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Supreme Court Nominee - Neil M. Gorsuch |OT|

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Maxim726X

Member
How can you be so sure? I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm just asking.

I doubt McConnell wants to lose the filibuster. Fact is, no one knows how many more justices Trump will get to appoint in the next 2 years before the midterms, or even before the end of his presidency. Maybe 2. Maybe none.

Republicans love the filibuster. Getting rid of it is a risk for them down the line.

I used to agree with this thought process- but at this point, we've seen the party threaten to destroy it multiple times already. Plus, Trump will lean on McConnell to get rid of it. And right now, they're still afraid of him.

I honestly think it's a good thing- Trump is going to fuck up and his cabinet is useless. If Dems can retake the Senate, they have power back. Might as well let Republicans sink their own boat of shit.

Because we are winning the narrative right now.

We accept that Gorsuch is going to get confirmed either way, yes? So why change the political narrative right now? If Dem's go nuke they get what out of it exactly?

They get public sentiment to remain in their corner. Right now, people want someone to stand up to Trump. It's about as image as much as anything else... And the sooner the Democrats show the country that Republicans are spineless and at they're going to cowtow to Trump, the better for the party.

In my opinion, anyway.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
It really isn't.

Either they:

A) Resist from the word go, and watch the filibuster get defanged.
B) Wait until something that they really want to fight, and watch the filibuster get defanged.

Have the Democrats learned nothing? People like bravado, resistance, and solidarity. Be the party of 'no'- The Republicans are already calling the Dems that! Might as well fucking own it. He's already ridiculously unpopular... Take advantage of it.

100% certain Trump pulls Gorsuch out if they do it and appoints someone else further right. Do it when the nominee isn't acceptable, otherwise move on.
 
How can you be so sure? I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm just asking.

I doubt McConnell wants to lose the filibuster. Fact is, no one knows how many more justices Trump will get to appoint in the next 2 years before the midterms, or even before the end of his presidency. Maybe 2. Maybe none.

Republicans love the filibuster. Getting rid of it is a risk for them down the line.

The majority party of the Senate can establish whatever rules and procedures it wants. I agree that the GOP is more likely than the Dems to remove the filibuster.

But at this point, what's stopping the GOP from removing the filibuster, re-enacting it one day before the Dems take control, daring the Dems to remove it again, and explaining their actions as necessary to protect the homeland during a time of crisis but things are okay now because America is great again?

You cannot put that kind of tactic past them.

They will remove the filibuster as soon as they can tilt the court rightward for generations.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
It's not a matter of goodwill. It's a matter of strategy.

Gorsuch is in either way, why also tear down your safety net in the process?

I see where you're coming from though. It's just different philosophies.

safety net, lol.
 

Lois_Lane

Member
Because we are winning the narrative right now.

We accept that Gorsuch is going to get confirmed either way, yes? So why change the political narrative right now? If Dem's go nuke they get what out of it exactly?

What the fuck are you talking about? We were winning the narrative during the election and what the fuck did that get us? Narratives don't win battles.
 

Syncytia

Member
It's expected at least another SCJ will retire or step-down within four years. That's what I worry for. Once that happens, and if the GOP is still in major leadership, then I can totally see them revisiting and targeting more progressive laws if they put in another conservative.

If Dems take back the Senate in 2018 and no one has left, block the fuck out of everything.
 

Averon

Member
I don't really get the argument that Dems shouldn't filibuster this pick because of the fear that the GOP will kill the filibuster. What is to stop the GOP from killing the filibuster when Ginsberg or Breyer or Kennedy's seat opens up?

All the Dems are doing is delaying the inevitable.
 
100% certain Trump pulls Gorsuch out if they do it and appoints someone else further right. Do it when the nominee isn't acceptable, otherwise move on.

Yep. Again, this is a Scalia replacement guys.

What the fuck are you talking about? We were winning the narrative during the election and what the fuck did that get us? Narratives don't win battles.

We were winning the narrative until the final two weeks. What are you on about? They clearly matter or the Comey letter wouldn't have landed when it did and drastically altered public perception.
 

joe2187

Banned
That's how I feel. The republicans use democrat dissent as an advantage. They tried to repeal Obamacare like 50 times knowing it wouldn't work, but as a symbolic gesture. Then they reference these attempts during election years and paint the democrats as evil, igniting their base

We should do the same. Filibuster this shit. Let repubs kill it if they want. But start fighting this republican nonsense. That is, if they really want to ignite their own base. Protesters will lose steam if they feel the Democratic Party aren't protesting with them through actual politics

This, let them kill the fillibuster and keep fighting back anyway, dont give an inch. Block everything, refuse everything.

