Then don't pirate it, wait for a sale - there is no excuses for piracy. Most of them just want shit for free though.
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The Witness is being heavily pirated. J. Blow says piracy could impact his future.
- Thread starter Raylan
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Then don't pirate it, wait for a sale - there is no excuses for piracy. Most of them just want shit for free though.
Uhm, obviously, you need to calculate the port costs too. But are you seriously implying that pc as a platform lacks the sales to validate a port(?)? Seriously. Especially considering that most developments are running first on pc, and are later ported to ps4/whatever. (I know, not necessarily true, but still. There is SOME platform where the development is STARTED, so you cant assume porting cost to platform zero, just plain and simple development costs instead.)
If so, I would like to see your data on that.
Steve Youngblood
Member
OK. So what you're willing to pay diminishes over the lifetime of a title? I can sort of understand that. But my question then becomes, ok, it's not a new title anymore. It's been out 6-12 months+. What would you consider spending on the title?
Oppo
Member
this is exactly the thing. Everybody can afford this game. Maybe they can afford it at launch-but eventually, due to sales, they can. So it's a bit of disingenuous argument. it's a lot like soft cover versus hardcover books, to my mind.
Blow invested a fortune and I think even went into the red while developing this game, so I think he's entitled to say that massive waves of piracy may impact his future game developments.
mikefrails
Banned
I'm hearing great things about the game and wish I could've bought it week one but it came out at an bad time for me. I'm holding out until next payday.
I think the $40 price point is fine given how enriching the experience seems to be.
I think the $40 price point is fine given how enriching the experience seems to be.
Honestly, his tweet isn't that bad really. The article kind of blew it out of proportion.
I think there is something to be said about the price. I've bought it, but I was initially turned off by the price. The same went for Talos Principle actually, in that games case I just waited for a sale. I feel like a indie puzzle game for that kind of price is just a hard sell for most people.
That all said, I'm not in anyway condoning piracy. There's more than enough game releases to keep people busy while they wait for sales on these games.
In terms of the UK.
£30 is the price most people pay for AAA PC games.
I think there is something to be said about the price. I've bought it, but I was initially turned off by the price. The same went for Talos Principle actually, in that games case I just waited for a sale. I feel like a indie puzzle game for that kind of price is just a hard sell for most people.
That all said, I'm not in anyway condoning piracy. There's more than enough game releases to keep people busy while they wait for sales on these games.
In terms of the UK.
£30 is the price most people pay for AAA PC games.
I'm not sure you realize it, but this kind of reason is why at current trends F2P will penetrate the market much higher in the coming years. The race to bottom is becoming unbearable for a lot of devs. Pricing the Witness at 5$ at launch would ensure the game wouldn't probably break even, and even if it did, way too long after the developer would have not been able to sustain themselves. If you think about the 6$ million budget, even 20$ could be dangerous in the long run.
You are free to buy whatever products you like when the price is right, but don't be surprised when those games stop appearing or transform into F2P, with its own caveats.
It really sucks that it's getting pirated so much. I look forward to playing it, but for me, it'll have to wait because it released at a really heavy time. I just got Dragon's Dogma, SFV is out in about a week, then there's The Division in March. I probably won't get to try it until April at this rate.
joecanada
Member
Nowhere in my post did I advocate pirating. I'm saying there may be people who might try the game by pirating but would never buy it. I didn't say that it's right. But it's a fact.
Edit - also there's a price difference here with respect to crimes. Thats why there's different penalty for theft over 1000
Chû Totoro
Member
There's no measurable numbers of pirated version dl so it's a bit early to relate less good sales than he expected to piracy.
Piracy hurts but a lot of people are willing to pay for good games.
For bad sales there could be many many reason:
- maybe some people are thinking that the game is not good enough for them
- some are waiting for the hype to vanish so they could see more solid opinions shared before making their purchase decision
- some are waiting for a price drop because even if they want the game, it's not in their budget yet
- some have changed their mind because the motion sickness issues some people encountered or no VR support on PS4
- and so on...
