
The most troubling part of Serial is Koenigs underwhelming efforts to speak with Urick, the states lead prosecutor. He told us that she only emailed him on Dec. 12, less than a week before the podcast concluded, to ask about an allegation that he had badgered a witness against Syed for not making the defendant look creepy enough. That charge was aired on the show. (Urick vociferously denies it.)
We ran his account by Julie Snyder, Serials executive producer. We reached out to Kevin Urick multiple times, at multiple locations, during the winter of 2014, about nine months before the podcast began airing, she said. Urick did not respond to any of those interview requests.
Urick disputed this account, saying the first time he heard from Koenig was in that mid-December email, which was sent through the contact form on his personal website. They did not make multiple attempts to reach me, he said. They never showed up at my office, he said. (Koenig did interview the second prosecutor, Kathleen Murphy. Serial was not allowed to air the interview, but Murphy made a few cameo appearances in audio clips from the original trial.)
Serial says that the mistrial occurred near the end of the prosecution side, but there was still some evidence to be presented. Not sure exactly what wasn't presented yet. Even before anything was presented by the defense.
Christoff Yurievich
Member
I think they should edit that to be Winter of 2013 because Winter 2014 is when it aired, not 9 months prior.
brickwalker0
Member
More "he said, she said" it looks like.
I'm probably going to stop following all this until something major happens, which will hit every news website the second it gets out.
I'm probably going to stop following all this until something major happens, which will hit every news website the second it gets out.
I mean it's possible to really think Adnan did it (I am very suspicious and think in reality the odd are quite good he is involved in some way), but I just don't know how people like Maxwell can actually convict based on the evidence. There's the testimony and a few witnesses thinking he acted odd that day. The cellphone data is essentially unusable in any real scientific way, and there is a perfectly plausible reason that other girl thought he heard Adnan say something so strange.
The Jay Testimony IS the case therefore. And given how much reasonable doubt can be inserted into that... is Maxwell really ok to send a potentially innocent person to jail for life, as cruel as anything can be, on the back of one really shitty bit of testimony?
Seems extreme and definitely not the way our justice system should work. I mean they said the jury came back with remarkable speed. What a shit job they did deliberating.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
One juror said Adnan not testifying was a huge problem for them, which they're explicitly instructed not to take into account, so... you know.
Don't forget "Jay wouldn't make that up, I mean he ended up in prison too" "He didn't go to prison" "oh really?"
The jury really don't come across that great.
Yeah that was a very telling part of the show. The juror thought Jay needed to be prosecuted and spent all this time thinking that he was.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
I wanted to tear my ears out at this point
To be fair to Maxwell House, I'm pretty sure he's already said that he doesn't think Adnan should have been convicted.
As for the Jay interview, I think I set out my three possibilities earlier:
1) Jay did it
2) Adnan did it, Jay helped
3) Someone else did it, Jay helped, named Adnan because he's scared of ???
I don't think Jay's interview changes any of those possibilities. Jay tells a good story, but if Adnan didn't do it, how hard is it to take the tale of how he helped some bad guy who scares him bury the body and put Adnan's name into it?
If Jay did it (and I think that's the least likely option), he has even more incentive to cook up this fake story.
As for Urick, it's the biggest bullshit move a public (or former public) figure can do to tell one journalist "Oh, I'm not allowed to talk about that," and then a few weeks later magically have free reign to say whatever the hell he wants.
Also problematic that Jay says now that they buried Hae around midnight and Urick says the cellphone evidence is what makes the case stick (so either one of those "facts" is false, or Adnan really shouldn't be in jail).
(As to where I stand? From earlier in this thread: "I'm really 50-50 on the case... I hope that Adnan did kill Hae, simply because then it's just a headscratcher of "why did he get convicted with such a shaky case?" I think the alternative is pretty terrible." I still feel that way.)
Winter begins in late December, so I suppose it's a matter of perspective.
As for the Jay interview, I think I set out my three possibilities earlier:
1) Jay did it
2) Adnan did it, Jay helped
3) Someone else did it, Jay helped, named Adnan because he's scared of ???
I don't think Jay's interview changes any of those possibilities. Jay tells a good story, but if Adnan didn't do it, how hard is it to take the tale of how he helped some bad guy who scares him bury the body and put Adnan's name into it?
If Jay did it (and I think that's the least likely option), he has even more incentive to cook up this fake story.