He's trying to install a dictatorship, let his transparent attempts be even more clearer to the public.

Democracy has fucking changed, the Democrats need to start fighting back like savages at this point to gain control back and restore order.
 

rmt92

Member
It's expected at least another SCJ will retire or step-down within four years. That's what I worry for. Once that happens, and if the GOP is still in major leadership, then I can totally see them revisiting and targeting more progressive laws if they put in another conservative.

If it does happen, hopefully it would be within 6 months of an election. Then we could use the old "Let's let the people decide through an election" argument the republicans used this election. It would even now be based on precedent. Their precedent.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
I interviewed for a clerkship with him when he was first appeared . Nice guy. Conservative but not a firebreather. Probably the best we can hope for from Trump. Looks like they don't want a huge fight.
 
If it does happen, hopefully it would be within 6 months of an election. Then we could use the old "Let's let the people decide through an election" argument the republicans used this election. It would even now be based on precedent. Their precedent.

And it would fail, because it was a bullshit reason the first time and narratives don't matter. Results do.

This is what Dems need to understand.

A relatively principled Republican -- let's say, Jeb! -- wouldn't want to step into the minefield you just described. Trump literally gives no fucks.
 

mid83

Member
But I still worry for Roe v Wade and Brown v Board of Education with this kind of SC.

Yeah, it really sucks right now.

On Roe v Wade while we don't know his view (we can guess based on his ideas behind being against euthanasia), at worst we just replaces a vote against it, versus flipping the balance. Adding Gorsuch doesn't mean Roe vs Wade is gone.

Regarding Brown v Board of Education, this is multiple times now I've seen it mentioned here. I know people are scared but saying the SC might overturn Brown vs Board of Education amounts to nothing more than fear mongering. There is no credible evidence that this is even a possibilu other than maybe some far left blogs who might be saying as much because of Trump. Let's stay grounded in reality here.
 
I interviewed for a clerkship with him. Nice guy. Conservative but not a firebreather. Probably the best we can hope for from Trump. Looks like they don't want a huge fight.

I read the first couple of pages then skipped over to political gas Community then came back to the last page here.

All I see are discussions concerning strategies on how to block this nomination. I can't find real discussion on whether or not he is acceptable.

Evergreen the information provided here I did not see you to cheer for nor did I see anything super alarming.
 
I read the first couple of pages then skipped over to political gas Community then came back to the last page here.

All I see are discussions concerning strategies on how to block this nomination. I can't find real discussion on whether or not he is acceptable.

Evergreen the information provided here I did not see you to cheer for nor did I see anything super alarming.

He will be confirmed no matter what.

He's objectively a brilliant jurist.

He's objectively one of the best pick progressives could expect from a Republican administration.
 

Garlador

Member
Stealing this:

Obama wasn't allowed his pick because it was the last year of his presidency. Trump should not be allowed to nominate a Supreme Court Justice in the last year of his presidency.
 

Future

Member
how is that going to happen? there are only 2 GOP senators up for reelection outside of solid red states

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections,_2018

So are people just accepting that Dems will never win a red state? Defeatist attitude considering trumps approval rating is so low. If it gets lower it may indicate people are just tired of this bullshit.

Democrats need to get better at igniting passion. I think it's possible to do, especially if trump fucks up in a more universal way before 2018
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
How can you be so sure? I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm just asking.

I doubt McConnell wants to lose the filibuster. Fact is, no one knows how many more justices Trump will get to appoint in the next 2 years before the midterms, or even before the end of his presidency. Maybe 2. Maybe none.

Republicans love the filibuster. Getting rid of it is a risk for them down the line.

Even if the GOP were bluffing and wouldn't use it for this guy, I do not see how filibustering and forcing the GOP to show their hand either way hurts the democrats in any way.
 

Lois_Lane

Member
Yep. Again, this is a Scalia replacement guys.



We were winning the narrative until the final two weeks. What are you on about? They clearly matter or the Comey letter wouldn't have landed when it did and drastically altered public perception.

1. Comey's letter hit was the straw that broke the camel's back, not a narrative defining moment. If people viewed Hillary more positively then none of it would have mattered.

2. The base is angry as fuck now. If Dems were smart they would be channeling that anger to justify stalling the nomination. Refusing to stop it is a great way to demoralize the entire base before the pivotal 2018 election.
 