We'll see if the game is still heavily pirated in the upcoming weeks but again a lot of things are pirated heavily and still succeed so there has to be other reasons to justify a "no game support", "no sequel" or even worse "no more games from him" future.
Let's wait a little and let people who bought the game enjoy it for now. Word of mouth can do wonders so the game may have legs (maybe VR support will help it being a VR must have).
Piracy hurts but a lot of people are willing to pay for good games.
For bad sales there could be many many reason:
- maybe some people are thinking that the game is not good enough for them
- some are waiting for the hype to vanish so they could see more solid opinions shared before making their purchase decision
- some are waiting for a price drop because even if they want the game, it's not in their budget yet
- some have changed their mind because the motion sickness issues some people encountered or no VR support on PS4
- and so on...
We'll see if the game is still heavily pirated in the upcoming weeks but again a lot of things are pirated heavily and still succeed so there has to be other reasons to justify a "no game support", "no sequel" or even worse "no more games from him" future.
Let's wait a little and let people who bought the game enjoy it for now. Word of mouth can do wonders so the game may have legs (maybe VR support will help it being a VR must have).
Jacksinthe
Banned
I meant exactly what I said.
You said by releasing the game on PC that you would get more sales without acknowledging the cost of development.
I mentioned the cost of development as a factor that more total sales does not mean more total profits if the cost of development on a platform outweighs the profits made by releasing on that platform.
There's also plenty of data to Google that will show you a flip of the coin is the best metric for where any one title will sell. It can be any one of the platforms by extremely wild margins which make sales on opposing platforms inconsequential and other times its fairly even across the board. There is no rhyme or reason this happens when the type of game fits snugly anywhere it is placed. I can see MMOs, RTS, etc doing far better on PC by virtue of peripheral input but for games that fit regardless, there are swings in every direction as well as steady across the board.
Of course people think like that. At the end of the day the surface level of the Witness is just little maze puzzles. I'm not saying that's entirely what it IS, but realistically that is the game. That's like saying that you shouldn't be playing anything but WoW because it's got a gajillion things to do and it's often on sale for 5 bucks and you can play it for free once you're in now. But that's not how this works, saying it's 30+ hours doesn't mean anything, it could be 400 hours and it wouldn't mean anything, the perception is that it's little maze puzzles, not the length.
That perception is not entirely inaccurate, hence - people dont' want to spend that much for it.
I mean you could make a version of The Witness where every puzzle was a variant on say, Solitaire. People would still perceive the game as 'solitaire' and would not want to spend 40 dollars on that either.
Psychoward
Banned
I'd love to buy it because it seems like a fantastic game but I don't like puzzle games enough to justify dropping $40 on it even if it's worth that. I also hardly buy games for full price anymore though.
crazyrabbits
Banned
Most games are heavily pirated anyway. I have no problem with the dev pricing it at $40. Considering how fast most PC games depreciate in value, I'll just wait until it hits $5 and get it that way. I already have enough games I paid for that are competing for my time.
I think Denuvo DRM'd games take months to get cracked, but it's only been used by AAA games so far.
I'm not sure how much it would have costed for this game to get such DRM, but it's too late now.
I would say most indie devs don't bother with DRM at all. If it's going to be pirated anyway, might as well not screw over those that do pay for it.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Finding the reasons why people might pirate a game doesnt mean they are advocating piracy.
So everyone who finds reasons why people might pirate, are pirates themselves...
Must be true.
Strange that a lot of people who do also have that game on Steam (me included)...
What's insane is that people are pretending it's somehow illegitimate to bemoan one's product being pirated. Yeah, it's a thing that happens, but since when is that a reason to avoid discussing/acknowledging/pushing against something? Why does Blow have to walk on eggshells to express negative feelings about The Witness being pirated?
Now, it's true enough that some developers have exaggerated the affects of pirating, and used it as an excuse for bad practices. That doesn't mean, though, that piracy simply has to become something everyone happily accepts.
