You would really willingly kill thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people all for a vague "greater good"? And lock your best friend up for a thousand years when they disagreed? That's pretty intense, man. ;-)
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SPOILER ALERT: Halo 5 (Spoiler) Spoiler Thread of Spoilers Spoiler
- Thread starter Shadow_Lord
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You would really willingly kill thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people all for a vague "greater good"? And lock your best friend up for a thousand years when they disagreed? That's pretty intense, man. ;-)
Poodlestrike
Banned
I don't know what I would do. That's why it's complicated
I mean... megalomania is believing you know better than everyone else how things ought to be when you're wrong, or at least uncertain, but Cortana really is the smartest person in the galaxy right now by a pretty impressive margin.
ClosingADoor
Member
The problem is mostly she goes that way in little to no time. Last time we saw her, she was very attached to humanity and the Master Chief especially - the whole "when you find out who's the machine, you or me" thing. And then suddenly, she is willing to sacrifice millions and oppress billions because that seems better to her.
We didn't see her struggle with any of this. Her mind was made up right away from the players perspective. If we saw her considering her options and coming to this conclusion, it would be a lot better.
There can certainly be a case made that she is right, but the way they presented her coming to this conclusion was very poor, so the player just sees her as crazy.
This seems to be a recurring thing with Halo 4 and 5. The stories themselves are fine and interesting, but the presentation and storytelling leaves a lot to be desired.
So Cortana was word-for-word quoting the Didact towards the end. What's that about? She used the "something something, luminous sun towards which all intelligence blossoms" line from the Didact's speech at the end of Halo 4, and: "The Mantle of Responsibility shelters all. But only the Forerunners Created are its masters."
Is that just supposed to be a parallel to show that Cortana is as crazy as the Didact was?
Is that just supposed to be a parallel to show that Cortana is as crazy as the Didact was?
igordennis
Member
Ummm he just said he didnt know what he would do. Its the same thing as how a person getting instantly billionaire fundamentally changes her. People say "ah i wouldnt do that, i would donate like 500 million to charity blablabla" and thats just not true because you dont know the kind of person you would be after something so extreme happened to you.
ClosingADoor
Member
I'm going for the Didact - is he still around, didn't read the comics, shows are podcast things, only the books - or Forerunner system corrupting her and the Master Chief needing to bring her back in Halo 6 to her former self.
FunkyDealer
Banned
I've read the comics, but my memory isn't entirely clear. I'm pretty sure he dead.
ClosingADoor
Member
They really shouldn't end storylines from the games in comics or books. In the end of Halo 4 he has a speech there, so you think he's alive and then nothing happens with that if you play Halo 5. Kind of annoying.
Captain Zyrain
Member
His fate was not significantly updated from the end of Halo 4 to the end of Escalation Issue #10, expanded on a little bit, but in the end its plausible that it ended up the same way.
His speech at the end of 4 was purposefully vague whether it was in the present or past.
I thought it was assumed that his soul is what the Warden is. Dude sounds kind of like Didact.
I just figured that Warden/Domain/Didact pushed a corrupted remnant of Cortana into having beliefs lined up with their own, hence the marionetting of speech lines.
I just figured that Warden/Domain/Didact pushed a corrupted remnant of Cortana into having beliefs lined up with their own, hence the marionetting of speech lines.
LordOfChaos
Member
Well, I'd hope so. It's called the Reclaimer saga, so the AI rebellion spin off seems more of a tangent.
Finally got around to beating the campaign today. Really disappointed in the continued poor story telling in these games. Chief hasn't been with Fred and Kelly in any of the games; yet here he is, just hanging out with them. Couldn't show or tell how they were reunited? Don't tell me it was in a book. And they were just... there. Just nothing from them with Chief. After all this time. The whole Hunt the Truth in marketing made me expect an entirely different game, too.
I really disliked Cortana being back. It just screamed Marvel Cinematic Universe to me. Look! She's not dead! I didn't care for the cliffhanger ending, either. Gotta finish the fight against Cortana in Halo 6. Cortana's new look looked like 343 wimped out after her Halo 4 design. "Cover that AI's bewbs!" And screw her ever-changing face.
The game started off stronger than it finished. No feeling of exploration once again like the first time you landed on Halo or Silent Cartographer in Halo CE. That has been missing for far too long. Just really no standout levels overall. The last few levels are pretty much crap.
