A Link to the Past
Banned
Well kind of, yeah. Simply the fact that it could theoretically be used for nefarious purposes or misguided purposes by a tiny minority of its userbase is not enough to criticize the idea by itself.
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Shaming Rapists in private Facebook groups
- Thread starter Machina
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Well kind of, yeah. Simply the fact that it could theoretically be used for nefarious purposes or misguided purposes by a tiny minority of its userbase is not enough to criticize the idea by itself.
You CANNOT be so dense to suggest that accusing a man of rape does not cause incredible damage to his life or mental well being. You cannot. To do so downplays how heinous rape itself is. No honest man wants to have that mud stuck to him
Glass Rebel
Member
As has been mentioned several times throughout this thread:
1. false rape accusations are a rarity
2. false rape accusations rarely have an effect on the falsely accused
3. most rapes aren't even reported
I mean, sure, bring up the possibility of innovent people's lives being affected. But ask yourself why this concern is always brought up in threads about rape and why the narrative is always framed around women falsely accusing men.
Gonna need receipts otherwise I will treat this like the fiction it is.
Seductivpancakes
Member
And these are actually women who have been raped, but somoehow the non existent future accused are priority.
I see, thanks.
Wow, that's a fucked up mentality
NeoGAF: We can't allow this because women might be petty enough to lie for whatever reason.
Also NeoGAF: who cares if she lied about 3 black men raping her. She shouldn't go to prison.
Also fucking NeoGAF: Emmitt Till accuser defense force. Nuff said
Some of you guys make me, I swear.
Also NeoGAF: who cares if she lied about 3 black men raping her. She shouldn't go to prison.
Also fucking NeoGAF: Emmitt Till accuser defense force. Nuff said
Some of you guys make me, I swear.
It's been brought up in this instance because the system failed the victim, and instead of pursuing that wrong itself, the victim has chosen to go after the accused directly.
When does it cease being justice and become revenge?
What was the person in the first instance raped by? A ghost?
And since we love our scenarios: If you knew a woman who hung out with your rapist who was not convicted or never went to trial, would you tell her? If you were a woman hanging out with someone who was a rapist even if they weren't convicted, wouldn't you want to know? It works with different genders too.
I guess his point is that there will be also men and women that just say shit about the exes which is not true just to shame them and get back at them like some people in this thread said. I experienced that with a good friend of mine who was accused of hitting his girlfriend (I lived with them) and she tried to hassle his friend circle against him. That was a really shit month till she admitted that she lied.
It's good to have circle where you can discuss something like this. People should support eachother and it's absolutely needed if the legal system in your country fails, but there is the other side where there will be women/men that will abuse these groups and accuse people of doing this just to hamper their reputation and with that you start to seriously destroy a life too. There are always two sides of the coin.
A Link to the Past
Banned
In this same thread we have Machina, who now criticizes people for allegedly downplaying rape while also downplaying police brutality of non-white people in Australia
So I dunno, self reflect, or something
I think there should be some sort of protection for people who are accused of crimes, up until some point in the legal process (like trial date set or they plead), because accusations have some sort of "authority" in terms of the veracity of the claim.
Alternatively, there could be employment laws that don't allow companies to discriminate based on hearsay, prior convictions, or charges that were later dropped.
As for personal reputations, I'm not sure why anyone should care. People have been slagging their exes since well before the Internet, and people will have to make their own judgments on how much weight to put on the accusation of an aggrieved ex on a case by case basis.
Some people will take it seriously and some people will call it sour grapes.
Living the Dream
Member
Innocent until proven guilty. See [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ee-so-a-jury-told-them-to-pay-her-1-million/] for why you should never defame someone even if you believe it to be true.
Is warning other potential victims revenge? How can you warn them without naming?
Audioboxer
Member
People are focusing on private Facebook groups, and at the end of the day if things are kept private then what are you going to do? People say and share lots of things in private all the time.
I think if the social media platform and anyone in law enforcement/legal system/lawyers were going to say anything it would be about this
That's a public accusation and is directed/targeted at the person, not comments within a private Facebook page. Both situations differ from each other.
A lot of this just comes down to 2017+ and a social media generation where vast numbers of people will air their whole personal lives online. Some for nefarious reasons/drama, others because they're crying out for help. A lot of times it's just full on public, and everyone can see it, other times it's private groups. Even with private groups you still have to say to people you're sharing things on a 3rd party service, and be wary that even in a group restricted to a few people, said people still have phones/laptops and what not that other eyes in their lives might end up seeing. The old fashioned way of talking to people face to face still removes a barrier of using a 3rd party service for airing and storing your life.