I also don't understand all the "The Witness has been priced out of the market" comments. I mean, do people even know what that means? When it's so easy to pirate, a lot of people doing it hardly means there isn't also substantial demand for something at whatever price point. I'm sure there are other heavily pirated games people making the "priced out" argument would have been happy to pay full price for. You can't say a game that's currently a top 3 seller on Steam has been priced out of the market - that simply doesn't make any sense.
Besides, whatever your perceived value of the game, why is that suddenly a huge point of contention now? The Witness has been in development for many years, by most accounts is superbly put together, and provides dozens of hours of entertainment. You may not personally care to pay $40 for it, but what makes this distinct from you not being willing to pay $60 for, say, a AAA game by a developer you don't like? Is there really something specific to this situation that makes you especially sensitive to the price, besides your preconceived notions of how much an indie game should be sold for?
Jacksinthe
Banned
You don't need a thinking cap to solve this riddle.
Steve Youngblood
Member
OK. That's at least better than your initial offering which read like "it should be $5 now because that's what I'd pay; $40 is BS."
If someone's stealing my shit, of course I'd be bothered by it.
NullPointer
Member
I'm still trying to figure out what principles, examples, metrics, concepts, whatever people are using when coming to the conclusion that $40 is objectively too expensive for this game.
What are people comparing the Witness to to say its overpriced?
What are people comparing the Witness to to say its overpriced?
Chairmanchuck
Member
Because its an Indie-Game it must be 5$.
Because its just a Puzzle-game it must be 5$.
etc.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
I know the price shouldn't have affected it, but it really does seem like in this case it did.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Piracy doesn't have a reason, it has an excuse.
Also, we would all love to find out "why" - that's not the problem.
His and my posts were targeting those that are trying to find ways to JUSTIFY, not find "reasons" (excuses).
There's a line between the two and its easy to miss.
ChetWilson
Banned
You can relax, I was talking generally.
I will point out though, supply/demand curves are not given by God to the creators of a product the day before they decide what their good will be priced at. Optimal price point is not known, it is only estimated. No one knows for sure if lowering the price of the Witness to $20 will result in enough extra sales to generate a better profit. Depending on their anticipated consumer base, some people will simply pay 'whatever' for a game and there really won't be that many more sales by lowering their price. This can happen w/ niche audiences.
Nintendo games are in this vein. There is a cult of people that Super Smash Brawl, and if Brawl was half off, it would not generate 'double' the sales. There is not a trove of people sitting on the fence denying themselves Nintendo games because they are too high. There are some, sure, but not a gigantic mob.
to other puzzle games? Why it is so hard to understand?
Chairmanchuck
Member
Other 3d Puzzle games that are similar to Witness are Portal 2 to a certain extent and Thalos. And both were full-price titles or at least also 40$ at release, werent they?
I feel like this is the crux of the issue.
People generally don't know what the game is or why it's good, except maybe that it has "line puzzles." And "you have to play it to understand why it's good" is always a hard sell - people generally want to know what they're buying.
This can be a challenge for any game at any price, but I think it's even harder for indies who are expected to do more to "justify" the cost of their games for some reason.
So I feel this is more of a failure of marketing than anything else.
I haven't played the game yet, but I feel like he probably could've done more to show the game and explain what it is without spoiling it.
And I think he probably should've announced the price a while ago, and then done streams, interviews, etc. to explain the price point. This would let people process the price and assess what value they see in the game while they "come to grips" with it, so to speak.
I think it can settle out well for him in the end, but it's going to take a while for word of mouth to counter the sticker shock a lot of people are feeling with this game.
Well The Talos Principle had the exact same reaction.
Most of the sales of the game came a lot further down the line as far as I understand.
Marty Chinn
Member
My guess is the criteria is as follows:
If it's got EA, Activision, Take 2, Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft, Ubisoft, etc attached to it, $60
If it's the PC version, subtract $10 to $20 less
If it's a handheld game, $30 to $40
If it's an indie game, $10 to $20
If it's a mobile game, $1 to $5
If I'm cheap, take those prices and cut them in half.
Now which bucket would The Witness fall under?