I really disliked Cortana being back. It just screamed Marvel Cinematic Universe to me. Look! She's not dead! I didn't care for the cliffhanger ending, either. Gotta finish the fight against Cortana in Halo 6. Cortana's new look looked like 343 wimped out after her Halo 4 design. "Cover that AI's bewbs!" And screw her ever-changing face.
The game started off stronger than it finished. No feeling of exploration once again like the first time you landed on Halo or Silent Cartographer in Halo CE. That has been missing for far too long. Just really no standout levels overall. The last few levels are pretty much crap.
akidnamededdy
Banned
I think people aren't taking the normally limited lifespan thing into account as far as Cortana's motives go. She even says herself that now that she's effectively immortal she's opened up her thinking in the long-term. Maybe she would've always been like this if she'd had the power and the lifespan to see it through. Maybe all AIs would.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Pretty much exactly the analogy I was thinking of.
Monocle
Member
Good way to put it. Plus, it's even more extreme in Cortana's case, since she's a being of pure thought and her cognitive capabilities were radically expanded. Also, like akidnamededdy mentioned, her limited lifespan was extended indefinitely. Those are two of the most life altering events an AI can experience.
Just look at Halo CE and the effect that infusion of information had on Cortana when she interfaced with Installation 04's systems in the control room. I imagine that was like learning a new knock-knock joke compared to merging with the Domain (or whatever she did).
NullPointer
Member
Halsey would, which is why Cortana would, and Halsey knows this, thus Halo 5.
Monocle
Member
Halsey knows herself well enough to know what Cortana would do. It's conveyed in what she tells Locke when he's heading off to the Battle of Sunaion. Something about acting in the name of the greater good to create the Spartans.
Well, I may be off on this, but I've always felt that being put in that kind of a situation (instantly becoming a billionaire, etc.) is going to reveal someone's true character rather than fundamentally change that person's character.
But honestly, I feel like that still kinda misses the point. We're not talking about someone getting a million dollars and being selfish. We're talking about someone gaining massive amounts of power and suddenly becoming a mass-murdering megalomaniac who wants to control the entire galaxy. I'm sorry, but people don't just drastically change like that without being a bit unhinged in the first place. Especially not Cortana, who always showed a lot of care for the Master Chief and even sadness for the marines that died.
Ok, obviously none of us are galaxy-spanning AIs so who's to say what how we would react in her situation, but this is a story 343 is trying to tell her. If you're going to write a character-focused story that involves one of the main characters suddenly becoming the antagonist, and you want it to impact the audience emotionally, then that character change should make sense. You should be able to understand and at least sympathize, if not necessarily empathize. Cortana's change was like flipping a switch, without any explanation for the she would suddenly go full "ends justify the means".
"You don't know how you would react" is a really weak justification for poor character development, IMO.
So I'm getting the impression that this is all connected to 343's portrayal of Halsey, and therefore leaking into their portrayal of Cortana?
But honestly, I feel like that still kinda misses the point. We're not talking about someone getting a million dollars and being selfish. We're talking about someone gaining massive amounts of power and suddenly becoming a mass-murdering megalomaniac who wants to control the entire galaxy. I'm sorry, but people don't just drastically change like that without being a bit unhinged in the first place. Especially not Cortana, who always showed a lot of care for the Master Chief and even sadness for the marines that died.
Ok, obviously none of us are galaxy-spanning AIs so who's to say what how we would react in her situation, but this is a story 343 is trying to tell her. If you're going to write a character-focused story that involves one of the main characters suddenly becoming the antagonist, and you want it to impact the audience emotionally, then that character change should make sense. You should be able to understand and at least sympathize, if not necessarily empathize. Cortana's change was like flipping a switch, without any explanation for the she would suddenly go full "ends justify the means".
"You don't know how you would react" is a really weak justification for poor character development, IMO.
So I'm getting the impression that this is all connected to 343's portrayal of Halsey, and therefore leaking into their portrayal of Cortana?
LordOfChaos
Member
I hope that's not the main conclusion to the trilogy though. Since then it's Halo 2-3 again.
They hinted at a whole lot of stuff in Halo 4 and surrounding media, and then not much of it was touched on in 5. I can pit that down to the middle story, but I hope the conclusion at least goes back to where things were headed and makes large headroads into that.
As has been discussed I don't think that's really it. She's not trying to be queen of the galaxy to torture the meatbags. She's an AI with near infinite processing power now, and she sees that a small initial sacrifice means eons of peace and trillions of lives saved for the sacrifice of millions.
So really, exactly the basis for the Spartan II program, times a few billion.
