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[numble]

smartphones and smartphone games existed before the app store.

But taking a full year to two years (and I don't really see anything in 2009 that really passes the psp...doom resurrection is probably closest but even then..not quite) to pass games running on hardware 4 to 5 years older doesn't really disprove my point at all.

even if a platform launches with better specs than the vita this year, it will take several years, and several hardware iterations, for games to catch up.

You just said 2009-2010, now you're saying disregard your statement.

I don't think there was much developer focus on smartphone games until the App Store. And

I don't think a platform will take several years to pass the Vita considering the huge leap in GPU performance occurring in the new generation of mobile GPUs. I don't think there was enough power and overhead in the OS to compete with the PSP until the 3GS.

Expect Apple to have a small focus on games at their September/October iOS keynote, which will feature devices that likely will have the PowerVR Series 6 GPUs, which are supposed to be better than same generation Adreno/Tegra. They already had Crytek demo their game running on iPhone+ Controller in a NDA'ed WWDC session in June.

 

[Manmademan]

You just said 2009-2010, now you're saying disregard your statement.

nope. comprehension. I said "begin to catch up" in 2009 to 2010. There was nothing that was past PSP level in 2009. even 2010 is pushing it, but I was giving the iphone the benefit of the doubt there.

I don't think there was much developer focus on smartphone games until the App Store.
I don't think a platform will take several years to pass the Vita considering the huge leap in GPU performance occurring in the new generation of mobile GPUs. I don't think there was enough power and overhead in the OS to compete with the PSP until the 3GS.

the 3GS was running at double the CPU speed (edit: 3 times the CPU speed if you're talking the original 222 mhz models) with eight times the ram, and needed that to "compete" with the PSP.

it's going to be a good long while before there's a platform that handily outdoes the vita.

 

[numble]

nope. comprehension. I said "begin to catch up" in 2009 to 2010. There was nothing that was past PSP level in 2009. even 2010 is pushing it, but I was giving the iphone the benefit of the doubt there.

the 3GS was running at double the CPU speed (edit: 3 times the CPU speed if you're talking the original 222 mhz models) with eight times the ram, and needed that to "compete" with the PSP.

it's going to be a good long while before there's a platform that handily outdoes the vita.

You didn't say "begin to catch up," you can't fault me for not comprehending a quote that you never made.

Why are you comparing the CPU instead of the GPU? The original iPhone in 2007 handily competed with the PSP on CPU and OS ability, of course. We're talking about the GPU. The mobile operating systems are now mature and don't get in the way of GPU power anymore.

 

[charsace]

nope. comprehension. I said "begin to catch up" in 2009 to 2010. There was nothing that was past PSP level in 2009. even 2010 is pushing it, but I was giving the iphone the benefit of the doubt there.



the 3GS was running at double the CPU speed (edit: 3 times the CPU speed if you're talking the original 222 mhz models) with eight times the ram, and needed that to "compete" with the PSP.

it's going to be a good long while before there's a platform that handily outdoes the vita.

iPhone 3's can run UE3. No way was the PSP more powerful.

 

[Nirolak]

I'm not sure the average consumer would notice a huge difference.

2012 Multiplayer iOS Game:

2013 Campaign Mode Vita:

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

A lot of posters seem to be missing the idea that if Android was on more than just smartphones and tablets, it may have games that are made for things besides smartphones and tablets. At this point, yeah, it's mostly home to shitty mobile games. However, if Amazon and Google are interested in making it a gaming platform then they definitely have the funds to make it happen. At the end of the day it's just an OS, and it can handle whatever genre/style a developer wishes. Assuming that because it only has mobile games on it now means that it will only have mobile games when/if it's in a large number of living rooms is silly.

Are there really devs that are interested in Android and Apple that are willing to completely ignore the phone and tablet userbases? At that point, why shouldn't you just put your game on Steam or Xbla/psn?

iOS and Android are not attractive development platforms just because, their ubiquitous nature makes the attack rate equation very favorable for just about any kind of game. Launching a game on an Android exclusive console makes about as much sense as launching on Windows 8 mobile/RT - you're only doing it if MS is heavily subsidizing the endeavor.

 

[Oblivion]

Forgive me for being late to this news, but Amazon's making a game console? What possible reason could they have for jumping into this territory?