What? So it's better to make $135 instead of $240?
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
His mistake for releasing on PC same day as PS4. Had he staggered the release out a few months, it probably would have compelled some of those pirates who also own PS4 to buy it there. Also, the review hype wouldn't have hurt PC pre-orders.
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend asking if I would have paid $60 for Portal 1. (Assuming before I knew what the games was)
Short in length
Lots of reused assets
Graphically not the best looking
Limited in extra content and repeatability.
But, its one of my favorite games ever. BUT BUT BUT I don't think I would have enjoyed it nearly as much if I paid 60 bucks for it instead of it being a pack in.
The question "what determines value" is so mind-numbingly difficult I don't even have a straight answer. I'm so glad Portal wasn't 60 bucks because I think it would have impacted my perception. However, I have no problem with the $60 I spent on Portal 2
I'm not getting the Witness right away because chances are I'm buying Xcom 2 and will be sinking my teeth into that for awhile, but I do wish this game was cheaper, because although I haven't played it, I think having to pay a higher price for a puzzle game like this will impact my perception of it. I rather be "pleasantly surprised" than feel like "oh I'm paying a lot, so where are these things: music, VO, etc." And I think that will be the Witness experience.
I don't know. Can't wait to play it when I eventually get around to it.
Short in length
Lots of reused assets
Graphically not the best looking
Limited in extra content and repeatability.
But, its one of my favorite games ever. BUT BUT BUT I don't think I would have enjoyed it nearly as much if I paid 60 bucks for it instead of it being a pack in.
The question "what determines value" is so mind-numbingly difficult I don't even have a straight answer. I'm so glad Portal wasn't 60 bucks because I think it would have impacted my perception. However, I have no problem with the $60 I spent on Portal 2
I'm not getting the Witness right away because chances are I'm buying Xcom 2 and will be sinking my teeth into that for awhile, but I do wish this game was cheaper, because although I haven't played it, I think having to pay a higher price for a puzzle game like this will impact my perception of it. I rather be "pleasantly surprised" than feel like "oh I'm paying a lot, so where are these things: music, VO, etc." And I think that will be the Witness experience.
I don't know. Can't wait to play it when I eventually get around to it.
Its nothing but an appeal to history argument mixed in with a bit of entitlement and greed. Its like some people still live in the 90's. Developing games is a much riskier proposition for creators nowadays; they are much more complex and more difficult to make while usually also offering better value than ever before. Bigger teams, more assets, more tasks, more money involved. Not to mention the horrid hours devs have to work as a result.
There are very few industries where the end product can change so radically throught the decades, but people still "demand" the same prices or sometimes even lower, no matter what goes into the product.
Chairmanchuck
Member
And then after playing Thalos I think most people saw why the price was like that, because they expected the game to be about 2-3 hours long.
But I can understand why people dont want to pay 40$ for that. I mean its their decision. And I am kind of a hypocrite when I say its worth 40$, because in my region its just 15$.
MassiveNights
Banned
Reaaaaaalllll shitty.
Doctor Ironic
Member
That argument doesn't really make sense because Portal 1 WAS released independently for $20, and I absolutely would have paid $20 in 2008 for it.
Portal 2 had significantly more content and was worth the $60 when it released, too.
Who is it?
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
I wonder how they can tell?
I hope they don't have subscribers because if they can't make enough for a game then that's suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper shitty.
Chezzymann
Member
I wish he would call out that streamer. I know its unprofessional to do that but it really pisses me off.
GinoFelino
Member
Yup, he was almost literally asking for it by releasing his game on two platforms at once.
That's sarcasm, and illogical comments elsewhere are forcing me to point that out.
Anyway, I can't spare 36 euros for this now. I wish I could, and I'm happy others can. I'll get it soon as I'm able. The only and best option if you want a thing but can't afford it right now.
You're burying your head in the sand if you think it's just pirates who are like this.
That's certainly uncalled for.
Ooooooooooohhhhh, the drama is about to get intense.
Edit: DetectiveGAF, make me proud!
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