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[greenleafcm]

I mean, how people apparently just now are realizing how fucked up and twisted relationship between Cortana/Halsey and John is?

John has always been Halsey's favorite out of all Spartan 2's and I would say she sees him as her son. Sure she looks after all Spartan 2's and doesn't want them to be demonized now after Covenant war, but John has always been her favorite. I think she would do anything just to guarantee John's survival at the end.

Then we have Cortana, AI that is basically perfect copy of Haley's persona and always shown that she really likes John. That "liking" just has evolved over time into what could be said to be love[?] at the end of H4. Joking around, showing a lot care and worry towards John and that infamous "Don't make a girl a promise you can't keep" -line that suggests a lot when it comes to how she sees John.

They also have John showing more emotion towards Cortana than at beginning on franchise. She isn't just AI designed to aid him in combat anymore, they show him as having deeper feelings for AI, for Cortana... for Halsey. Do they want paint picture where player is supposed to feel that John has fallen in love with Cortana, with a woman she is based upon?

That dynamic between three of them is all kinds of weird and twisted when you really think about it and how game developers are dropping all those [not so subtle] hints about feelings between Cortana and John. Did community want deeper emotional connection between the two, or from where it's coming from?

Am I making fanfic here? Not sure, but H3 and H4 weren't subtle about how relationship between John and Cortana evolved.

Oh it's so fucked up beyond belief....

Actually the incestuous undertones of Cortana's interest in the Chief were noted as early as 'The Fall of Reach' - when Cortana makes a comment about the Chief's looks and Halsey is pretty disturbed, noting that Cortana only thinks that because Halsey herself must think that. John notes her likeness and other similarities to Halsey several times in the books, and things like the "Scanned" trailer very clearly put her in the same bracket as where the Chief thinks about mother-figures in his life. Also the book 'Mortal Dictata' openly refers to Cortana as a "stalker" in regards to her relationship with the Chief.

In fact just recently Jen Taylor herself stated that she even sees Cortana as an "alter ego" of Halsey.

The two characters are so intrinsically connected that you cannot get away from the sickness of trying to force Cortana into a romance with the Chief.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

I think he meant DD saggy boobs.

Ahhh. I didn't really care for her appearance either.

 

[khaois]

Oh it's so fucked up beyond belief....

Actually the incestuous undertones of Cortana's interest in the Chief were noted as early as 'The Fall of Reach'. John notes her likeness and other similarities to Halsey several times in the books, and things like the "Scanned" trailer very clearly put her in the same bracket as where the Chief thinks about mother-figures in his life. Also the book 'Mortal Dictata' openly refers to Cortana as a "stalker" in regards to her relationship with the Chief.

In fact just recently Jen Taylor herself stated that she even sees Cortana as an "alter ego" of Halsey.

The two characters are so intrinsically connected that you cannot get away from the sickness of trying to force Cortana into a romance with the Chief.

None of them are blood related so ergo no incestuous undertones, and as I pointed out, John doesn't view Halsey as his mother.

Ahhh. I didn't really care for her appearance either.

I thought 343 did a great job with her appearance. She actually looks like a human woman.

 

[greenleafcm]

None of them are blood related so ergo no incestuous undertones, and as I pointed out, John doesn't view Halsey as his mother.

I thought 343 did a great job with her appearance. She actually looks like a human woman.

Lol. Good job on not actually reading anything I said.

Cortana is a "shadowy reflection" of Halsey - from her looks, to her personality, to her thoughts and preferences. It's weird and uncomfortable, and this has been referenced in canon before. That's all there is to it.

(Also I know you are one of the three or so very boisterous Cortana/Chief fans from tumblr - I've seen your posts before, you're not fooling anyone here.)

 

[Xzilerate1690]

???

The original storyline for CE had Cortana being corrupted and becoming power hungry after being inserted into the terminal on the Halo ring. It was later dropped obviously.

 

[greenleafcm]

The original storyline for CE had Cortana being corrupted and becoming power hungry after being inserted into the terminal on the Halo ring. It was later dropped obviously.

So instead of coming up with a new idea, let's just recycle ones from 15 years ago after a character has gotten narrative closure.

GG 343i.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

I thought 343 did a great job with her appearance. She actually looks like a human woman.

My favorite version of Cortana is H2A.

