-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Sonic Lost World |OT| Too X-treme for the Galaxy
- Thread starter Dark Schala
- Start date
RobbieNick
Junior Member
It's weird that most of the bad design choices are not in the levels themselves (I haven't come across one I hate yet outside of some of the 3DS ones), but in the implementation of lives, the stupid Circus Atari game to get more critters and shoving Wisps in the game when they are not really needed. I feels like too many fingers in the pie. Too many people sitting down and saying what needs to be added here and here instead of a better focus. A stronger focus could have made this game spectacular instead of just "pretty good".
I think Jim Sterling is right. They need to go down this path again only focus on what works and eliminate what doesn't.
I think Jim Sterling is right. They need to go down this path again only focus on what works and eliminate what doesn't.
I Wanna Be The Guy
U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
The fact you felt the need to mention a stage you can replay to farm for lives just proves the point that the lives system in this game is flawed.
Even something as basic as giving you a life for every 100 rings you collect would have done the game wonders.
I'll agree here. All the stuff flying at me after stages was dumb. "You're out of room because of white wisps!" Wut? "You've unlocked a stealth bomber!" WHAT!? Just lemme play the levels.
Oh yeah, it's definitely broken. They really should give you a life every 100 rings. I'm just saying it really didn't become a problem until the late game.
SporeCrawler
Member
I dont get the critique about lives.
Its the first game in awhile where lives mean something. In many mario games you have so many of them that its not really a nig deal if you die much.( Even with nslu)
Its the first game in awhile where lives mean something. In many mario games you have so many of them that its not really a nig deal if you die much.( Even with nslu)
It's just that they still don't mean much. It makes you restart a level instead of from a checkpoint. You might lose 5 minutes of progress oh no.
Either offer rewards for no Game Overs or make the player restart from the beginning of the game. Game overs equaling restarting a level means nothing.
If the devs can't think of anything interesting to do with lives, they should just get rid of them modern Rayman style.
Hero of Legend
Member
I can help with that!
I found a fantastic trick to earning loads of lives early on, I might even make a thread if warranted.
Nothing personal, but it's this kind of talk that is ruining gaming.
What is the point in having lives if you never run out? Why create an intricate level with secrets and branching paths if you're only going to play it once? How can you call a challenge a challenge if you should be expected to clear it on your first attempt?
Classic games taught us some valuable lessons about risk/reward and skill accumulation in gaming, and if games loose that core, they loose their biggest asset; the same asset that brought people of all ages to consoles. The fact that they require skill and knowledge to beat.
Watch someone with skill play this game on YouTube and it means something. Almost like a skateboarder doing a crazy run, there is something to appreciate there. That is what people used to experience regularly in games, from pacman to mario to sonic to street fighter, games were based on the arcade system of every try having real value, not how long the games were but how much there was to them innately. The value is the experience and it gets reinforced by death and it pushes you to get better and when it's done you've acquired a great deal of skill that you can apply to another game or just your self esteem in general. It's a great feeling, and if games loose that, they will loose their most powerful appeal. Personal empowerment.
RobbieNick
Junior Member
These levels are super long, dying is a pain. This game has some of the best use of lives in a non-Indy game in years. Nothing personal, but it seems one of your screws is on backwards--how can deaths not mean much if you're bothered by dying?
But I'm not bothered by dying in this game?
It's a minor annoyance at most. And not a "Man, I gotta try harder" motivator like in an actual old-school game. But more like a, "Welp, I'll just go run through that level that hands out lives again."
RobbieNick
Junior Member
I know Trocial Coast Zone 1 has a ton of lives.
If you're skilled at hopping on tiny clouds.
Hero of Legend
Member
Always listen to the Honey Nut Cheerios Bee.
Because if you go into the the Honeycomb stage (2nd zone in the 2nd world IIRC), you can find a spot with three lives, only a moment from the checkpoint, if you die afterward, you can repeat over and over again profiting by two lives a piece.
I can make a vid or a screenshot tutorial.
Man, you're breaking Miyamoto's heart. This is the same mechanic every Mario game uses: hard mode is dying and starting over, easy mode is collecting lives at a secret location while loosing time and skill generation and appreciation for level design. It's up to you how you want to approach it, but adult players usually choose the hard path because they understand the implications.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
This doesn't warrant a thread given that it's game-specific. If you'd like to write about (and I know about the bit you're talking about -- ie: accumulate lives, then quit), then I'll put it in the OP if people require it.