False accusations and purposeful drama aren't new things, humans have lied and manipulated since we walked the earth. Our law systems are supposed to be there to try and 100% prove guilt before sentencing, but as they're man-made systems they don't always work and yes, victims do get left in positions where aggressors do not see justice. The saying it's better to let 100 criminals go free than to lock up 1 innocent person (or whatever numbers people use) has some merit, but things are never that simple. We have locked up both innocent people, and let off people who you scratch your head at how some high paid lawyer has managed it.
Human beings will be emotional about those facts (upset at perpetrators getting away and upset at innocent people being locked up). Both situations end up ruining lifes, and it's not some competition to say who's life is "more ruined". Injustice is injustice. The legal system isn't supposed to be emotional, but factual and evidence based, but again, it's a man-made system and is operated by man. Therefore, even with the best intentions, emotions end up being involved in court which is unfortunately always going to lead to mistakes.
A tldr here being it's futile to try and tell other human beings they shouldn't feel empathy, but act disenganged/cold/indifferent only dealing with facts and evidence. Instantly, nearly anyone hearing "rape accusation", thinks about themselves being raped/someone in their family who was raped. It's understandable. The answer shouldn't be to tell others to drop the empathy, but if those people care about false accusations then there should be pressure on the system to penalise accordingly when it's proven beyond doubt an accusation is false. I don't think I'd say 1:1 with the penalties for actual rape, but people who tell horrendous lies and take them right to the courts/legal action should at times be more liable for further penalties than they face. On the flipside, those getting off with crimes they did commit is a horrendous failing of the system and of an onus of care we are supposed to have for victims.
I think if the social media platform and anyone in law enforcement/legal system/lawyers were going to say anything it would be about this
That's a public accusation and is directed/targeted at the person, not comments within a private Facebook page. Both situations differ from each other.
A lot of this just comes down to 2017+ and a social media generation where vast numbers of people will air their whole personal lives online. Some for nefarious reasons/drama, others because they're crying out for help. A lot of times it's just full on public, and everyone can see it, other times it's private groups. Even with private groups you still have to say to people you're sharing things on a 3rd party service, and be wary that even in a group restricted to a few people, said people still have phones/laptops and what not that other eyes in their lives might end up seeing. The old fashioned way of talking to people face to face still removes a barrier of using a 3rd party service for airing and storing your life.
False accusations and purposeful drama aren't new things, humans have lied and manipulated since we walked the earth. Our law systems are supposed to be there to try and 100% prove guilt before sentencing, but as they're man-made systems they don't always work and yes, victims do get left in positions where aggressors do not see justice. The saying it's better to let 100 criminals go free than to lock up 1 innocent person (or whatever numbers people use) has some merit, but things are never that simple. We have locked up both innocent people, and let off people who you scratch your head at how some high paid lawyer has managed it.
Human beings will be emotional about those facts (upset at perpetrators getting away and upset at innocent people being locked up). Both situations end up ruining lifes, and it's not some competition to say who's life is "more ruined". Injustice is injustice. The legal system isn't supposed to be emotional, but factual and evidence based, but again, it's a man-made system and is operated by man. Therefore, even with the best intentions, emotions end up being involved in court which is unfortunately always going to lead to mistakes.
A tldr here being it's futile to try and tell other human beings they shouldn't feel empathy, but act disenganged/cold/indifferent only dealing with facts and evidence. Instantly, nearly anyone hearing "rape accusation", thinks about themselves being raped/someone in their family who was raped. It's understandable. The answer shouldn't be to tell others to drop the empathy, but if those people care about false accusations then there should be pressure on the system to penalise accordingly when it's proven beyond doubt an accusation is false. I don't think I'd say 1:1 with the penalties for actual rape, but people who tell horrendous lies and take them right to the courts/legal action should at times be more liable for further penalties than they face. On the flipside, those getting off with crimes they did commit is a horrendous failing of the system and of an onus of care we are supposed to have for victims.
HighResTomato
Member
I have the exact same stance on Man on Man rape accusations. If some one is found guilty by the courts plaster it all over the fucking internet, your local area even put in on milk cartons.
But if not through the courts then no, even if you feel the courts have failed.
Why are you framing women warning others in a society that is uneqipped to deal with rape as wanting "revenge" instead of us looking out for each other's safety in the absence of healthy channels of prevention?
If all three parties are within a close enough circle that they know each other, naming names is easy. What about when the person being informed doesn't know the accused personally? Domino effect is waiting to happen, then suddenly everyone in town is giving you filthy looks.