 

[p3tran]

Forgive me for being late to this news, but Amazon's making a game console? What possible reason could they have for jumping into this territory?

same as everyone. dollars, euros, yen

 

[Afrodium]

Are there really devs that are interested in Android and Apple that are willing to completely ignore the phone and tablet userbases? At that point, why shouldn't you just put your game on Steam or Xbla/psn?

iOS and Android are not attractive development platforms just because, their ubiquitous nature makes the attack rate equation very favorable for just about any kind of game. Launching a game on an Android exclusive console makes about as much sense as launching on Windows 8 mobile/RT - you're only doing it if MS is heavily subsidizing the endeavor.

Right now the phone/tablet userbase is hard to ignore. However, with Google and Amazon now developing Android powered set top boxes, and likely many more companies doing this in the future, it is possible that in a few years it would be very smart for developers to make Android games with a console-like experience in mind. These would not be games developed specifically for the Amazon box or Google box or whatever, but rather games for Android that can be played on these boxes and many others. These games could very well be on Steam, PSN, and XBLA too.

As for exclusivity, your comment about subsidizing is spot on, and I expect it. We've already seen that Amazon is snagging devs. It's likely that if Google really wants to get into the living room space (and why wouldn't they?) that they'll start doing the same thing. Both of the corporations are more than capable of moneyhatting a few studios as a means of kickstarting real game development on the Android ecosystem.

 

[brain_stew]

Well it's the best they can do with currently available commodity SOCs and with the sort of clocks they'll be able to push in a STB it won't be a million miles away from current generation consoles. The Android overhead may keep away ports of cross generation multiplatforms but their commitment to use a high end mobile SOC should mean they could arrive after the first (yearly) refresh.

I can see the biggest limiting factor for "full scale" core games long term being limited local storage.

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

Still seems like a pretty dumb idea for them to make this thing.

IT puts them at odds with the game developers whose titles they sell.

 

[brain_stew]

If Amazon end up releasing a console more powerful than WiiU I will laugh and then cry...

This isn't more powerful than the Wii U, although the first yearly refresh could well be.

 

[AgentP]

At $200 this will bomb. Never-mind how powerful it is if they are just 3rd tier exclusives and Android games. This really needs to be a Apple TV or Google TV competitor that happens to have games too.

Also being Amazon it will be in a walled garden that will suck. No Google Play store. I got tired of this with my wife's Kindle Fire, so I put CM10.1 on it. Much better now.

 

[brain_stew]

lol
This will be nowhere close to PS3/X360 level. Sure GPU is kinda approaching them [still not good enough], but the rest of the system still has a lot to be desired [CPU, RAM speed] and off course, devs dont have direct access to the hardware.

Eh, the CPU is a better solution for a console than Xenon ever was and mobile GPUs are more bandwidth efficient. LPDDR3 will still provide ~12.8GB/s of bandwidth.

It won't match the PS3/360 I agree but it will definitely approach that ballpark when released from the power and heat restraints of mobile devices. Next year's refresh? It can surpass them.

 

[Somnid]

Interestingly enough I think the mobile market absolutely needs this to continue hardware growth. I think the problem that maybe isn't super well understood by the general observer is that the high-end is facing growth issues. Basically, we've rapidly gotten to the point where 99% of apps can run fine on the chips we have and therefore it's harder and harder to market phone performance. While a couple of games might push the boundaries it's simply not enough justification to spend hundreds of dollars on a handful of $6 apps. Without actually building a userbase that cares about the games first it's going to be hard to break that chicken-egg thing and actually elevate the quality of mobile games to something more palatable.

I think the idea of iterative growth is interesting because over the next generation I'd expect it to massively slow as consumers simply opt for cheaper options in their devices that work just as well. That doesn't bode well for companies that spend billions of R&D to produce new chips. Nobody is buying Exynos SoCs, even Samsung barely uses them, nobody is buying Tegras anymore either. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of chip manufacturers dwindled to 2 or 3 like it is with desktop CPUs and GPUs now with those being the only ones to service the upper end. Without a strong gaming push the high end is really unimportant to your average user.

 

[brain_stew]

At $200 this will bomb. Never-mind how powerful it is if they are just 3rd tier exclusives and Android games. This really needs to be a Apple TV or Google TV competitor that happens to have games too.

Also being Amazon it will be in a walled garden that will suck. No Google Play store. I got tired of this with my wife's Kindle Fire, so I put CM10.1 on it. Much better now.