Stealing this:

Obama wasn't allowed his pick because it was the last year of his presidency. Trump should not be allowed to nominate a Supreme Court Justice in the last year of his presidency.

Trump doesn't care about this. Neither does the GOP. Nor do GOP or GOP-leaning voters.

We need to stop pretending that these arguments work, or will work.

The only workable strategy in this country is control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency. Anything less, and you're met with whimsical fuckery and politically expedient narratives.
 

Syncytia

Member
Stealing this:

Obama wasn't allowed his pick because it was the last year of his presidency. Trump should not be allowed to nominate a Supreme Court Justice in the last year of his presidency.

Pretty good but we know that isn't really accurate.

It's because Obama is black
 

slit

Member
Go home guys, don't protest or get involved till an election year because the public will forget.

Nice strawman, the mood of the country changes very quickly. That doesn't mean you lay down and die until 2018, it means fight that much harder NOW. You don't say "well, we might be winning so lets not rock the boat."
 

Maxim726X

Member
1. Comey's letter hit was the straw that broke the camel's back, not a narrative defining moment. If people viewed Hillary more positively then none of it would have mattered.

2. The base is angry as fuck now. If Dems were smart they would be channeling that anger to justify stalling the nomination. Refusing to stop it is a great way to demoralize the entire base before the pivotal 2018 election.

Agreed on both points.

Make them work for it. Show members of this party that you're not going to let him get away with anything.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
I read the first couple of pages then skipped over to political gas Community then came back to the last page here.

All I see are discussions concerning strategies on how to block this nomination. I can't find real discussion on whether or not he is acceptable.

Evergreen the information provided here I did not see you to cheer for nor did I see anything super alarming.

He's a mainstream conservative. If you filibuster him you're basically saying you'll filibuster anyone Trump picks. Maybe that's justified after what happened to Garland but I doubt it would ultimately keep him off the court.

I also wonder if bitter nomination fights push nominees to be even more ideological once on the court. I kind of suspect that happened to Thomas.
 

BinaryPork2737

Unconfirmed Member
Stealing this:

Obama wasn't allowed his pick because it was the last year of his presidency. Trump should not be allowed to nominate a Supreme Court Justice in the last year of his presidency.
You know he'll do it anyway if he can. The majority of Republican officials don't give a single fuck when the roles are reversed.
 
Yeah, this is a really tough situation for Dems. It's essentially a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. They filibusterer, they run the risk of blow back and the GOP going after the filibuster option and eliminating it. If they don't, then they risk their own constituents turning on them for not fighting back against the GOP for Trump and what happened to Garland -- which is especially bad during a Trump presidency.

It's fucked, especially when this guy is fairly neutral, but still conservative. Yet, he's easily one of the tamer options they've put forth, which I'm glad for. I want the dems to keep fighting, but I do recognize they have to be smart and pick their battles since they're in the minority in congress. It sucks, but a part of me feels that this one is better left alone. But I still worry for Roe v Wade and Brown v Board of Education with this kind of SC under GOP leadership.

Yeah, it really sucks right now.

I could see Roe versus Wade being overturned, but Brown versus Board?

The second Holocaust would have to happen for de jure segregation to return. Definitely another civil war at least.
 
1. Comey's letter hit was the straw that broke the camel's back, not a narrative defining moment. If people viewed Hillary more positively then none of it would have mattered.

Not a narrative defining moment, are you serious? Look at the polling data, look at the coverage. We were talking about pussy grabbing, etc. The Comey letter fucking nuked her.

2. The base is angry as fuck now. If Dems were smart they would be channeling that anger to justify stalling the nomination. Refusing to stop it is a great way to demoralize the entire base before the pivotal 2018 election.

Stalling the nomination for how long and why? Is he not qualified? This isn't DeVos.

Some of you guys are acting exceptionally hysterical. Explain to me what you want Democrats to do and tell me how this is the pathway to success. Remember, we aren't going to win with just Democrat voters alone.

Nice strawman, the mood of the country changes very quickly. That doesn't mean you lay down and die until 2018, it means fight that much harder NOW. You don't say "well, we might be winning so lets not rock the boat."

It isn't a strawman, you are stating that people will forget the protests in two years. Build on it. We are winning the short-term narrative right now, build on that, don't burn that capital on a utterly useless and futile attempt at obstruction.
 

mid83

Member
I read the first couple of pages then skipped over to political gas Community then came back to the last page here.