 

[Trup1aya]

Hmm... I actually like this synopsis if true... AI (inherently binary in nature) attempting to save society from itself already has historical precedence in this universe...

Whether or not the writing will turn this plot into an enjoyable story remains to be seen.

It reminds me of a thought BB had about how conflict would be resolved if AIs were in control of conflicting factions... He decided that they'd all instantly realize how useless it always.

 

[khaois]

My favorite version of Cortana is H2A.

Yeah, she looked great there as well.

 

[greenleafcm]

Hmm... I actually like this synopsis if true... AI (inherently binary in nature) attempting to save society from itself already has historical precedence in this universe...

Whether or not the writing will turn this plot into an enjoyable story remains to be seen.

Just seems like such a strange turn though from other things that are still in play, like the Flood and the Didact. I mean I guess those could still come up later, but...okay let's just have another villain, because why not.

 

[Trup1aya]

Just seems like such a strange turn though from other things that are still in play, like the Flood and the Didact. I mean I guess those could still come up later, but...okay let's just have another villain, because why not.

I dunno, in Halo there has always been a ton of conflicts at play simultaneously...

This synopsis is very general, and likely doesn't reference all of the games plot threads...

 

[FunkyPajamas]

The original storyline for CE had Cortana being corrupted and becoming power hungry after being inserted into the terminal on the Halo ring. It was later dropped obviously.

I remember how in first strike (the book) she felt bloated after consuming all of the information found on Halo, and she had to constantly process/compress the information while doing other things. Then she replicated herself while invading a covenant ships systems and due to the time anomaly she found a corrupted version of herself in the unyielding hierophant (am I remembering this correctly?).

I would have loved for her rampancy to have been explored in H2 and beyond, and then to have some time to actually turn her into a proper villain. This just seems kind of sudden.

 

[greenleafcm]

I dunno, in Halo there has always been a ton of conflicts at play simultaneously...

This synopsis is very general, and likely doesn't reference all of the games plot threads...

Fair point. Maybe some easter eggs in the game will point to a larger game afoot.

...still doesn't change that this is a supremely dumb "twist" though, imo.

 

[NoBL3Z]

I don't believe that's the ENTIRE plot summary for this game. For one, we're missing a lot of crucial bits of information here and questions still need to be answered.

1. Why are Guardians underneath colony worlds?
2. How did Cortana get into the Domain?
3. What is the Guardians true power? (Remember Guardians were destroying planets simply by reawakening)
4. Is this REALLY the greatest threat in the galaxy?
5. Who is the new ally Osiris meets on Genesis?
6. Why is there so much foreshadowing behind Cortana's intentions with the Guardians?
7. Where is Genesis located?
8. Where did all there other AIs pop up from?
9. Does Cortana access the Absolute Records and find out what happened to the Librarian or Iso-Didact?
10. What secrets does the Domain have when Warden Eternal mentioned this to Locke and his team?
11. Where did Cortana find a Cryptum to put Chief in and whose was it?
12. What were Blue Team AND Osiris doing on Genesis when Chief was in a Cryptum?

Also, when 343 released a full trailer for Halo 5 Guardians, did anyone forget they revealed some footage of Blue Team on Genesis? As well as when they were fighting Warden Eternal too?

As much as I want to believe all this, there's way too many little details missing in play here. And like the other poster stated, Halo always have multiple conflicts going on. In the last 3-4 missions, there has to be more going on than what information we were leaked because this synopsis sounds extremely generic and fan fiction to believe.

 

[BossDarkseid]

I don't believe that's the ENTIRE plot summary for this game. For one, we're missing a lot of crucial bits of information here and questions still need to be answered.

1. Why are Guardians underneath colony worlds?
2. How did Cortana get into the Domain?
3. What is the Guardians true power? (Remember Guardians were destroying planets simply by reawakening)
4. Is this REALLY the greatest threat in the galaxy?
5. Who is the new ally Osiris meets on Genesis?
6. Why is there so much foreshadowing behind Cortana's intentions with the Guardians?
7. Where is Genesis located?
8. Where did all there other AIs pop up from?
9. Does Cortana access the Absolute Records and find out what happened to the Librarian or Iso-Didact?
10. What secrets does the Domain have when Warden Eternal mentioned this to Locke and his team?
11. Where did Cortana find a Cryptum to put Chief in and whose was it?
12. What were Blue Team AND Osiris doing on Genesis when Chief was in a Cryptum?