Good job it won't be $200 then. Amazon's model is to sell their hardware at cost and the BOM for this box will not be $200.

 

[VanWinkle]

I'm not sure the average consumer would notice a huge difference.

2012 Multiplayer iOS Game:

2013 Campaign Mode Vita:

And if you take 5 seconds of the two games in motion, you'll notice an absolutely MASSIVE difference in lighting, textures, attention to detail, reflection, shadows, presentation, and audio quality.

 

[Nirolak]

And if you take 5 seconds of the two games in motion, you'll notice an absolutely MASSIVE difference in lighting, textures, attention to detail, reflection, shadows, presentation, and audio quality.

Okay let's see.

Dead Trigger 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_tQnK6-NAY

Killzone Mercernary Beta: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw4a0rKmp_8

I'm not sure I'd consider these massively apart.

It's not out to consumers yet, so you can decide if you like the offscreen or press shot better:

The zombie detail is definitely lower than Mercs, but there are a lot of them on screen quite often.

Reflections and particle effects seem fine. Not seeing huge issues with the lighting.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Okay let's see.

Dead Trigger 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_tQnK6-NAY

Killzone Mercernary Beta: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_tQnK6-NAY

I'm not sure I'd consider these massively apart.

You posted the same link twice. But in any case, I agree.

Budgets for mobile games aren't even a fraction of the budget of an average retail console or handheld title though.

 

[Nirolak]

You posted the same link twice. But in any case, I agree.

Budgets for mobile games aren't even a fraction of the budget of an average retail console or handheld title though.

Sorry, I went back and fixed that.

And yes I agree, economics to me is the major gating factor on mobile games, both in price points you can sell games for and thus the amount spent on any given game.

 

[Opiate]

Sorry, I went back and fixed that.

And yes I agree, economics to me is the major gating factor on mobile games, both in price points you can sell games for and thus the amount spent on any given game.

I would even say it's a major factor on PC. There are far less PC-exclusive games which blow away what consoles are capable of mostly because of money, not because of technical horsepower limitations.

Generally, (as Nirolak knows, but others might not), consoles have managed to keep scaling production values by decreasing the total number of games made and investing the saved resources in to the remaining ones. Instead of 2 10 million dollar games, we get 1 20 million dollar one, for example.

 

[Oblivion]

same as everyone. dollars, euros, yen

Well, sure but it still seems weird. Amazon is a retailer. They don't have any experience actually building anything. At least Sorny and MIcrosoft were actual tech related companies when they jumped in.

 

[rohlfinator]

I really don't think performance is going to be a big factor for something like this -- the real selling points will be the price, the app store model, and possibly cross-compatibility with other Android devices. It just needs to hit some baseline level where it can run Android games well. It'll never get ports of $60 next-gen games like Destiny or Watch Dogs, so why even target that level?

Microsoft talks about how people are using their 360s more for Netflix than games. Do those people really need a $500 console, or could they get by with a $99-149 Roku-like device with more of a gaming focus?

 

[blu]

Is not that you'll put up a phone CPU in a console box and be done with it, we are not talking about miliwatts here. ARM could cook up something for Nintendo in their performance range with better w/p ratio.

ARM are not in the business of cooking up custom designs, though. Perhaps some of the ARM architecture licensees could do so, but that's again in the sheer hypothetical domain.

To return to the subject of this thread, if that rumor is true it'd be curios to see the return of Xenos under the TV.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

Don't want to derail much but i'll expand a bit...

If Nintendo was interested (as they say) in performance per watt, going with ARM and mobile type of hardware would have been a better proposition than what we got with the Wii U.

Some nice bonuses for going that route, like development familiarity, future proofing, breaching the gap (better say closing it) between console and handheld development. Plus the prospect of your home console hardware becoming your portable one years down the line are too good. The custom job they did with their old architecture, CPU wise, has not given then any benefits. Specially when we considere development of titles is behind schedule anyways and the MCM is rather expensive for the performance it offers.

There were rumors of Nintendo teaming up with Amazon for some type of DD system for Wii U before it was announced. Then Amazon quit directly selling Nintendo systems. Now we have this. Perhaps there were some truth to these rumors?

In hindsight, it's a bit disappointing that Nintendo was less forward thinking with the architecture of Wii U. They sacrificed a lot for BC with Wii. What surprised me was at CES this year, just months after Wii U was released we saw that mobile processing power was closing the gap of reaching PS3/360/Wii U level graphics.

