Also, I made this thread to keep us from getting too far off track.
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=922954
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=922954
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Serial: Season 01 Discussion - This American Life meets True Detective
- Thread starter Malyse
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OpinionatedCyborg
Member
It isn't spoiler free by your standard.
Wait so, about that Neisha call: She remembers Adnan calling her and putting Jay on the phone, but the prosecutor stopped her from revealing that they were at the porn store Jay worked at, meaning the call didn't happen until weeks after the murder (this is some Edgeworth level BS btw).
So after this guy made him help bury a body Jay is still inviting Adnan over to his work place and chilling with him. You'd think he'd want to spend as little time around him as possible.
And another thing, why did Adnan put Jay on the phone anyway? Maybe I'm just out of touch but why would someone put their friend (sorry, I mean "casual acquaintance") on the phone with some girl they're seeing casually? That seems off to me.
I still have no idea what's going on but I'm starting to lean to Adnan and Jay doing it together for some reason.
So after this guy made him help bury a body Jay is still inviting Adnan over to his work place and chilling with him. You'd think he'd want to spend as little time around him as possible.
And another thing, why did Adnan put Jay on the phone anyway? Maybe I'm just out of touch but why would someone put their friend (sorry, I mean "casual acquaintance") on the phone with some girl they're seeing casually? That seems off to me.
I still have no idea what's going on but I'm starting to lean to Adnan and Jay doing it together for some reason.
I think it's odd that you're asking for a Dickensian narrative here - to me what makes it interesting is that it isn't. What makes it interesting is that it's just another mundane case, but one we go deep into -- because. Because a regular old murder with someone in jail who might have done it and people connected to him or her or it who don't understand who or why or when tells us a lot about murder cases in general, about murder suspects and about police work and things we don't know for sure. It's interesting in and of itself and would not be half as interesting, in this case, as a piece of reporting, if it was pitched on a higher concept level. Perhaps it's not as interesting if your knowledge of 'everyday' murder cases is already intimate. For most people it's not, because a piece of journalism like this is rare and presentation of "mundane" real life crime minutia rarely this gripping. So it tells a lot of people valuable stories they haven't heard before.
I'm not looking for a Dickensian narrative so much as I'm looking for an angle, any angle. What she's made is totally toothless. It just seems like she's missing a lot of opportunities to contextualize any of the mundane things that happen. It doesn't even need a single thesis statement so much as it needs to actually address the questions it raises. How many segments have ended with "hmm I don't know what to make of that"? If this line of inquiry told you nothing, why are you sharing it with us?
I dunno. Capote hit the scene more than fifty years old, right? There's no way you make a true crime story and don't get compared to that, and Serial just totally deflates in the face of In Cold Blood.
I want to be on Adnan's side. My wife's family lives in the discussed area. My wife's cousins knew adnan's family growing up. Have been over. Feel horrible for what his family has gone through and lives through still. His mother and father especially. I feel life through my in laws I know them. Very typical Pakistani family.
I'm hooked. I want to believe him.
But two questions nag me which go against Adnan:
1. We learn him and Hae are still in touch and friendly. She calls him when she has an accident. He and his friends also insist he was a playa, party animal, who had 2-3 girls he was talking too or seeing at once. So if he isn't depressed and furious with her, why would he not once page her or call her after its confirmed she is missing?
Her friends all call and try. Adnan says be was in constant touch with the friends an getting information first hand. But not one call?
I get not calling when the cops called cause he might be thinking she is just out with her boyfriend and will be in trouble with her parents. But he called her 3 times the night before and never again. Doesn't add up.
2. The Nisha call. If he is at school at track practice, who calls Nisha? Jay? Why would he? Wouldn't she remember speaking only to Jay?
One thing that does go in his favor in my mind is I just don't imagine him and Jay (if they were in this together) killing her in broad day light and then instead of being in a rush to bury her, drive around town randomly hitting up friends houses and smoking pot. Wouldn't anyone try to hide or get rid of the evidence ?
They so casually spend the evening taking huge risks at every turn, especially Adnan since it was Ramadan.
And how do we know she was killed that day at all? Is the coroner's report or autopsy revealing anything that says she was killed that day that tike for sure? Is that all on what Jay says?