As for Urick, it's the biggest bullshit move a public (or former public) figure can do to tell one journalist "Oh, I'm not allowed to talk about that," and then a few weeks later magically have free reign to say whatever the hell he wants.
Also problematic that Jay says now that they buried Hae around midnight and Urick says the cellphone evidence is what makes the case stick (so either one of those "facts" is false, or Adnan really shouldn't be in jail).
(As to where I stand? From earlier in this thread: "I'm really 50-50 on the case... I hope that Adnan did kill Hae, simply because then it's just a headscratcher of "why did he get convicted with such a shaky case?" I think the alternative is pretty terrible." I still feel that way.)
Winter begins in late December, so I suppose it's a matter of perspective.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
"Adnan probably did it, but he shouldn't have been convicted without more evidence, including DNA testing" is the most popular opinion on this case from what I can tell reading around the internet and talking to people about it. Which is saying something because I'm sure 99% of us walked out of the first episode hoping that SK would find that magic piece of evidence to free him.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
Didn't Deirdre Enright, the lawyer from the Innocence Project, think it was a huge mistake not to put him on the stand? It seems there is at least one defense lawyer who disagrees with you (assuming she's being honest and not just attacking Cristina Gutierrez' competence).
RustyNails
Member
I don't know about her, but Alan Dershowitz said no attorney would want that lack of control in a trial. It's why the cops try to get as much out of a person before an attorney shows up and tells the client to stfu.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
I've read of a few other attorneys who also think Adnan should've testified. Prior to this case, I always assumed, like you, that testifying was a terrible thing to do 99% of the time. There probably isn't a hard and fast rule, and a lot of it will probably vary between attornies.
With little physical evidence, the only reason to testify would be to counter what Jay said. Hope the jury believes you more.
With Adnan testifying:
1) He can't remember the day.
2) He received a call from the police (while high) about his ex-gf's disappearance. His story changed in the two times he told a story. Otherwise, he has no story. No alibi.
3) He can selectively remember parts of Jay's testimony such as that girl's house. Other people's details help our memory. They add color and spectrum to a tremendous degree. Adnan, as far as Serial showed us - added none.
4) They broke up three weeks before her disappearance.
5) Two witnesses testify that he asked Hae for a ride that day.
6) From Hae's confessions (via letters to Adnan and her own diary); Adnan was possessive and not accepting her decision.
7) From Adnan in 1999 and from Adnan in 2014 - he wasn't possessive. It was just a breakup, no big deal.
8) The accused said he was treating it as 'no big deal'; the deceased victim said the exact opposite.
There's a billion things to dredge on Adnan. Regardless if they're circumstantial. I feel he would've been torn apart on the stand and Gutierrez made the right decision imo.
1) He can't remember the day.
2) He received a call from the police (while high) about his ex-gf's disappearance. His story changed in the two times he told a story. Otherwise, he has no story. No alibi.
3) He can selectively remember parts of Jay's testimony such as that girl's house. Other people's details help our memory. They add color and spectrum to a tremendous degree. Adnan, as far as Serial showed us - added none.
4) They broke up three weeks before her disappearance.
5) Two witnesses testify that he asked Hae for a ride that day.
6) From Hae's confessions (via letters to Adnan and her own diary); Adnan was possessive and not accepting her decision.
7) From Adnan in 1999 and from Adnan in 2014 - he wasn't possessive. It was just a breakup, no big deal.
8) The accused said he was treating it as 'no big deal'; the deceased victim said the exact opposite.
There's a billion things to dredge on Adnan. Regardless if they're circumstantial. I feel he would've been torn apart on the stand and Gutierrez made the right decision imo.
OK I just finished it. I missed it when it first aired but I have to say, what an amazing show, just as good as sone of the great TAL episodes.
So, my boring opinion is the same as everyone: The case was far from being sufficient to sentence anyone to life in prison. The investigation was not finished.
I can only come up with 3 main possible theories:
1) Adnan did it and Jay helped him. This is the 'easy' solution, the one that makes the most sense. The biggest changing factor is Jay's involvement, he has a very bad memory and either he can't help but make up details (even when doesn't really remember) or he's trying to minimize his involvement and creates a mess of a timeline in the process.
Pros: There is nothing too far fetched about this theory.
Cons: There is no proof, and some inconsistencies. And sure, even if it makes some kind of sense, innoncent until proven guilty.
2) Jay was involved in about the same way but he's covering but somebody else, framing Adnan. Somebody he's afraid of.