Also, when 343 released a full trailer for Halo 5 Guardians, did anyone forget they revealed some footage of Blue Team on Genesis? As well as when they were fighting Warden Eternal too?

As much as I want to believe all this, there's way too many little details missing in play here. And like the other poster stated, Halo always have multiple conflicts going on. In the last 3-4 missions, there has to be more going on than what information we were leaked because this synopsis sounds extremely generic and fan fiction to believe.

Not to say there aren't answers to those questions but someone supposedly verified the info/"leak"

 

[Trup1aya]

Fair point. Maybe some easter eggs in the game will point to a larger game afoot.

...still doesn't change that this is a supremely dumb "twist" though, imo.

If it turns out to be true, I don't even see it as a twist, more like, an eventuality ...

I'm almost finished with the forerunner trilogy, and we see what happened to mendecant bias after a long chat with a precursor. Cortana first spent time with a gravemind, and is now allegedly hanging out in a collection of precursor knowledge. Why wouldn't she draw similar conclusions?

Also, I and many other suspected the domain would be the cure to rampancy once I heard of it and reading Halsey's journal (which is conspicuously placed in the opening cutscene).

Halsey's all like "if only we had a way for AI to store an unlimited amount of information" and the domain comes along and is exactly that.

 

[NoBL3Z]

Not to say there aren't answers to those questions but someone supposedly verified the info/"leak"

I understand that, but his leaked infor isn't descriptive enough for me to believe all this is going on. I sorta believe the Cortana activating the Guardians. But someone else before this leaked infor stated the Guardians were a failed safe mechanism against the Flood and Didact was corrupted. I find myself believing that over Cortana simply wants to be another Ultron.

 

[Deadly]

12. What were Blue Team AND Osiris doing on Genesis when Chief was in a Cryptum?

A mission description says that Osiris' mission is changed from 'retrieve' to 'rescue'. I assume Blue Team gets there first, gets fucked, and then Osiris to the rescue.

 

[Synner117]

Actually the incestuous undertones of Cortana's interest in the Chief

Nothing incestuous about it. Creepy? YES. Incest? NO.

 

[NoBL3Z]

A mission description says that Osiris' mission is changed from 'retrieve' to 'rescue'. I assume Blue Team gets there first, gets fucked, and then Osiris to the rescue.

I know that but I almost sincerely doubt Warden Eternal is enough to take out Blue Team, and 343 showed footage of them fighting one.

 

[BossDarkseid]

I understand that, but his leaked infor isn't descriptive enough for me to believe all this is going on. I sorta believe the Cortana activating the Guardians. But someone else before this leaked infor stated the Guardians were a failed safe mechanism against the Flood and Didact was corrupted. I find myself believing that over Cortana simply wants to be another Ultron.

Yeah. Me too, tbh. I have overreacted to this a tad but I could find it's all true but...it'd feel supremely weird to have Hunt the Truth and basically most of the expanded universe stuff that's happened since 343 took over...to have little-to-no relevance on Halo 5's core story. It could be kinda cool if the Didact was using a corrupted version of Cortana, or at least...pretending to be, to Lure Chief to some faraway planet where the Didact can trap him and...well that's as far as my headfiction has got, really.

I kinda wanted to get into the Halo books etc but I feel i'll wait till post Halo 5...no disrespect to 343 but before I take the plunge on a lot of books/comics etc I'd like to have an idea of where the franchise is headed with the latest mainline title.

I want dat halo Wars 2 tho.

 

[greenleafcm]

If it turns out to be true, I don't even see it as a twist, more like, an eventuality ...

I'm almost finished with the forerunner trilogy, and we see what happened to mendecant bias after a long chat with a precursor. Cortana first spent time with a gravemind, and is now allegedly hanging out in a collection of precursor knowledge. Why wouldn't she draw similar conclusions?

Also, I and many other suspected the domain would be the cure to rampancy once I heard of it and reading Halsey's journal (which is conspicuously placed in the opening cutscene).

Good points again. I guess I was just hoping for something different than the "history repeats itself" motif.

Well some "cure" it is - if all it does it just make an AI so mad with power it goes crazy anyway for a totally different reason.