Personally right now I do think Adnan was involved somehow but it might be drug related (the 3rd party) and he is far more afraid of retaliation (to his fam?). You'd think he would be screaming and crying with his own theories and proofs
All he does is poke holes. Almost like he wants to be freed but only if he gets off on incompetent police work and prosecution.
I'm hooked. I want to believe him.
But two questions nag me which go against Adnan:
1. We learn him and Hae are still in touch and friendly. She calls him when she has an accident. He and his friends also insist he was a playa, party animal, who had 2-3 girls he was talking too or seeing at once. So if he isn't depressed and furious with her, why would he not once page her or call her after its confirmed she is missing?
Her friends all call and try. Adnan says be was in constant touch with the friends an getting information first hand. But not one call?
I get not calling when the cops called cause he might be thinking she is just out with her boyfriend and will be in trouble with her parents. But he called her 3 times the night before and never again. Doesn't add up.
2. The Nisha call. If he is at school at track practice, who calls Nisha? Jay? Why would he? Wouldn't she remember speaking only to Jay?
One thing that does go in his favor in my mind is I just don't imagine him and Jay (if they were in this together) killing her in broad day light and then instead of being in a rush to bury her, drive around town randomly hitting up friends houses and smoking pot. Wouldn't anyone try to hide or get rid of the evidence ?
They so casually spend the evening taking huge risks at every turn, especially Adnan since it was Ramadan.
And how do we know she was killed that day at all? Is the coroner's report or autopsy revealing anything that says she was killed that day that tike for sure? Is that all on what Jay says?
Personally right now I do think Adnan was involved somehow but it might be drug related (the 3rd party) and he is far more afraid of retaliation (to his fam?). You'd think he would be screaming and crying with his own theories and proofs
All he does is poke holes. Almost like he wants to be freed but only if he gets off on incompetent police work and prosecution.
Eh... even innocent people lose hope after spending years and years in prison. That fight is exhausting and draining. I don't think it's at all unrealistic for an innocent person to simply be over it after a certain point. Passionately fighting the system and gaining no traction for years would be spiritually crushing. I don't find his somewhat indifference to be a red flag in an of itself.
Love this show, thanks for posting about it.
As for the case, I think Adnan did it but that Jay is more involved than he let on.
The main reason is that who else could it have been? Adnan is the only person with a sort-of motive and it's unclear why Jay would make something like this up when it can very seriously affect him.
Also, as mentioned above the fact that he didn't call her after she was reported missing is very very weird.
As for the case, I think Adnan did it but that Jay is more involved than he let on.
The main reason is that who else could it have been? Adnan is the only person with a sort-of motive and it's unclear why Jay would make something like this up when it can very seriously affect him.
Also, as mentioned above the fact that he didn't call her after she was reported missing is very very weird.
apocalidiot
Banned
chaobreaker
Member
In a stunning twist, I have been following the show from the very beginning but have just caught up to this thread.
I have nothing new to say that hasn't been said I was this thread, but I just went to the official Serial website and found out that Sarah Koenig has a striking resemblance to my sister.
#Jaydidit
I have nothing new to say that hasn't been said I was this thread, but I just went to the official Serial website and found out that Sarah Koenig has a striking resemblance to my sister.
#Jaydidit
Finished episode five on the way to work this morning, going to listen to episode six on the way home.
So far I think Adnan is guilty. The case is mired in confusion and contradiction and it's certainly not clear cut, but I can't see a way in which anyone but Adnan did it. He's very convincing to listen to but I haven't heard a single thing to even slightly prove his innocence, while there's a bunch of things, admittedly weak, circumstantial or slightly off, that suggest he did it. Ok, there's the girl at the library, but she seems to be the only person in the world who remembers this encounter. Not even Adnan does, which is very strange.
One thing that stands out to me is how much information and evidence was overlooked or misinterpreted. Whichever way it would have leant in the case there seems to be so much that wasn't fully explored. Why didn't detectives investigate the route from episode five? The Best Buy phone. If Jay's evidence was the prosecution's key to the case, why did the jury believe a pot-smoking guy who changed his story half a dozen times? Surely that discredits him completely, even if the truth seeps out occasionally.