Mango The Magician
Banned
I picked this up today, so far I'm enjoying it. I actually like that it has a story, which could hardly be said about Generations, overall it's fun.
That fucking snowball level though!
RobbieNick
Junior Member
I loved that level, but that's just me.
Mango The Magician
Banned
It was fun...till the Gameover screens started popping up, also why is it, that 100 rings don't equal a live any more? That would be helpful.
Almost through the 5th world, so I thought I'd drop some impressions. The game does so much right but it isn't without problems.
The wisps stink, especially the ones with forced touch/motion control.
Boss fights are all over the place in difficulty. That and the encounters throughout a stage feel out of order, namely the boss fights with an environmental gimmick.
The bonus stages are pretty bad. I really think they'd be helped with traditional input but my problem tends to be that I can't see my character, so I just end up constantly failing.
I want to play with my Pro controller.
Otherwise, I'm really enjoying it. Love the music, stage layouts, alternate paths and once you realize that you're supposed to just jog around and not blast everywhere (unless you're going for a fast completion time), it controls well.
Also, I found a great section for extra lives.2-2 right before the boss. There's one of those honeycomb pathways that has 4 lives in a row.
Time to get back to it and kick some dudes.
Are there any other than laser that trys to make you use the touchscreen? Because even with that, you can press R to activate, analog to direct, and A to confirm.
I agree. If you got extra lives per 100 rings, they'd be giving them out like candy, pretty much like many other platform games that are too easy. There's no point to get extra lives, because 4 lives should be enough to beat a world.
If you can't beat a world in 4 lives, then it just means you need practice. That's the whole point. It's there to help increase the difficulty. I know some of you will yell at me for saying this. But I think it works well.
Yeah, I actually quite liked the snowball level. It is damn hard though. But it's hard in a fair sort of way. It plays a lot like Super Monkey Ball.
TheCongressman1
Member
Something that really bothers me about modern Sonic games is the mindset that players shouldn't go backwards. Levels are segmented in a way that if you progress any, you have to keep going. If I want to go back and explore I should be able to. Sure, design it in a way that encourages progression, but don't make that the end all be all, and don't force it. That and also the time limit. Get rid of that. Sonic has never needed a time limit.
About the lives: I don't have a problem with lives being scarce, but not having a reward for 100 rings goes against the point. Since it's all about gathering a few to not die, you don't have any incentive not get hit and collect them. Achievements don't count, that's a cheap copout. There should be a reason directly tied to gameplay.
About the lives: I don't have a problem with lives being scarce, but not having a reward for 100 rings goes against the point. Since it's all about gathering a few to not die, you don't have any incentive not get hit and collect them. Achievements don't count, that's a cheap copout. There should be a reason directly tied to gameplay.
Personally, I'd say Lost World (WiiU version) is the best, most polished 3D Sonic game ever made. I know that a lot of people won't agree with me, but that's my opinion. I honestly haven't had this much fun since first playing Sonic Adventure during the Dreamcast launch. Now, SA has not aged very well, hence why I say that Lost World is better.
In one of the desert levels, the game actually tells you how to use it. I think you probably missed that question mark icon.
FrostuTheNinja
Member
The music note wisp is full touch screen and the rocket wisp is motion aiming. It isn't a disaster or anything, just more of an annoyance.
MiamiWesker
Member
I just tried the first world out, uhh what is this?! My first impressions are not good, Sonic feels totally off and slow (and yes I know all the speed boosts). The levels are just so weirdly designed, its not meant for speed, nor is it good for platforming, its lost in a middle ground of meh. I only have done one 2D level but wow was it bad, everything 2D in Unleashed to Colors to Generations is was way better.
Seems to me like the colors don't fit well in the levels, in Colors they flowed so well, you could pick them up and use them in an instant to quickly get around. Here you get the laser wisp and the game freezes, a message pops up, you have to aim then the game stops and an A button appears for no reason. Kills the flow.
How is there no score rank?!?!?! My mind is blown. Time attack is nice but the best runs are not ones where you simply skip as much as the level as you can but ones where you have to master everything, get the most rings and hold them, hit all the score bonues AND get a great time. This is bullshit. That is by far the best part of all 3D sonics.
I already got my first S rank on the first level, yeah you can get into a nice little speed groove but its nothing like getting an S rank in the last few 3D Sonics.
Still have a long way to go but at first play I do not care for the changes.