Pros: That would explain some things. Like why is he still afraid for himself and his family TODAY. Why was he so afraid of that 'west side hitman' then.
Cons: This is very far fetched, what are the odds? But then: he was a drug dealer in Baltimore, so he had to know some fucked up people. Also that theory makes Adnan really unlucky. But then again: A lot of murder cases end up being about very very bad luck (some have linked to examples here). Also, yeah is Adnan unlucky because he gave his car to the one that end up being involved on killing his ex-girlfriend, or is it this fact that created a interraction between Jay and Hae that day and/or made Adnan the guy that was so easy to frame?
3) Some Random guy (serial killer or whatever) did it. Jay is pathological liar and a teenager always trying to impress everybody/ always needs to have a story to tell. He had the car of the ex-boyfriend the day a popular girl dispeared. Make up this rumour 'this girl is dead, I know who did it, I saw her in somebody's trunk'. He starts living the lie, like 'i need to get rid of my clothes' in front of his girlfriend (why would he do that with her if hes trying to protect her?). Well, when the body is found, he realizes he's fucked. Given the rumours he has been spreading, the police will get to him, and on top that he's a drug dealer. So, through hours of untaped interrogations he changes his story until he come up with one that satifies the cops. Don't forget he a scared kid in way over his head, the detectives can make him say whatever they want.
Pros: it explains why his own girlfriend of long time NEVER believed him, because the guy was always full of shit. And we can all agree now that the guy is a liar anyway. So why not?
Cons: Again, what are the fucking odds? And also: THE CAR. the fact that he appears to know where it is. But then again: maybe he has heard about it/found it himself/the cops told him of the record and wanted him to point to it because it helped with their case. But yeah I know, this is extremely far fetched.
I realize I didn't think too much about Jay being the killer himself. I don't know why, but of course it is a strong possibility. Probably number 2 after Adnan (for motive reasons).
Sorry for the long post. And for my bad English.
So, my boring opinion is the same as everyone: The case was far from being sufficient to sentence anyone to life in prison. The investigation was not finished.
I can only come up with 3 main possible theories:
1) Adnan did it and Jay helped him. This is the 'easy' solution, the one that makes the most sense. The biggest changing factor is Jay's involvement, he has a very bad memory and either he can't help but make up details (even when doesn't really remember) or he's trying to minimize his involvement and creates a mess of a timeline in the process.
Pros: There is nothing too far fetched about this theory.
Cons: There is no proof, and some inconsistencies. And sure, even if it makes some kind of sense, innoncent until proven guilty.
2) Jay was involved in about the same way but he's covering but somebody else, framing Adnan. Somebody he's afraid of.
Pros: That would explain some things. Like why is he still afraid for himself and his family TODAY. Why was he so afraid of that 'west side hitman' then.
Cons: This is very far fetched, what are the odds? But then: he was a drug dealer in Baltimore, so he had to know some fucked up people. Also that theory makes Adnan really unlucky. But then again: A lot of murder cases end up being about very very bad luck (some have linked to examples here). Also, yeah is Adnan unlucky because he gave his car to the one that end up being involved on killing his ex-girlfriend, or is it this fact that created a interraction between Jay and Hae that day and/or made Adnan the guy that was so easy to frame?
3) Some Random guy (serial killer or whatever) did it. Jay is pathological liar and a teenager always trying to impress everybody/ always needs to have a story to tell. He had the car of the ex-boyfriend the day a popular girl dispeared. Make up this rumour 'this girl is dead, I know who did it, I saw her in somebody's trunk'. He starts living the lie, like 'i need to get rid of my clothes' in front of his girlfriend (why would he do that with her if hes trying to protect her?). Well, when the body is found, he realizes he's fucked. Given the rumours he has been spreading, the police will get to him, and on top that he's a drug dealer. So, through hours of untaped interrogations he changes his story until he come up with one that satifies the cops. Don't forget he a scared kid in way over his head, the detectives can make him say whatever they want.
Pros: it explains why his own girlfriend of long time NEVER believed him, because the guy was always full of shit. And we can all agree now that the guy is a liar anyway. So why not?
Cons: Again, what are the fucking odds? And also: THE CAR. the fact that he appears to know where it is. But then again: maybe he has heard about it/found it himself/the cops told him of the record and wanted him to point to it because it helped with their case. But yeah I know, this is extremely far fetched.
I realize I didn't think too much about Jay being the killer himself. I don't know why, but of course it is a strong possibility. Probably number 2 after Adnan (for motive reasons).