So far I think Adnan is guilty. The case is mired in confusion and contradiction and it's certainly not clear cut, but I can't see a way in which anyone but Adnan did it. He's very convincing to listen to but I haven't heard a single thing to even slightly prove his innocence, while there's a bunch of things, admittedly weak, circumstantial or slightly off, that suggest he did it. Ok, there's the girl at the library, but she seems to be the only person in the world who remembers this encounter. Not even Adnan does, which is very strange.
One thing that stands out to me is how much information and evidence was overlooked or misinterpreted. Whichever way it would have leant in the case there seems to be so much that wasn't fully explored. Why didn't detectives investigate the route from episode five? The Best Buy phone. If Jay's evidence was the prosecution's key to the case, why did the jury believe a pot-smoking guy who changed his story half a dozen times? Surely that discredits him completely, even if the truth seeps out occasionally.
Once police have a suspect they think is guilty, they stop investigating the case and looking for new leads. Literally happens all the time.
Again, we need to hear episode seven. Six was sort of intended to make you against Adnan.
Yeah that's stuck in my mind as well. Especially when she questioned him about it and he says he kept in contact with close friends, kind of avoiding answering the question it sounded really bad for his case to me.
Jay is one of the sketchiest dudes I've ever heard of. He has to have taken part in it in some way, it's ridiculous. I want her to speak with Jay directly.
I really hope we get an episode that goes more in depth on this as well. All I remember is her saying that the report stated it had to happen within that amount of time, but with how mishandled so much of the evidence has been I want that to be investigated.
Also just in general, if the guy is innocent, had no part in it, I just don't understand how he's so calm and collected talking about everything with her. This is just my own feeling so it's not backed by anything, but if I knew I was innocent and had no part in something as awful as murdering an ex girlfriend, I'd be pleading like crazy because getting a life sentence as an innocent man is my biggest fear in the world. Always struck me as odd.
edit: I understand he's been in jail for a long time now, so that feeling of giving up may have already come in, but with this new opportunity with so many new ears to the case, I dunno.
Glad I found this thread, this podcast is really incredible.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
That's the most damning thing about Adnan's story in this whole thing. Everything else is super open to interpretation, Jay could have easily internally felt threatened by Adnan enough to keep quiet, etc, etc. I bought Jay's reasoning throughout his testimony episode, for example.
The real nail in the coffin for me is Adnan having little recollection of being Jay's close friend but there being incontrovertible evidence of Jay having Adnan's phone and them using it together at the same time period at the time of the murder (calling Adnan's hookup, IIRC.)
Those two things just don't square. I felt especially in the Jay Testimony episode, every time Sarah tried to paint Jay's version as inscrutable, there was nothing he said I didn't believe could be possible in his own perception.
Still have to listen to this week's episode. Needless to say, I am totally loving this podcast.
DAs don't press charges they don't think they can make stick. DAs "literally all the time" force police to keep investigations open or else drop charges. Let's be precise about it. Police thought the case against Adnan was strong, DA thought it was strong, judge thought it was strong, and ultimately a jury thought it was strong.
There's a lot of layers between lazy/incompetent detectives and a criminal conviction. Since exactly zero of Sarah's lines of inquiry have turned up anything particularly valuable (except a possible misrepresentation at trial of one call), the claim that the police investigation was insufficiently thorough is very weak.
chaobreaker
Member
How old was Adnan when he got charged murder? Wasn't he too young to be charged for life?
Certainly tried as an adult.
Finished episodes 1-6 yesterday. Wow. I love how this podcast is produced.
First I want to thank the OP for recommending it in the recommendation thread and linking this one.
One thing that bothers me is how seemingly calm both guys are after allegedly burying a girl they both knew and that one had an intimate relationship with. The report from Kathy about Adnan and Jay's behavior at her apartment is disturbing and abnormal for two young men who just participated in such a horrible act. To me it doesn't sit right. The only one that shows any suspicious behavior is Adnan during that phone call he received and him running out of the apartment. Jay seemed mellow yellow. All smoking out and hanging. I would think that "normal" young men would show some sort of nervousness or something. Their behavior is almost disconnected like that of a psychopath. Go on with usual life after burying a body.