All I see are discussions concerning strategies on how to block this nomination. I can't find real discussion on whether or not he is acceptable.

Evergreen the information provided here I did not see you to cheer for nor did I see anything super alarming.

Vox, who are obviously partisan, did a write up on him. It was not a partisan hit job like I expected. The piece really sung his praises regarding his background and qualifications. Seems to me like a pick that the Dems shouldn't waste their political capital on blocking. The again I thought the GOP should have confirmed Garland.

I prefer justices that aren't exteme on either side, right or left, so both seem like choices I'd be happy with. I'd hate for the Dems to block this pick and have Trump turn around and shove an extremist in our faces.
 

Guevara

Member
I think democrats are actually split between firey progressives who want to burn it all down, and mainstream liberals who are tired and just want a functional government.

So blocking what appears to be a reasonable nomination can backfire.
 
Why should they accept any GOP pick though? The GOP didn't accept any Obama pick. They were already talking about getting ready to fight every Clinton pick when they thought she was going to win.

So fight. They can kill the filibuster whenever they want. So don't stand down on the fear they might do that now rather than later. Most people will support a fight here. They will likely gain more support than they lose by fighting this pick.

And again the GOP fought Obama before he even made a pick. So fight everyone. Why not? He gets in anyway but they can say they fought.
 
He's a mainstream conservative. If you filibuster him you're basically saying you'll filibuster anyone Trump picks. Maybe that's justified after what happened to Garland but I doubt it would ultimately keep him off the court.

I also wonder if bitter nomination fights push nominees to be even more ideological once on the court. I kind of suspect that happened to Thomas.

Clarence Thomas is the equivalent of Dr. Bledsoe in Ralph Ellison Invisible Man. The way that he describes himself in the novel is much too crude to repeat here.
 

FStubbs

Member
He's a mainstream conservative. If you filibuster him you're basically saying you'll filibuster anyone Trump picks. Maybe that's justified after what happened to Garland but I doubt it would ultimately keep him off the court.

I also wonder if bitter nomination fights push nominees to be even more ideological once on the court. I kind of suspect that happened to Thomas.

Thomas was an Uncle Tom who would do anything to please massa. Him being a far right extremist was always going to be the case.
 

kirblar

Member
I think democrats are actually split between firey progressives who want to burn it all down, and mainstream liberals who are tired and just want a functional government.

So blocking what appears to be a reasonable nomination can backfire.
I'm the latter and this thing needs to be fillibustered. Either he gets blocked, or it dies. Both are acceptable outcomes.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Liberals should vote no on Gorsuch but not filibuster. First, imagine that you evaluate nominees along two axes; the first axis is competence (do they have a basically sound mind, are they intelligent, are they respected by their peers, ABA recommendation, etc.) Gorsuch appears to be competent. It is not a thing you could take for granted with Trump; we could have easily gotten a Harriet Miers situation or worse. The second axis is on ideas or philosophy (i.e. their rulings are things I would agree with). The entire shortlist was full of extremely conservative justices, Gorsuch included, anyone Trump would nominate would be conservative, and anyone Republicans would confirm with their majority would be conservative. So this is about what we might have expected, and in a hypothetical reality where some other Republican than Trump had won election, this is what we'd have got.

Given that Gorsuch is competent but not ideologically desireable, why not filibuster? Suppose Gorsuch is confirmed as opposed to Scalia still being alive - what rulings are likely to change? None. 9-0 rulings are still likely to be 9-0. More importantly, which 5-4 rulings under Scalia would change to 5-4 the other way under Gorsuch? Well, if you're a Liberal, you're looking for rulings where the four liberals and Scalia voted against Kennedy, Roberts, Thomas, and Alito. Do these exist? I doubt it. Certainly almost nothing of consequence. In reality, 5-4 rulings are almost invariably either the 4 liberals and Kennedy, the 4 liberals and Roberts, or the four conservatives and Kennedy. Other configurations are exceedingly rare. Conservatives are fighting to defend the balance of power that existed when Scalia was alive. Liberals are fighting to change it. The only way that could be done would be to appoint someone to the left of Kennedy (so 5-4 decisions where Kennedy joined the conservatives become 5-4 decisions with the 4 liberals and Garland or whoever the nominee is). Appointing anyone to the right of Kennedy gets essentially the same results.