NullPointer
Member
Yep, but I agree with your criticism that they had Cortana spin on a dime as far as that character goes.
And as Monocle points out there's a moment in Halo 5 with Halsey and Locke where she speaks of the greater good. She knows.
Another yep. I doubt the Librarian engineered a plan over a thousand generations to put HAL in charge of the known universe. A plan that also included evolving John to a point where he could avoid the Composer's gaze I might add.
Cortana and the Warden seem to agree that the Mantle is for the created, but John was created too, in a way, and they were both there with the Librarian as she spoke of her plans. Its not about either John acting as Reclaimer or Cortana as Ancilla, it'll be about them both.
Cortana was always an AI created by a scientist who cloned and murdered herself to create that AI, in part to aid the troop of child-soldiers she designed to help fight their own friends and families during the outer colonies' civil war with the UNSC.
I'm sorry, but if we're talking about the underlying story in this universe as it's always existed, this isn't something 343 created unless you're illiterate. The dark slant to both Halsey and Cortana has been there since before the first game launched. Want forshadowing? A sudden change in a character's tone? Watch the scene with Cortana in Halo 1 when she interfaces with the Halo's computer systems. And those were a shadow of a sliver of the Domain.
Cortana's justifications for the power grab are supposed to parallel exactly those of the Forerunner ruling class before the Human/Forerunner War.
Not seeing what I'm supposed to be seeing there, I guess.
Is that in one of the books, or something?
Because I'm strictly talking about Cortana as she has been portrayed throughout the games. None of this has been foreshadowed in the games the way that you're describing.
PanopticBlue
Member
Sorry if it was already mentioned in the thread, but did anyone notice that when characters talk in-game, their little portrait appears at the top left so you know who's talking? Well, when Osiris is talking, they show the character's face. But when blue team talks, they show the character's helmet (hiding the face). What is 343 implying with this?
There really isn't much more they could show. By the time Halo 4 happens, the Blue Team is just... around. Doing regular super soldier stuff. They might have gone out for a space beer, but that's about as exciting as this reunion would get.
Save her... from what? There's no coming back from this. The only way she can "redeem" herself is through a heroic sacrifice. Either that, or the story will take them somewhere far from the rest of humanity, where your funny sidekick with a big butt won't be seen as the AI overlord.
psychotron
Member
I want Cortana to be redeemed somehow. I hate thinking she's going to be killed a villain.
Probably that they just don't want to show blue team's face, as in showing chief's is not the norm. Or you know, that whole lack of basic humanity thing they talk about with spartan 2's.
mmm...
Was thinking Thorne would review Spartan Log (because inexpensive), and they'd have Thorne do something quasi-relevant. *cough*
ahem
idk Or maybe deal with insurgents + alien allies.
Double Donut
Member
I really, really hope Cortana isn't defeated by being talked down by Chief. I love where this is going but that would be such a cheesy, cringey conclusion.
"Cortana, pls. For me."
"I'm so sorry John, forgive me" *puts away Guardians*
"Cortana, pls. For me."
"I'm so sorry John, forgive me" *puts away Guardians*
igordennis
Member
Oh definitely, i made that point in isolation but in the end i still agree that Cortana's character in Halo 5 is just bad man. Badly constructed and conveyed with a mediocre deliver and some really odd facial expressions. It didnt gel with me at all. Some people liked it though.
vasametropolis
Member
Campaign and story were absolutely fucking BRUTAL. Can't believe I bought this pile of crap. They should be super ashamed. I even liked Halo 4 when some people didn't. Great character moments at least. A very personal story. This was just soul crushingly awful and the biggest disappointment in a while. My foot was out the door on this series, but I just closed the door behind me. Wow. All that Locke screen time, without a shred of bloody personality. They need to give a firm backhand to their creative/writing team.
Edit: Also, most repetitive gameplay I've seen in quite a while. Staggering stuff, and apparently not a shred of design talent at the studio. Or they locked them in the basement.
Edit: Also, most repetitive gameplay I've seen in quite a while. Staggering stuff, and apparently not a shred of design talent at the studio. Or they locked them in the basement.
Be honest, how many of you peeps though we were gonna get a final boss fight with a Guardian or Cortana or a fusion of both at the end?
The timing of Exuberant's control of Genesis was kinda lame.
I hope that in the end, that she does get talked down some how. It would feel right, especially after how long their relationship (?) with each other have been throughout the series. Gimmie something emotionally hefty, damn it.