After episode six I am still not sure about Adnan. Jay is definitely suspicious and I believe he had more involvement than what he told the police and testified in court.
Looking forward to episode 7.
First I want to thank the OP for recommending it in the recommendation thread and linking this one.
One thing that bothers me is how seemingly calm both guys are after allegedly burying a girl they both knew and that one had an intimate relationship with. The report from Kathy about Adnan and Jay's behavior at her apartment is disturbing and abnormal for two young men who just participated in such a horrible act. To me it doesn't sit right. The only one that shows any suspicious behavior is Adnan during that phone call he received and him running out of the apartment. Jay seemed mellow yellow. All smoking out and hanging. I would think that "normal" young men would show some sort of nervousness or something. Their behavior is almost disconnected like that of a psychopath. Go on with usual life after burying a body.
After episode six I am still not sure about Adnan. Jay is definitely suspicious and I believe he had more involvement than what he told the police and testified in court.
Looking forward to episode 7.
Spectromixer
Member
Anyone listen to episode 7 yet? Not much in terms of new evidence, but SK has an entire superteam of people investigating with her now. This is pretty exciting.
I appreciated that all the students were saying that there was way too little evidence to convict. The most exciting part of the episode was the teaser for the next one though.
The deal with Jay is going to be a pivotal episode. There is so much shady shit with Jay it's unbelievable.
To me, Jay was definitely directly involved in the killing itself. And if he was, I think that likely means Adnan was as well... but the evidence is not yet enough to convict.
To me, Jay was definitely directly involved in the killing itself. And if he was, I think that likely means Adnan was as well... but the evidence is not yet enough to convict.
I'm not wild about them bringing in this team of investigators. The series was already lacking a narrative voice from the prosecution side. Now, in addition to Adnan himself and Sarah struggling to remain neutral, there is a whole team of people operating from the assumption that he is innocent and trying to prove it.
RepairmanJack
Member
Seriously. I think this episode will likely define the rest of the series. Without more to go on I feel like there is not much they can do in the way of describing just how odd the whole case is. Sooner or later there has to be something for SK to go on herself.
I'm not sure what you mean? It seemed like SK made it pretty obvious that this team will be it's own seperate thing and will have nothing to do with her beyond this point. I took this episode as an answer to all the Lawyer types saying "There just isn't enough evidence" this whole time. Now SK will go back to doing her own thing while that team does their own.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
What are you even talking about? Why should they operate from any other assumption? Innocent until proven guilty is supposed to be the default.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Listening now. Its crazy how excited I am each new episode.
EdibleKnife
Member
Love the turn from True Detective to Phoenix Wright. This show is super exciting. I'm thinking Adnan is innocent as well.
I feel like I'm going to have blue balls for the next week over the end of episode 7 and what we will get in episode 8. I really want to hear Jay's story and how that all plays into this murder.
Having an actual team of legal investigators review the case front to back was probably a good idea, as was keeping her own investigation separate from theirs. Plus, there is a ton of stuff SK missed along the way with her own investigation because while she is skeptical, she also glossed over a lot of details related to the case because she thought the detectives and investigators at the time exhausted most every avenue. We found out this episode they dropped the ball way too often and that happens far more than we'd like to think.
I think we won't be hearing from that team of investigators at any point until the final episode where things wrap up.
Having an actual team of legal investigators review the case front to back was probably a good idea, as was keeping her own investigation separate from theirs. Plus, there is a ton of stuff SK missed along the way with her own investigation because while she is skeptical, she also glossed over a lot of details related to the case because she thought the detectives and investigators at the time exhausted most every avenue. We found out this episode they dropped the ball way too often and that happens far more than we'd like to think.
I think we won't be hearing from that team of investigators at any point until the final episode where things wrap up.
I am talking about the narrative that is presented on the podcast.
We already have Adnan saying "I am innocent."
We have Sarah who is trying to stay neutral, but who wants to think Adnan is innocent because he is a nice guy.
The narrative from the prosecution has been missing in this series. We don't have interviews with Jay. We don't have interviews with the investigators. We don't have interviews with the prosecution's lawyers.