That's the point: How do you know for certain this is a woman that is truly attempting to look out for you and protect you from a legitimate threat? Unless there is a direct relationship involved like a friendship and you have reason enough to trust them?
benicillin
Banned
So if I'm understanding you correctly, your stance is that unless there was a conviction of guilty in a court of law, a rape victim should just shut up.
Why is that not reasonable? I don't see the point of reforming the justice system so that it leads to more innocent people being wrongfully convicted than before.
The whole way the system works is on the basis that it's better to let guilty people go free than condemn the innocent.
If your brother or son or whoever is raped be sure to tell them "now Billy, be sure to never tell that person's name ever. Even in your private Facebook group. Just because the DA declined to prosecute is no reason to smear their name."
I think you should step back for a second and think more carefully. Your posts are kind of out there. You're not helping your cause. Don't stop posting, but the direction you're going is very shaky.
Agent Gibbs
Member
Support groups are regulated (self of otherwise) and are there to support victims of crime, help them deal with it and help them persue the case is needs be. A Facebook group is just an unregulated message board, you can sign up to an account with just an email and post away about experiences on an internationally accessible website.
Frankly its insulting to genuine support groups.
Look at how social media groups who hunt pedophiles work, they have been instrumental in catching scum, but they have also been open to abuse and have allowed false accusation to occur that have lead to mob justice and death, to the point the Police (in the UK) urge people not to take the law into their own hands.
This is a similar thing going on here that is equally open to abuses such as mob justice and false accusations.
The law is there to protect us, instead of saying the law has failed lets go for vigilante/social justice, how about we demand stricter more through investigations leading to higher conviction rates!
You can't say the odd innocent falsely accused is an acceptable loss if it targets genuine rapists, the reverse of that logic is frequently used to dismiss plenty of other things like for example the death penalty for crimes
Frankly its insulting to genuine support groups.
Look at how social media groups who hunt pedophiles work, they have been instrumental in catching scum, but they have also been open to abuse and have allowed false accusation to occur that have lead to mob justice and death, to the point the Police (in the UK) urge people not to take the law into their own hands.
This is a similar thing going on here that is equally open to abuses such as mob justice and false accusations.
The law is there to protect us, instead of saying the law has failed lets go for vigilante/social justice, how about we demand stricter more through investigations leading to higher conviction rates!
You can't say the odd innocent falsely accused is an acceptable loss if it targets genuine rapists, the reverse of that logic is frequently used to dismiss plenty of other things like for example the death penalty for crimes
If I were to play the Devil's advocate here, I would say that it would be much easier to post false allegations on a Facebook group than risking prison doing it through the justice system. The percentage could potentially become higher. You don't need to show your real face on the internet, it could be trolls using fake profiles to hurt someone they don't like or it could be "4chaners" out to hurt the credibility of the women in the group (especially since they have been in the media now).
Of course, that doesn't mean these women should shut up, just that the internet is a risky place.
Of course, that doesn't mean these women should shut up, just that the internet is a risky place.
Zeyphersan
Banned
Its not devils advocate when thats literally the opinion of the majority of the people in the thread
HighResTomato
Member
No.
Unless some one is convicted as a rapist, thief, murderer you can not call them a rapist, thief, murderer. Well you could that's up you, the person you are spreading the accusations about is also within their right to make their case to the courts.
Rape victims even when not proven should be given all the help they need to get through it if that is even possible.
I just don't think we need a list of men and women on the internet accused of a crime but not gone through trial or conviction.
That's all.
Krauser Kat
Member
You are fighting for the status quo of millions of women being raped being better then innocent men being falsely accused because simply saying to the world "i believe this man raped me" is an equivalent crime as that man holding her down, putting his penis inside of her after she said no. Defiling her. Removing her sexual agency. Using her.
False accused simply never face jail time. Much like actual rapists.
A better analogy for the Trump presidency coming to fruition, I have not seen.
Glass Rebel
Member
You guys are quick to condemn the entire concept of privately organized warning groups but fail to offer any alternatives for these women who have been let down by the justice system and society. There are systems in place to protect the innocently accused and unlike those to protect rape victims, they actually work. Quite frankly, your concerns are as worthless as your posts in this thread.
There are situations where it's not a close circle, but the perpetrator frequents the same spaces. I don't have to know them personally to be able to benefit from knowing that a rapist regularly goes to my bar or game shop or school.
That's something we navigate all the time and it's going to be different for each person. Me? If a woman I barely know tells me about a creepy or violent experience they've had with a guy I barely know, I'm inclined to believe them. At worst, if I don't believe them and they're right, I become a victim. At worst, if I do believe them and they're wrong, I just don't hang out with a guy.