Seems to me like the colors don't fit well in the levels, in Colors they flowed so well, you could pick them up and use them in an instant to quickly get around. Here you get the laser wisp and the game freezes, a message pops up, you have to aim then the game stops and an A button appears for no reason. Kills the flow.
How is there no score rank?!?!?! My mind is blown. Time attack is nice but the best runs are not ones where you simply skip as much as the level as you can but ones where you have to master everything, get the most rings and hold them, hit all the score bonues AND get a great time. This is bullshit. That is by far the best part of all 3D sonics.
I already got my first S rank on the first level, yeah you can get into a nice little speed groove but its nothing like getting an S rank in the last few 3D Sonics.
Still have a long way to go but at first play I do not care for the changes.
DeVeAn
Member
Are you fucking kidding me here?! Who on this planet thought playing as a snowball the entire level was a fun thing to do in a video game? Frozen Factory all around is just sad.
YOU LOSE the entire level if you cannot pass the pinball sections. Really? Especially with the broken extra life system. I love Sonic games but, WTF man?! I seriously can't believe Sonic Team. The music is the best part of that world.
There are some fun levels but, man Frozen Factory. Ice worlds are usually my favorites too.
YOU LOSE the entire level if you cannot pass the pinball sections. Really? Especially with the broken extra life system. I love Sonic games but, WTF man?! I seriously can't believe Sonic Team. The music is the best part of that world.
There are some fun levels but, man Frozen Factory. Ice worlds are usually my favorites too.
Dramatic much? I understand the frustration because it's pretty challenging. But it's just like any other level, with checkpoints, lives, etc.
I thought it was pretty fun anyway. But there's only one level like that. Not a fan of Super Monkey Ball, I guess?
there's three lives, and then four in a row sometime later. you can rack up 30 lives rather quickly.
TheCongressman1
Member
The way the pinball areas works is completely different than the way it's always worked: You fall down to the bottom, you go to a different path, that's all. The only reason the pinball gimmick was cool is because it was implemented into the actual level design. You take it and put it into it's own section, it's a minigame. Great, LW needed more of those. I don't get some of the design choices they took...
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Nice little secret: Music note wisp is the only only-touch-wisp AND you never need to use it in the whole game.
DeVeAn
Member
Dude trust me I am the last person to complain about Sonic games, The thing is playing the entire zone as a snowball? Really? I loved the world in Mario Galaxy where you were on top of the rolling ball but, this just doesn't work. The pinball thing is stupid. If anything if you fall out they should make you go back into it not kill you.
I don't think this is challenging for the right reasons at all. Most of the time speed is discouraged because of some gimmick. Even if you turn ever slightly you lose speed. I don't need 100mph at all times but, let me go fast at times. This is mostly an issue in later worlds.
Interesting. I feel completely differently about it. The Snowball works, it's just tricky. You have to aim the ball before you unleash the spin, otherwise you will fly. It just takes some careful understanding, like a platformer. It is a challenging level though. But I feel like it's pretty fair.
To each his own. I didn't like the snowball level in Mario Galaxy. I honestly feel like a lot of people's complaints for Lost World can be applied to other platformers. It's just that people expect Sonic games to always be about running. This game has legit platforming, you just have to be cautious sometimes. Also, falling off the ledge means death in a platformer. It's been the lifeblood of platforming since the very beginning. I do notice that some of the designs aren't consistent, like sometimes if you are doing the bee hive level, running into the wall is an automatic death. Strange. However, you just take note of it and try to work around it.
Also, I enjoyed the pinball. I never game over'd that part, so I didn't find it frustrating. Although, I don't understand how I won, I think it was that I got to a certain score and it continued. That part was definitely a mystery.
Sonic Adventure 1 had some pinball. I wasn't the biggest fan of it, but what can you do. It was better this time around, imo.
i was fine with the snowball (i kinda liked it). the game didn't start killing me with more frequency until the fifth world in general. i think i beat that level in under five tries.
for me the biggest problem with the game is that each level is fucking lengthy. instead of giving us one short level with a well-realized idea, it's a long one with halfbaked design a lot of the time. and there's no rhyme or reason between switching to 2d and 3d a lot of the time- something sonic colors did well, and something sonic generations explained away pretty good.
for me the biggest problem with the game is that each level is fucking lengthy. instead of giving us one short level with a well-realized idea, it's a long one with halfbaked design a lot of the time. and there's no rhyme or reason between switching to 2d and 3d a lot of the time- something sonic colors did well, and something sonic generations explained away pretty good.