Now we are going to have another group with a goal of proving Adnan is innocent. I am concerned that this will impact the narrative balance of the show to its detriment.
That is the standard for a legal trial of someone who has not been found guilty.
This is not a trial. There already was a trial, and Adnan was found guilty. "Innocent until proven guilty" is no longer relevant. Moreover, if this were a trial, we would have a voice from both the prosecution and the defense.
I am seriously so depressed because there is basically nothing else I can turn to that's even remotely like this at this extensive depth. I just have to wait for next week lol
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
The fact that he was already convicted and has spent years in prison where every interview is conducted isn't enough of a counter balance? And they just did an episode whose stated mission at the top was to "lay out the entire case against Adnan."
I'm not sure what you want from them. Why would Jay or members of the prosecution grant an interview? They have absolutely no incentive to do that. She already said that she tried to interview the detectives and both were uninterested.
Vincent Alexander
Member
I'm so glad forensics was finally brought up. The lack of details about the crime scene findings has driven me crazy. Hopefully the team finds something. Anything.
But that's just the thing. In a trial he should be presumed innocent. If you do that, as you're supposed to, and then look at what we know of the state's case, they don't have enough to PROVE that he did it. At least they didn't pursue enough avenues to prove without a doubt that he did it. Of course they built up a convincing case against him, that's their job, Adnan's side's job isn't to prove he's innocent, but that the case against him isn't correct, and in a lot of places, it isn't (so it seems).
I just caught up too so I don't know what's been discussed and what hasn't.
I understand that. I am just saying that as a listener, I personally think the show will be less interesting the more one-sided it gets because diminishes my trust that the facts I am being presented are balanced. YMMV.
"That's a scanner scanning its little scanner heart out."
Hehe lovely.
Well, he did know she was gone. Everyone knew she was gone. This isn't evidence.
Hehe lovely.
Well, he did know she was gone. Everyone knew she was gone. This isn't evidence.
What I meant was while all her friends were trying to contact her, he was not. Seems weird. I'd try to contact a friend of they were reported missing. Yet he did not, making it look like he knew she was already dead.
The not trying to contact her thing doesn't really sway me. At first it seems like everyone just assumed she went somewhere of her own free will - maybe just took off for a bit. Once it became more it sounded like Adnan said he was with those friends when they were trying to contact her and was in direct contact all the time with the family and other friends. I dunno, I can imagine being with a group and one tries to call and it sort of satisfies that desire to try yourself.
It isn't something that causes me to go either way since I can easily see it both ways. I can see why he wouldn't, and I can see why he would. I can also see how a smart guy like him might call incessantly if he were trying to fool people about his innocence from the beginning.
It isn't something that causes me to go either way since I can easily see it both ways. I can see why he wouldn't, and I can see why he would. I can also see how a smart guy like him might call incessantly if he were trying to fool people about his innocence from the beginning.
I thought they lawyer's insights were interesting. Particularly her saying that her innocent clients typically don't have the answers that she is looking for. I still think Adnan didn't do it.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
I thought Deidre was largely full of shit. Her opinions on determining who tells the truth vs who doesn't, the number of charming sociopaths in the wild, and other aspects of the case held no weight with me. I'm only interested in her team's investigation of the forensic evidence: does it still exist? Can it be analyzed further? Might we find DNA linking the crime to a known criminal, Jay, or Adnan?
Sarah nervously asking Deirdre questions followed by Deidre manically answering using wild speculations (she wasn't completely familiar with the case at this point) were a waste of about 15 minutes.
Sarah nervously asking Deirdre questions followed by Deidre manically answering using wild speculations (she wasn't completely familiar with the case at this point) were a waste of about 15 minutes.
I thought her experience and insight helped put into context some of what we're hearing.
I tend to believe her word and the words of some of her students since:
1. She's been doing this sort of work for decades
2. She teaches law and
3. Her students are studying law
The things Sarah missed or downplayed in previous episodes are highlighted here because she isn't familiar with the nitty gritty bits of doing investigative work for an actual law case and what threads should be followed or not. She's a great investigative journalist, but she's not a lawyer.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
Which things?
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