 

[NoBL3Z]

Yeah. Me too, tbh. I have overreacted to this a tad but I could find it's all true but...it'd feel supremely weird to have Hunt the Truth and basically most of the expanded universe stuff that's happened since 343 took over...to have little-to-no relevance on Halo 5's core story. It could be kinda cool if the Didact was using a corrupted version of Cortana, or at least...pretending to be, to Lure Chief to some faraway planet where the Didact can trap him and...well that's as far as my headfiction has got, really.

I kinda wanted to get into the Halo books etc but I feel i'll wait till post Halo 5...no disrespect to 343 but before I take the plunge on a lot of books/comics etc I'd like to have an idea of where the franchise is headed with the latest mainline title.

I want dat halo Wars 2 tho.

I would recommend reading the Halo Escalation comics. They're really good afford a bit of foreshadowing about possible events. And part of me still thinks someone is working behind closed doors in Halo 5, in order for Cortana to somehow become cured. I want to believe the Librarian had something to do with this. And one thing that's bothering me. How come the Guardians are blue, yet Warden Eternal looks orange? Something is still amiss.

 

[Orochinagis]

So far the spoiler feels like Cortana turns into Ada Wong, Chief into Leon and Locke is Chris redfield

Maybe in Halo 6 we will discover Halo 5 Cortana is a clone or a residual part of the original from Halo 4 events.

Only a rampant AI would say they are cured.

Damm you, Darth Cortana

 

[NoBL3Z]

So far the spoiler feels like Cortana turns into Ada Wong, Chief into Leon and Locke is Chris redfield

Maybe in Halo 6 we will discover Halo 5 Cortana is a clone or a residual part of the original from Halo 4 events.



Damm you, Darth Cortana

Are there terminals in this game? I NEED to know this beforehand.

 

[greenleafcm]

Nothing incestuous about it. Creepy? YES. Incest? NO.

I suppose you're right, wrong terminology. A better description would be a Jocasta/Oedipus Complex. Still completely unhealthy though. I really, really hope someone at 343i realizes this. It's still not too late to not go that direction with these characters.

 

[NoBL3Z]

I suppose you're right, wrong terminology. A better description would be a Jocasta/Oedipus Complex. Still completely unhealthy though. I really, really hope someone at 343i realizes this. It's still not too late to not go that direction with these characters.

I wouldn't go that far into this. There's still some information missing to actually say 343 is trying to build up a romance between the two.

 

[greenleafcm]

Are there terminals in this game? I NEED to know this beforehand.

No video terminals like in the last game, I think. Instead we have "Intel drops" in the form of audio logs that can be found throughout the game - there's 117 of them (lol).

 

[NoBL3Z]

No video terminals like in the last game, I think. Instead we have "Intel drops" in the form of audio logs that can be found throughout the game - there's 117 of them (lol).

I hope the audio logs provide a lot of backstory of what's going on hopefully. I'm curious to know.

 

[Johndoey]

So far the spoiler feels like Cortana turns into Ada Wong, Chief into Leon and Locke is Chris redfield

Maybe in Halo 6 we will discover Halo 5 Cortana is a clone or a residual part of the original from Halo 4 events.



Damm you, Darth Cortana

So like Leon Chief is a creepy simp that seriously needs to get over a hot lady?

 

[Vire]

Cortana magically curing herself of rampancy through some random deus ex machina and recruiting her fellow AI into her own mustache twirling Machiavellian plans sounds quite possibly the stupidest thing conceivable. Really hope that's not true... Or at the very very least that write up was incredibly poorly described.

 

[sflufan]

No video terminals like in the last game, I think. Instead we have "Intel drops" in the form of audio logs that can be found throughout the game - there's 117 of them (lol).

Oh boy, audio logs! Everyone's FAVORITE method of narrative/lore delivery!

 

[NoBL3Z]

Cortana magically curing herself of rampancy through some random deus ex machina and recruiting her fellow AI into her own mustache twirling Machiavellian plans sounds quite possibly the stupidest thing conceivable. Really hope that's not true... Or at the very very least that write up was incredibly poorly described.

I'm willing to bet on terrible paraphrasing

 

[Trup1aya]

Cortana magically curing herself of rampancy through some random deus ex machina and recruiting her fellow AI into her own mustache twirling Machiavellian plans sounds quite possibly the stupidest thing conceivable. Really hope that's not true... Or at the very very least that write up was incredibly poorly described.