At the same time, whatever Amazon releases will likely be surpassed in power very quickly. By the end of next year, we might see Tegra 5. I'm interested in how powerful a Cortex A57 w/mobile Kepler will be. The mobile space is advancing at crazy speeds.

disagree. It's competition for the PS3 and 360. no one ready to hand over $400-500, and looking for the performance of a PS4 or Xbox One is going to be satisfied with something "around the level of a PS3 or WiiU." you might as well say it's competition for PC gaming.

as for the appeal of "a box that sits under the tv and streams video and plays games" there are already 160 million of those in homes right now. They're called the PS3 and Xbox 360. You can even throw the wii in there, for people who truly do not care that much about graphics, and smart tvs, for those who don't care about games at all. There's even that $35 google thing that plugs into a laptop or whatever to stream video.

At this point, "streaming instant video" isn't much of a draw. just about EVERYTHING streams instant video. Amazon is going to have to come out with something a lot more attractive to take market share.

I agree with Amazon having to come up with a "hook" to attract people to buy their box, but saying it isn't potentially competing with PS4/XB1 is like saying the Wii didn't compete with PS3/360. It could potentially disrupt the market like Wii did especially if they have games ready, the price is right and all the pieces fall into place. I'm sure everyone feels this is a long shot, but how long will people have their PS3/360 under the TV? Eventually those devices will need to be replaced. This is Amazon's first device like this but I don't think it will be their last. I see it more as they are setting themselves long term up for the future.

 

[Somnid]

Well, sure but it still seems weird. Amazon is a retailer. They don't have any experience actually building anything. At least Sorny and MIcrosoft were actual tech related companies when they jumped in.

Lab 126 (Amazon's hardware division) started in 2004 and currently employs over 1000 people. It's doubled in size nearly every year.

 

[blu]

In hindsight, it's a bit disappointing that Nintendo was less forward thinking with the architecture of Wii U. They sacrificed a lot for BC with Wii. What surprised me was at CES this year, just months after Wii U was released we saw that mobile processing power was closing the gap of reaching PS3/360/Wii U level graphics.

At the same time, whatever Amazon releases will likely be surpassed in power very quickly. By the end of next year, we might see Tegra 5. I'm interested in how powerful a Cortex A57 w/mobile Kepler will be. The mobile space is advancing at crazy speeds.

The business case of A57 (and ARMv8 in general) is less mobile and more server-oriented, though.

On an unrelated note, IBM recently opened up its Power Architecture for licensing (ARM-style), and guess who was among the early interested parties.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

ARM are not in the business of cooking up custom designs, though. Perhaps some of the ARM architecture licensees could do so, but that's again in the sheer hypothetical domain.

To return to the subject of this thread, if that rumor is true it'd be curios to see the return of Xenos under the TV.

I was thinking they could have just used the same architecture, but increased the clock speeds and power draw for the console compared to whatever they put in their handheld. I'm not sure if there is a ceiling on how much they can take though. Is this even possible?

 

[MadOdorMachine]

The business case of A57 (and ARMv8 in general) is less mobile and more server-oriented, though.

On an unrelated note, IBM recently opened up its Power Architecture for licensing (ARM-style), and guess who was among the early interested parties.

It will be used for servers and superphones/tablets. IIRC it will deliver more performance than an A15 at the same power draw.

 

[creyas]

Ouya had a good run.

Didn't even know Amazon had a hardware division. What have they made so far?

..Kindle?

 

[Oblivion]

Lab 126 (Amazon's hardware division) started in 2004 and currently employs over 1000 people. It's doubled in size nearly every year.

Didn't even know Amazon had a hardware division. What have they made so far?

 

[Cipherr]

It's the bad kind - the kind that says 'hey, these graphics look ok. Do those graphics on the PS4 really look like they're worth $300 more than this cute little box?'

it could be very disrupted based solely on price.

Does that 'kind' come with the games a gamer can buy on their PS4 and XBONE, along with the community functions? Because if not, its still not going to do anything to the two consoles.....

Price means nothing for core gaming if you don't have the games. If you think a cheaper box will save you, go talk to the WiiU this fall when the PS4 and XBONE launch. Wii didn't do as well as it did because it was cheaper than the PS3 and 360, it did as well as it did because people wanted to play MKWii WiiSports and all that stuff.