Sorry for the long post. And for my bad English.
Those are, broadly, my thoughts on the possibilities as well. I'm not entirely sold on Jay knowing where the car is being the lynchpin of his involvement, though; it's possible the police knew where it was and egged him on, or it's possible Jay knew its locations through gossip channels; certainly a lot of places, especially when there's distrust of the cops, build up a local knowledge and news network that might not necessarily make its way to the police. It's certainly suggestive, but what I think Serial has done well is make you immensely distrustful of considering facts conclusive.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
Wait, what? What is Jay's motive????
Well, it could be something we don't know. I mean-it's a stretch but he is the only one in the entire thing to DEFINITELY know the details about the murder. Again, the detectives didn't really investigate Jay that much. They just needed someone to fill in the details on the anonymous tip they got.
Jay having a motive seems weak-but then again Adnan's motive is weak too.
I meant that, based on what we know, Jay being the murderer is a strong possibility, but of course Adnan is still suspect number one because he's the only one with a motive (that we know of).
Fantastical
Death Prophet
Adnan's motive is 100x more likely than a mystery Jay motive. He dated Hae and got dumped.
ostrichKing
Member
I can't say 100% if I was on the jury if I would have been able to convict (nor have I finished going through the court documents that are available- it is frustrating how Serial chose to edit certain things out- like the diary entries mentioned earlier in this thread), but the more I learn about the case during the show and after the show, I really think Adnan did it...
Jay I think knew more about it than he leads on and probably was more involved than he said which could explain many of the inconsistencies...
I'm curious from people that are certain Adnan didn't do it...what makes you think so (and I don't mean there isn't enough evidence he did...I'm just curious who else could have done it and why)...seems almost every other conclusion becomes very far fetched and relies on Adnan having remarkably bad luck and selective memory...
Jay I think knew more about it than he leads on and probably was more involved than he said which could explain many of the inconsistencies...
I'm curious from people that are certain Adnan didn't do it...what makes you think so (and I don't mean there isn't enough evidence he did...I'm just curious who else could have done it and why)...seems almost every other conclusion becomes very far fetched and relies on Adnan having remarkably bad luck and selective memory...
There's quite a lot of people that got dumped in their life and never committed murder. It's hardly airtight.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
You could say that about almost any motive. "My wife cheated on me and I didn't kill her, so it's unfair to think that it's motive for someone else." I never said the case against Adnan is airtight, but it's much stronger than the case against Jay considering motive.
I haven't seen a lot of people bring up what I think is the most likely theory: they planned and killed her together
I feel like it solves all the problems I've been having with the case. There is a clearer motive: the breakup and whatever was going on with Stephanie (sounds like Jay was cheating on her and Hae knew?). Instead of this kid who's never been in trouble with the law killing her, we have him and someone with a record. Instead of the kid then calling a guy he kind of knew to tell him about a murder and get him to help him bury her (how crazy does this sound? why would you do this? why would Jay be intimidated into doing this when he should be able to intimidate Adnan), we have them both working together. It explains all the details like lending a car and phone to someone you kinda know, the Nisha call, them hanging out and being seen together by a bunch of people right after.
So then what goes wrong? I dont know who this anonymous call is, maybe someone suspected something or overheard them. The cops home in on Jay, they tell him they have these phone records, they tell him about his criminal record and how easy it would be to convict him so he spills the story, except tries to make himself as little a part of it as he can, which is why the story keep changing (because he's lying! you don't have that many exact details about a traumatic event and then change them because your memory failed you).
Why doesn't Adnan tell the story or implicate Jay? I dont know, but I suspect he thought his best chance was to deny everything. Why isn't he saying anything now? Again, who knows, maybe for his family since it sounds like they still believe in him and are a big part of his life
I feel like it solves all the problems I've been having with the case. There is a clearer motive: the breakup and whatever was going on with Stephanie (sounds like Jay was cheating on her and Hae knew?). Instead of this kid who's never been in trouble with the law killing her, we have him and someone with a record. Instead of the kid then calling a guy he kind of knew to tell him about a murder and get him to help him bury her (how crazy does this sound? why would you do this? why would Jay be intimidated into doing this when he should be able to intimidate Adnan), we have them both working together. It explains all the details like lending a car and phone to someone you kinda know, the Nisha call, them hanging out and being seen together by a bunch of people right after.