There is no alternative to them. They feel that if you can't get a guilty conviction that you're a liar and you should shut up
You want to talk alternatives, if a woman who claims to have been raped goes to a news or current affairs program and says "This person raped me but the police won't do anything. Can I go on air and shame them myself?", the producers of that program would politely escort you out of the building.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
This is odd from the point of view of a black man, only about 17 percent of women who file rape reports are African American, so rape accusations from women toward black men has largely been white women. This skews my opinion on this subject a bit cause rape accusations towards black men are etched in history. Of course the low rate of rape accusations from black women are a whole nother story involving the black community and law enforcement.
Glass Rebel
Member
Seriously what the fuck are you even talking about.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
Given the track record of Internet vigilantism, it's amazing to me why people don't understand skepticism of practices that will lead inexorably to it. Criticism of that simple relationship has nothing to do with the fact that formal, false rape allegations are rare and that the justice system often fails rape victims: one can acknowledge both of those things and still recognize that this will inevitably be used to target people who did nothing wrong.
I don't know the solution to those problems but I do know that every single Internet vigilantism campaign I've ever seen has targeted innocent people who had nothing to do with whatever the campaign was against.
I don't know the solution to those problems but I do know that every single Internet vigilantism campaign I've ever seen has targeted innocent people who had nothing to do with whatever the campaign was against.
HighResTomato
Member
Psychoward
Banned
No it's really not wrong. If you're raped and the police lie to you that your records are destroyed might as well go scorched earth.
The fact that she's warning everyone about it at all? Are we going to tell people not to watch for wolves anymore just because a boy cried it falsely?
Regardless, why are you once again defaulting to the idea that she's being predatory if we're not 100% certain, when 100% certainty is usually even the burden of proof necessary for actual court convictions?
What? I'm referring to the title which frames the Convo. The idea that it's questionable to shame rapists is dumb. What if they're not rapists? That's a separate question, but you seem to be here solely to center the conversation on people on the receiving end of false rape accusations so sure let's talk about that.
Yeah, that sucks and that's horrible, however it's much less likely than actual rape. And actual rape very often doesn't receive justice due to exactly this stigma... You're not allowed to talk about to, people will defend the rapist and drag you through the mud, etc. It takes a special kind of person to willingly go through all of that just to seek out some vengeance on someone that most likely wouldn't go anywhere anyway due to how the legal system works. It's not something that keeps me up at night, but sure it's a problem. What does piss me off is the multiple women in my life who have been raped, who either tried to seek Justice and failed, or for their own reasons thought it wasn't worth the pain the process for justice would cause them to seek it.
There's not an easy answer, I'm not saying there is, but the answer sure as fuck isn't telling these women who decide to speak up to shut the fuck up for worry over their rapist.
benicillin
Banned
If that boy is a girl, yes.
Then again I'm not even sure if people would take a man seriously if he was accusing another man or woman, so who the fuck knows.
GAF has a problem with discussing rape, I know that much.
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
This will never be abused.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
This thread is infuriating.
Isn't it interesting how just about every woman supports this idea, and the only ones shutting them down are dudes? Yeah...
lmao
On what planet do you live that someone, a stranger even, would suddenly confront an alleged rapist like that? Have you ever interacted with a female human who wasn't your mom? JFC
Isn't it interesting how just about every woman supports this idea, and the only ones shutting them down are dudes? Yeah...
lmao
On what planet do you live that someone, a stranger even, would suddenly confront an alleged rapist like that? Have you ever interacted with a female human who wasn't your mom? JFC
Yeah, I know you want to appeal to their sense of empathy, but it's very hard for some dudes to understand because fear of rape is not something they have lived with their entire life, it's entirely alien to them. (Fear of being falsely accused, apparently, haunts them constantly, apparently...!)
Okay dad
????
You tried to claim his life was ruined yet you failed to provide a single proof or evidence that particular guy did have is life ruined. Why the fuck did you even link to it?
HighResTomato
Member
This is what I don't get.
Are rape tests not done at a hospital? Why would a medical institution allow police to destroy and/or delete medical files?
Glass Rebel
Member
I already posted an article in this thread and it's literally the first google search result for "false rape accusations":
Next time enlighten yourself before you come into a thread spouting nonsense.
That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying I trust a court which operates under a very clearly defined set of rules designed to get as close to the truth as humanly possible much, MUCH more than a random group of individuals on social media who I am not even sure are who they claim to be in the first place.
Because they're either lying or they're just that incompetent, to say nothing of the tens of thousands of rape kits that sit on shelves untested.
Because rape cases are thought of a waste of time.
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