The timing of Exuberant's control of Genesis was kinda lame.
I hope that in the end, that she does get talked down some how. It would feel right, especially after how long their relationship (?) with each other have been throughout the series. Gimmie something emotionally hefty, damn it.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
Uh, does it explain how the domain is even still around? Didn't the halo rings going off destroy it since it was a neural...building sky highway psychic forcefield thing?
It's kind of weird but in Halo 4 when you access the terminals, Cortana says your accessing the Domain.
Captain Zyrain
Member
Local fragment copies of the Domain I believe.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
That doesn't explain anything in Halo 5 then.
Or why she didn't hop in the domain in Halo 4.
It doesn't. That's what makes it a mystery.
It's also only a mystery to people who know what happens in those novels. All a regular player needs to understand is that the Domain is the ancient aliens' internet.
I believe in 4, the terminals are trying to access the domain, but are stuck in a loop and can't fully access it. She probably got access on the Didact's ship inbetween 4 and 5
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
Sounds more like they painted themselves into a corner and needed a plot device to get Cortana back, and already retconned something.
Nah, the Domain was designed to be a technobabble mystery from the very beginning.
It always had a mind of its own, existed outside of our physical universe and Halo 4's connections to the Domain predate the book describing its apparent destruction. I'm sure they're making up plenty as they go along, but the Domain was always going to come back in mysterious circumstances.
7DollarHagane
Banned
I don't even understand why osiris had to be in the game.
Just put buck in place of one of the master chief Bros and be done with it. Would have been a easier to follow and more cohesive story. And would have been cool to see arby and the chief work together again.
I really like where they are going with the cortana rampancy angle. She is very much following the path of the covenant. The covenant believed the halo rings will lead them to paradise, cortana believes the guardians will lead the galaxy to peace. Both are fanatical and blind.
I think the game should have focused more on cortana and the guardians and just cut out Locke and the other two. Keep buck and cut Fred or something. Make the battle against jul-adama last longer and be more climactic.
Fred fell out an airlock who cares.
Just put buck in place of one of the master chief Bros and be done with it. Would have been a easier to follow and more cohesive story. And would have been cool to see arby and the chief work together again.
I really like where they are going with the cortana rampancy angle. She is very much following the path of the covenant. The covenant believed the halo rings will lead them to paradise, cortana believes the guardians will lead the galaxy to peace. Both are fanatical and blind.
I think the game should have focused more on cortana and the guardians and just cut out Locke and the other two. Keep buck and cut Fred or something. Make the battle against jul-adama last longer and be more climactic.
Fred fell out an airlock who cares.
7DollarHagane
Banned
Yeah I agree. This is probably the worst halo campaign. I absolutely hated the warden fights and the promethans are terrible too.
I didn't hate the wardens just because they were hard but because it wasn't fun or challenging or unique. Just hit them with inciberator, then shotgun in the back.. And the revive mechanic is terrible too.
Just finished it again on solo legendary. Really pisses me off that so many storylines from 4 are just dropped.
I really don't understand how no one at 343 said having Chief in the game for 3 missions is a bad idea. And if somebody did then they should be running the company.
I really don't understand how no one at 343 said having Chief in the game for 3 missions is a bad idea. And if somebody did then they should be running the company.
NullPointer
Member
The weirdest bit about the revive mechanic is that you can't move or crawl, and you can't fire. You're literally planted in place and left to wait.
Honestly I swear I have played a different game then everyone else. Like I don't think people need to like it, but when people say it's the worst campaign thus far, I just... find it hard to believe we played the same game.
I say that as someone who liked it, but also understand that it has problems. Since Halo 5 very much felt like a game where 343i was like: "Okay, we want to tell this story... But we can't really do it all in one game. So let's use Halo 5 as the set-up game." Basically another Halo 2 Scenario. But at least to our knowledge, there wasn't the development troubles Bungie had back then.
Halo 6 is set up to be a very different game due to the story, and I'm honestly really excited to see where this goes. Worts and all.
I say that as someone who liked it, but also understand that it has problems. Since Halo 5 very much felt like a game where 343i was like: "Okay, we want to tell this story... But we can't really do it all in one game. So let's use Halo 5 as the set-up game." Basically another Halo 2 Scenario. But at least to our knowledge, there wasn't the development troubles Bungie had back then.
Halo 6 is set up to be a very different game due to the story, and I'm honestly really excited to see where this goes. Worts and all.
Bornstellar
Member
ICwutUDidThere
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