Pretty sure you need it in the side scrolling Silent Forest level. I actually died a few times because I didn't time it right, and I was like wtf? But I figured it out. You have to hit the notes otherwise it will fall almost immediately.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
You definitely do not need it there. It's probably completely impossible to get an S-Rank if you use it more than once.
ugh really sucks to hear the levels are lengthy
sonic levels should never be lengthy unless if its like the last stretch of the game or if it's a single act stage (but those should always last at most 6 minutes)
Oh yeah, I guess you can run on those circly vines. I always thought you needed it in that level. Maybe not. Level was legit tricky though, I died a number of times until I figured it out.
Honestly I really don't feel they are that lengthy. The length comes from the more platform intensive parts, which tend to be in the 2D levels, also at parts when you are trying to figure out the next part. there were a few that I felt were pretty long, but a lot of them are pretty short too.
Honestly, I feel like people have all these expectations about what a Sonic game 'should be,' and focus on that and get disappointed instead of playing each game for it's own strengths. Just play the game and see how it feels for yourself. I've been having a blast with it despite any minor nitpicks (and challenge).
TheCongressman1
Member
Exactly what I've been saying, and have said since before the game came out.
Take this game, and cut the fat, then refine. Tada, an amazing Sonic game.
i will eventually play the game, but i am not a fan of any sonic levels lasting very long. they tend to overstay their welcome and drags things out, this was my biggest complaint about 3D sonics such as Sonic Heroes
levels should generally be short and sweet (2-4 minutes, depending where you are in the game)
IdreamofHIME
Member
The switch between 3d and 2d is too jarring, it just feels like you're being pulled out of one game and shoved into another.
The whole feeling over all is schizophrenic. Like it's made by someone who watched a lot of montage videos of Mario Galaxy, but never actually played it.
The whole feeling over all is schizophrenic. Like it's made by someone who watched a lot of montage videos of Mario Galaxy, but never actually played it.
Well yeah, levels get quite a bit longer than 2-4 minutes. I haven't really been keeping count, but I would assume that dying is what makes the levels last a long time.
Either way, they will be a bit longer than the quick levels. There definitely are some quick levels though.
I like them, but I've been looking for a platformer like this that has different elements like speed. May not be to your taste though. But I say it's still worth giving it a shot.
I don't necessarily agree entirely, as I haven't come across anything that hasn't been fun for me. However, I do agree that the game could use a sequel to 'tighten it up' the experience. I think the 3D tube stages are where the game is the best, even though I've been thoroughly enjoying the 2D levels as well. Also I seriously hope that even if this game doesn't get a sequel, that Sega keeps the parkour system and wall hanging. That has seriously eliminated a lot of the frustration in previous Sonics. I feel like in terms of the way Sonic controls, Sega is definitely on the right path.
Whatever Sega does, though, I hope they also add a Chao Garden. That shit needs to come back.
Oh, this is actually not counting deaths by the way, I just meant the actual length of the stages. Levels taking longer to beat due to player error is acceptable (as long as it's the player's fault and not poor game design that cause deaths, looking at you Dimps!). I actually study a lot of game design so I'm pretty well versed in platforming game design
And yeah don't worry, I will give Sonic Lost World a shot. The game looks fun, but it's a shame to hear that it's really apparently flawed. I'll see it for myself though.
TheCongressman1
Member
Yeah, I'm not talking sequel. I'm saying keep the mechanics and refine them.
I also really want to see a Sonic game completely in 3D again. I'm very tired of 2D segments. If they want 2D, make another 2D game and focus on making it play right.
Oh, this is actually not counting deaths by the way, I just meant the actual length of the stages. Levels taking longer to beat due to player error is acceptable (as long as it's the player's fault and not poor game design that cause deaths, looking at you Dimps!). I actually study a lot of game design so I'm pretty well versed in platforming game design
And yeah don't worry, I will give Sonic Lost World a shot. The game looks fun, but it's a shame to hear that it's really apparently flawed. I'll see it for myself though.
Thankfully, I haven't really felt there are that many cheap deaths in this game, although it will surprise you and try to make you die at times. It has been surprising good at least not glitching out and making you fall through the floor or anything like that (in my experience).
It's hard to say how long they are, but I wouldn't say there are any levels that go beyond 5 minutes of play time, if you subract some deaths. Actually, once you understand the levels, you can cut through them pretty fast.
I haven't played some of the later stages yet though, so that may change. I'm at the end of Silent Forest. Not sure how much game is left. May that is where things start to get longer.