So then what goes wrong? I dont know who this anonymous call is, maybe someone suspected something or overheard them. The cops home in on Jay, they tell him they have these phone records, they tell him about his criminal record and how easy it would be to convict him so he spills the story, except tries to make himself as little a part of it as he can, which is why the story keep changing (because he's lying! you don't have that many exact details about a traumatic event and then change them because your memory failed you).
Why doesn't Adnan tell the story or implicate Jay? I dont know, but I suspect he thought his best chance was to deny everything. Why isn't he saying anything now? Again, who knows, maybe for his family since it sounds like they still believe in him and are a big part of his life
BertramCooper
Banned
If this were true I feel like Jay would have a much easier time keeping his story straight.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
I've thought about this to. Him and Jay were in on it (Jay taking a bigger role than just disposing the body), and Adnan is kind of stuck in a place where he can't implicate Jay without exposing that he did it too.
http://time.com/3667080/serial-maryland-appeal-ruling-adnan-syed-innocence-project/
Check back next Tuesday.
Check back next Tuesday.
Jay doesn't seem to care about keeping his story straight. He cares about matching it to whatever new evidence the police and prosecutors were presenting to him. Susan Simpson found a really airtight example of this in her latest post.
Latest evidence that Jay's testimony was coached to fit the cell phone records.
Well, wasn't he high as shit? I would think the combination of being stoned, and the trauma of learning your ex-girlfriend is dead, would do a number on your memory. "The whole day's a blur" and whatnot.
Why is this one point listed as three separate items? :lol In any event, maybe it wasn't a big deal for Adnan (he was already flirting/dating/sleeping with other people) and Hae wanted it to be a big deal for him, because of post-breakup ego reasons. You know, how many people want their ex to feel like their breakup was no big deal?
And you can't dismiss this all as "regardless if they're circumstantial." There's a reason that kind of evidence is compartmentalized as circumstantial to begin with. You can't convict on circumstantial evidence (or at least, you're not supposed to) so handwaving that part seems like glossing over a pretty key element.
exmachina64
Banned
It's a bit confusing, but winter is officially considered to start on December 21 and officially end on March 19. Colloquially, people consider it to run from December-February, but referring to winter of a given year refers to that January-March period.
RustyNails
Member
Well damn.
There was a great moment in the Fresh Air interview where Sarah recalls an interview she had with one of Adnan's classmates. Sarah asked the guy if he had ever spoken to the police at the time, but the guy confidently said no. Then she pulls out the police record of this guy, who moments earlier would have sworn he never spoke to the cops. Memory is a very fickle thing.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/...fends-guilty-verdict-adnan-syed-case-part-ii/
Intercept with Kevin Urick Pt. II.
They completely stripped Natasha Vargas-Cooper from the article, and have the plainest intro ever:
Huge shift in tone, there's no Serial or Koenig shitting at all in this piece.
Intercept with Kevin Urick Pt. II.
They completely stripped Natasha Vargas-Cooper from the article, and have the plainest intro ever:
Huge shift in tone, there's no Serial or Koenig shitting at all in this piece.
unpopularblargh
Member
I read the comments and it seems something happened between the release of the last two parts so the editors had to do major damage control it seems like.
Because there is no proof he is innocent. The argument is about whether Adnan's lawyer asked for a plea deal before the verdict. Adnan claims he would have tried for one, but the prosecutor thinks that the trial was all or nothing for Adnan. They aren't even arguing that his lawyer was bad during the trial.
exmachina64
Banned
I imagine they wish this podcast had never happened.
There is also no proof he is guilty.
I guess if you ignore the whole trial and Jury decision based on hearing a total of 5-10 minutes of the actual case presented by someone else.
I'm curious, what specific evidence you are referring to. Please, go ahead.
Whether you believe him or not, Jay's testimony is evidence:
The cell phone records are also evidence.
It may very well turn out to be inaccurate, but it was presented as evidence and accepted by a Jury that heard the whole case.
So to say there was no evidence is flat out wrong, you just have a problem with what was used.
Aha. Again-this is "evidence" but based on what we know and the fact that this testimony is now discounted by Jay himself-none of this evidence proves a thing. In a court of law, reasonable doubt must be disproven to convict a man. There is nothing you've mentioned that dispels reasonable doubt.
It doesn't matter now as Adnan was tried and convicted. It would take proof of innocence to get him released from jail. Should he have been convicted in the first place based on the evidence presented? Probably not. But again.. now that he's convicted, reasonable doubt won't be enough to release him.
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