It's not really a deus ex machina at all...

Rampancy is what occurs when AI attempt to deal with the fact that they've acquired more knowledge than they can store. Possible 'cures' for Rampancy were hinted at in Halsey's journals, and involved using theoretical slip space tech to provide that extra storage.

The domain is established in the of the Forerunner Trilogy...

It's not like this is coming out of left field...

 

[Orochinagis]

So like Leon Chief is a creepy simp that seriously needs to get over a hot lady?

Dude was just standing there hopeless without her

and on the OP cutscene he is like that before halsey give him cortana.

 

[dude527]

I wouldn't go that far into this. There's still some information missing to actually say 343 is trying to build up a romance between the two.

Plus let's not forget that Halsey and John are not actually mother and son and that Halsey and Cortana are not the same person.

 

[dude527]

Cortana magically curing herself of rampancy through some random deus ex machina and recruiting her fellow AI into her own mustache twirling Machiavellian plans sounds quite possibly the stupidest thing conceivable. Really hope that's not true... Or at the very very least that write up was incredibly poorly described.

This isn't some deus ex machina - the ingredients for Cortana coming back have been here for a long time. Her assimilation of the complete mass of knowledge about a Halo ring and its ecosystems, her brushes with mental torture from the Gravemind, her genesong and her meeting with the Librarian - all of these have been hinted at as factors that would play into Cortana's survival of her rampancy. Frankly, I was surprised by what happened to her at the end of Halo 4, simply because the Librarian and the Didact both mentioned Cortana as significant, seemingly long-term.

Add the long-dormant but all-powerful Domain into this mix and it's really not hard to believe that Cortana has seemingly "ascended" and is going crazy with power and abducting other AIs.

 

[NoBL3Z]

It's not really a deus ex machina at all...

Rampancy is what occurs when AI attempt to deal with the fact that they've acquired more knowledge than they can store. Possible 'cures' for Rampancy were hinted at in Halsey's journals, and involved using theoretical slip space tech to provide that extra storage.

The domain is established in the of the Forerunner Trilogy...

It's not like this is coming out of left field...

Both that and John mentioned Halsey could fix her in Halo 4

 

[NoBL3Z]

I just realized something. Did everyone forget in one of the missions, Fireteam Osiris finds a NEW ALLY?

 

[Orochinagis]

Both that and John mentioned Halsey could fix her in Halo 4

It would probably a blind shoot since Halsey is out of date about IAs development, also Cortana is a flash clone of Halsey brain thats why her lont term span life.

Yeah. Because the Chief was "totally hopeless" the other 99% of his life were he didn't have an AI and was surrounded by people who relate to and care about him...

*coughBLUETEAMcough*

Also that other scene doesn't really fit anywhere in canon. Thats not how Halsey assigned him Cortana. And there is no point where the Chief, Halsey, and Cortana were all in the same place like that without the other Spartans around him. I'm pretty sure it was just for dramatic effect.

In fact this is exactly why I didn't want a story revolving around Cortana AGAIN. I hate the notion that's been fostered that one AI is somehow the be-all-end-all of the Chief's character. The Chief has many other integral and interesting relationships in his life that can be expanded upon. At this point the whole Cortana thing is really just beating a dead horse.

Thats how 343i is showing their relationship ingame post Bungie. Did blue team have IAs too? of course not

 

[greenleafcm]

Dude was just standing there hopeless without her

and on the OP cutscene he is like that before halsey give him cortana.

Yeah. Because the Chief was "totally hopeless" the other 99% of his life were he didn't have an AI and was surrounded by people who relate to and care about him...

*coughBLUETEAMcough*

Also that other scene doesn't really fit anywhere in canon. Thats not how Halsey assigned him Cortana. And there is no point where the Chief, Halsey, and Cortana were all in the same place like that without the other Spartans around him. I'm pretty sure it was just for dramatic effect.

In fact this is exactly why I didn't want a story revolving around Cortana AGAIN. I hate the notion that's been fostered that one AI is somehow the be-all-end-all of the Chief's character. The Chief has many other integral and interesting relationships in his life that can be expanded upon. At this point the whole Cortana thing is really just beating a dead horse.