Ok, but why not filibuster anyway to leave the current 4-4 state open as long as possible? Well, it depends. If you believe that the Republicans would simply do away with the filibuster any time Democrats try it, then it doesn't matter if they filibuster or not, Gorsuch is still getting through. (There might be emotional value in going down swinging, but the result is the same). If you believe that the Republicans will do away with the filibuster after it is used the first time, but it'll work the first time, then you want to save the filibuster for Trump appointing someone to replace Breyer, RBG, or even Kennedy (all of which would actually change the Supreme Court). If you believe the Republicans won't do away with the filibuster no matter what, I've got a bridge to sell you. So we do no better by filibustering. But if it's really the case they won't end the filibuster, then you trade off having the 4-4 divided and useless court for a little while longer for the fact that it might end up being a 4-3 conservative court by the end of Trump's term assuming there's a cold war of never confirming a nominee again and for the most part the liberal coalition is a lot more vulnerable to age-related dropout than the conservative coalition.

Note that all of the logic laid out so far is just predicated on Republicans exerting maximum will to get what they want. If you re-frame this in the typical good governance setup where what Republicans do depends on public outrage, then I am not sure that you are going to get public outrage about Gorsuch. Trump plainly could have done worse.

Certainly none of this mandates supporting his nomination, speaking approvingly, or not grilling him during questioning. I just simply mean I see little strategic benefit from filibustering. It's hard to think of a circumstance where doing so results in a better outcome.

Normally I'd say "see if you can pick off Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski" but I doubt it given their willingness to exhibit party discipline during last summer's fiasco. And I think it's more likely you'll lose Joe Manchin and Joe Donnelly. Maybe Heidi Heitkamp too.
 
I think democrats are actually split between firey progressives who want to burn it all down, and mainstream liberals who are tired and just want a functional government.

So blocking what appears to be a reasonable nomination can backfire.

What are you burning down? He is going to be confirmed one way or another.
 

slit

Member
It isn't a strawman, you are stating that people will forget the protests in two years. Build on it. We are winning the short-term narrative right now, build on that, don't burn that capital on a utterly useless and futile attempt at obstruction.

It is a strawman because your claiming I'm implying don't do anything now when I'm not. Your strategy is the same tired one that got the progressive movement screwed to begin with and now you think it'll work this time for some unknown reason.
 

guek

Banned
I don't know if I'm just jaded or pragmatic. Gorsuch is going to be confirmed basically no matter what. The dems aren't the GOP, they haven't sold their souls to party over country. They also have a finite amount of energy and resources. Trying to block this pick accomplishes nothing. There's no ideological leg to stand on for the politicians other than being anti-Trump unless some horrible black mark and scandal is uncovered in the vetting process. They don't even have The flimsy excuse the GOP had in blocking Garland. I'd honestly rather they put their energies towards battles they have a chance of winning.
 
I'm the latter and this thing needs to be fillibustered. Either he gets blocked, or it dies. Both are acceptable outcomes.
Voting for a Trump pick isn't going to win us the senate. So do it. The GOP have no moral high ground here. If they kill the filibuster that's another thing we can hang around their neck.
 

Lois_Lane

Member
Not a narrative defining moment, are you serious? Look at the polling data, look at the coverage. We were talking about pussy grabbing, etc. The Comey letter fucking nuked her.
Stalling the nomination for how long and why? Is he not qualified? This isn't DeVos.

Some of you guys are acting exceptionally hysterical. Explain to me what you want Democrats to do and tell me how this is the pathway to success. Remember, we aren't going to win with just Democrat voters alone.

It isn't a strawman, you are stating that people will forget the protests in two years. Build on it. We are winning the short-term narrative right now, build on that, don't burn that capital on a utterly useless and futile attempt at obstruction.


No it did not. Again, if Hillary had not been so demonized for the last 40 plus years that letter matter what so-ever. For fuck sakes Trump and Co are using private servers right now and have you heard a single person who squawked about Hillary's servers squawking about his?

No. '

Because if his base wasn't going to care about all the other shit that's already out on him then they wouldn't care about this. The Comey letter only gave people who wanted to run away an excuse to do it.

To your latter point, I want the Dems to build the type of media empire the Repubs have. I want them to be loud and out, every single place they go about how shitty the Repubs are. I want the entire Dem base to have the same fear some old lady in bumfuck has about the 'Mooslims'. Get them to the polls whether its via fear or righteousness. Make it clear that they will stand up for their ideals even if they have to burn everything down. and doing this starts with fighting Trump's picks.
 
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