 

[Reallink]

Why are so many people talking about $200? It ain't happening. If it's indeed an Android box, 80% chance it'll $99 or less, 20% chance it'll be $149 or less, and 0% chance it'll be over $150. Amazon have no interest in profiting off hardware on a device like this, and a controller doesn't even begin to approach the expense of 1080p+ screens, tighter tolerances, and superior materials/build you find in phones/tablets.

 

[blu]

It will be used for servers and superphones/tablets. IIRC it will deliver more performance than an A15 at the same power draw.

For AArch4 tasks on the A57? Of for AArc32 tasks on the A53 ; )

 

[Oblivion]

..Kindle?

Sounds familiar..

 

[Somnid]

Didn't even know Amazon had a hardware division. What have they made so far?

Kindle (1st Gen)
Kindle (2nd Gen)
Kindle (3rd Gen)
Kindle DX
Kindle Touch
Kindle PaperWhite
Kindle Fire
Kindle Fire (2nd Gen)
Kindle Fire HD (7")
Kindle Fire HD (8.9")
+variants

Rumored to be currently working on/investigating/playing around with:

Amazon set-top box (this)
2 different Amazon Phones
Amazon Music Player
3 next-gen Kindle Fires
Next-gen Kindle

 

[Oblivion]

Kindle (1st Gen)
Kindle (2nd Gen)
Kindle (3rd Gen)
Kindle DX
Kindle Touch
Kindle PaperWhite
Kindle Fire
Kindle Fire (2nd Gen)
Kindle Fire HD (7")
Kindle Fire HD (8.9")
+variants

Still not sure what a kindle is, but you didn't need to list every model.

Rumored to be currently working on/investigating/playing around with:

Amazon set-top box (this)
2 different Amazon Phones
Amazon Music Player

Huh, very interesting.

 

[Persona86]

Seems...unambitious.

 

[Courage]

I'd also buy at $200 if my Prime membership gives me free games.

 

[Truespeed]

The former presumably.

The new Nexus 7 uses a Snapdragon S4, which isn't miles away from this, to give a basis point.

This also won't have a high quality integrated screen like that does, so Amazon's costs should be quite a bit lower.

So the 7 doesn't really use an S4. It's more of a down clocked Snapdragon 600. The cores are all Krait 300.

 

[Truespeed]

Ouya had a good run.

The intent of Ouya was always yearly iterations. So I wouldn't be surprised to see a V2 with a Snapdragon 600/Adreno 320 for $99.

 

[cuyahoga]

Still seems like a pretty dumb idea for them to make this thing.

IT puts them at odds with the game developers whose titles they sell.

How so? They are actively recruiting developers to develop for the platform; most Amazon Console games will be externally developed. Think how Microsoft handles XBLA stuff — a handful of internal games, but a ton of external games.

I'd also buy at $200 if my Prime membership gives me free games.

I really wonder how Prime will factor in here, come to think of it.

 

[GodofWine]

If amazon prime works like ps+ i'd get one for the family room and let it be for my kids mainly, and use it to stream video as well, if its about $100.

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

Why are so many people talking about $200? It ain't happening. If it's indeed an Android box, 80% chance it'll $99 or less, 20% chance it'll be $149 or less, and 0% chance it'll be over $150. Amazon have no interest in profiting off hardware on a device like this, and a controller doesn't even begin to approach the expense of 1080p+ screens, tighter tolerances, and superior materials/build you find in phones/tablets.

I don't get it either. It's likely going to be a mobile SoC in a box and come with a controller like the Ouya. There's no way in hell this thing is going to be $200, or even $150. Especially when you consider Amazon likes to make their products as cheap as possible.

 

[DonMigs85]

Sometimes I get the feeling the quad SGX543 in the Vita isn't being pushed the way it should.

 

[Lonely1]

The Shield is already considerably more powerful than a Vita, and isn't held down by super high definition target screen like the iPad 4.

 

[DonMigs85]

The Shield is already considerably more powerful than a Vita, and isn't held down by super high definition like the iPad 4.

Yep, the Shield may even be more capable than the 360 in certain areas.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

The Shield is already considerably more powerful than a Vita, and isn't held down by super high definition like the iPad 4.

does it have it's own pool of vram

 

[Lonely1]

does it have it's own pool or vram

So?

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

The Shield is already considerably more powerful than a Vita, and isn't held down by super high definition target screen like the iPad 4.

So?

I meant does it have it's own pool of VRAM, My bad.