 

[NoBL3Z]

Yeah. Because the Chief was "totally hopeless" the other 99% of his life were he didn't have an AI and was surrounded by people who relate to and care about him...

*coughBLUETEAMcough*

Also that other scene doesn't really fit anywhere in canon. Thats not how Halsey assigned him Cortana. And there is no point where the Chief, Halsey, and Cortana were all in the same place like that without the other Spartans around him. I'm pretty sure it was just for dramatic effect.

In fact this is exactly why I didn't want a story revolving around Cortana AGAIN. I hate the notion that's been fostered that one AI is somehow the be-all-end-all of the Chief's character. The Chief has many other integral and interesting relationships in his life that can be expanded upon. At this point the whole Cortana thing is really just beating a dead horse.

Did that leaker of yours tell you who the new Ally is who joins Fireteam Osiris later on in the game?

 

[Tovarisc]

Both that and John mentioned Halsey could fix her in Halo 4

John hoped? that Halsey could fix Cortana, basically trying to give hope to himself and Cortana about her being fixable and not losing her.

 

[Johndoey]

Dude was just standing there hopeless without her

and on the OP cutscene he is like that before halsey give him cortana.

Blue Team needs to get a few drinks in the poor bastard before he starts composing poetry.

 

[khaois]

At this point the whole Cortana thing is really just beating a dead horse.

I have to disagree. The whole Cortana thing is what makes everything so interesting.

 

[greenleafcm]

Plus let's not forget that Halsey and John are not actually mother and son and that Halsey and Cortana are not the same person.

Still doesn't change the fact that everything about Cortana is intrinsically based on Halsey's appearance, preferences, and personality. They're not 100% identical in every way, but it's impossible to completely separate them from each other. As well as how the uncomfortable nature of Cortana's interest in Chief has been touched upon in canon multiple times.

...I honestly can't believe whenever I see people trying to defend this. "Halsey is only like John's adoptive mother, so that makes it okay." Its like an episode of Jerry Springer. XD

 

[Vire]

It's not really a deus ex machina at all...

Rampancy is what occurs when AI attempt to deal with the fact that they've acquired more knowledge than they can store. Possible 'cures' for Rampancy were hinted at in Halsey's journals, and involved using theoretical slip space tech to provide that extra storage.

The domain is established in the of the Forerunner Trilogy...

It's not like this is coming out of left field...

Her behavior though is better classified as her being rampant:

"develops delusions of godlike power," as well as utter contempt for its mentally inferior makers - Bungiepedia

It simply doesn't make much sense to me for Cortana become the villain in her original normal state. If they were going to go that route they should have created some conceit that allowed her to bypass the eventual lifespan of an AI but she remained rampant.Then eventually they could go the cure route of the remapping from Halsey they mentioned in Halo 4.

 

[NoBL3Z]

Still doesn't change the fact that everything about Cortana is intrinsically based on Halsey's appearance, preferences, and personality. They're not 100% identical in every way, but it's impossible to completely separate them from each other. As well as how the uncomfortable nature of Cortana's interest in Chief has been touched upon in canon multiple times.

...I honestly can't believe whenever I see people trying to defend this. "Halsey is only like John's adoptive mother, so that makes it okay." Its like an episode of Jerry Springer. XD

It's still possible for Cortana to bridge off into her own personality. Look at Roland

 

[GrizzNKev]

Still doesn't change the fact that everything about Cortana is intrinsically based on Halsey's appearance, preferences, and personality. They're not 100% identical in every way, but it's impossible to completely separate them from each other. As well as how the uncomfortable nature of Cortana's interest in Chief has been touched upon in canon multiple times.

...I honestly can't believe whenever I see people trying to defend this. "Halsey is only like John's adoptive mother, so that makes it okay." Its like an episode of Jerry Springer. XD

This is my opinion, but,

Halsey isn't, nor is she like John's mom. John and Cortana are not lovers.

chill

 

[greenleafcm]

I have to disagree. The whole Cortana thing is what makes everything so interesting.

Yeah, okay "scaryrobots". You gonna go make another 'cortanafans' blog again, complain about how people have legitimate concerns about the unhealthy psychological implications of a Chief/Cortana romance, only to delete it five minutes later?

Seriously if all you're here to do is troll about how much you want a 50 year old man to screw a hologram he knew for 3 months, you need to bring something better to the argument than this.