Mass_Pincup
Banned
Oh please, it has nothing to do with it being indie, every games gets pirated from 5$ games to 60$ games, indie or not.
Fallout 4 is the most pirated game right now.
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The Witness is being heavily pirated. J. Blow says piracy could impact his future.
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Oh please, it has nothing to do with it being indie, every games gets pirated from 5$ games to 60$ games, indie or not.
Fallout 4 is the most pirated game right now.
UncleSporky
Member
The post I quoted called the other statement "victim-blaming" as if there is no situation where you could hold someone partly responsible for the state they find themselves in.
If he didn't price himself out of the market, then the statement is simply wrong, not "victim-blaming."
Vincent Grayson
Member
There is if it leads to him making less money than he would have at a lower price point.
Lord British
Member
This has probably been covered, but this is the kind of game I don't want to go into blind at £29.99 :/
I'd pay a few quid for a "lite" version, pay to unlock the rest, just to see if it's my kind of thing? A demo, maybe? But I can't justify the full price because sometimes I bounce hard off these kinds of games.
Obviously nothing justifies piracy, though, so please don't read this as such!
I'd pay a few quid for a "lite" version, pay to unlock the rest, just to see if it's my kind of thing? A demo, maybe? But I can't justify the full price because sometimes I bounce hard off these kinds of games.
Obviously nothing justifies piracy, though, so please don't read this as such!
Dreams-Visions
Member
This is the reason I won't be buying the game until it's on sale.
I don't care how good the reviews are; just because a game is enjoyed by some doesn't mean it'll be enjoyed by all. With well over 100 games in Steam that I haven't even played yet, adding another game requires incentivization. Paying full price for a game that I personally may only play for an hour before going back to my regular games isn't something I'm willing to do. It's great apparently, but it wouldn't be the first that I bought and got nothing out of for my full-price money.
If I could have picked it up as a pre-order a few days ago at 25%-35% off or something, It'd be in my games list. But it wasn't, so it's not.
So yes, for many the price has everything to do with it, less than a month removed from Steam's Christmas sale.
Go watch a let's play or wait for a sale/price drop if you are unsure whether the game is for you. People arent entitled to try out games for free. The absense of a demo is not free reign to pirate. Steam offering no questions asked refunds protects you from bad purchases. That is more than enough.
A lot of the "I pirate games but eventually buy the ones I like" group often seem to leave out the fact that they pirate so they can play day 1 and then buy on sale for a fraction of the price weeks or months later in my experience.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I think it's important not to read too much into this stuff. The game could be one dollar and there's still going to be people that are going to pirate it. We would need more data to understand if the piracy rate is inordinately high on this title and be able to responsibly assess that a questionably high price is driving otherwise would-be buyers to pirate. Even ignoring all of that, I don't really like giving people an out to try to justify piracy. I mean, I'm not here to judge. I understand why people do it. But I don't think it's very productive to try to arrive at arbitrary price points over which piracy becomes justifiable.
Having said that, I'll circle back to my usual argument about piracy in that I often think it's largely a distraction. While piracy can certainly affect sales, I think it's a mistake to assume that every torrented copy equals a lost sale. If sales are low but critical perception and piracy rate is sky high, then yeah, you might need to look into how to make the game harder to pirate. But if your actual sales numbers are healthy, I often think it's counterproductive to worry about piracy.
It's a budget like that for a game of this scope that really worries me about Yooka-Laylee/Bloodstained etc.
PC games are expected to be cheap. Quite a few AAA games can be preordered at the $40 price point. That being said, a grand total of less than 2000 seeders/leachers isn't some brutal damage to the game's total sales even if you think every single one was a lost sale. What about the console releases? Maybe this pushes people away from even bringing their games to PC?
there are puzzles that don't take place on screens? i've watched a LOT of footage of this game and have followed it since it was announced and i've not seen an example of a puzzle not being on a virtual screen within the digital world? maybe i missed them?
GlamFM
Banned
What makes the price point un-agreeable for you?
GatticusFinch
Member
And? The point he was trying to claim was that games should be priced on their quality, not on their genre or quantity or being an "indie." Anyone trying to price a game with that logic is a moron.
There's a number the market will bear for certain types of games. $40 for this one probably eclipsed it. If he releases it for $9.99 on iOS, it will probably sell a zillion copies. If he tries to sell it for $40 on iOS, people will laugh.
He made a couple of short tweets lamenting that people are pirating the game. It's hardly him bitching about it and scorching the earth.
Most of this discussion is just run off from the original pricing thread.
BlitzerRadic
Member
lol D3 sold like 6m copies 1st week, 3.5 day one. WOW freebies never counted as sales.
Fact is no PC game has ever come close to D3 in sales and thats because you cant pirate D3.
Already Torn
Banned
Bloodstained has a publisher I think, so money shouldn't be an issue.
ChaosZeroX
Banned
I like how some of the people in the thread are saying that he doesn't lose a sale because someone pirates the game because they had no intention of spending 40 dollars.
Are you really serious? He sure as hell loses a sale.
Wait until the game eventually goes on sale for 20 dollars or whatever and buy it. Support the developer for putting out a great game.
Are you really serious? He sure as hell loses a sale.
Wait until the game eventually goes on sale for 20 dollars or whatever and buy it. Support the developer for putting out a great game.
PlatypusDude
Member
The production values and amount of people/time that were involved in those two games are not close to being comparable.
Diprosalic
Banned
what really annoys me is that people seek for a justification for pirating.
"YOUR GAME IS OVERPRICED SO I PIRATED IT!!"
i don't care if you are pirating but pirating and being mean to the dev about it just makes me angry. i can't even imagine if you spent 8 years making a game and then you have to read this kind of shit.
"YOUR GAME IS OVERPRICED SO I PIRATED IT!!"
i don't care if you are pirating but pirating and being mean to the dev about it just makes me angry. i can't even imagine if you spent 8 years making a game and then you have to read this kind of shit.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Here in Canada I know more of my friends are resorting to pirating because games have become more expensive so I can understand the reasoning that the game is too expensive. I bought it and got bored so I kind of regret buying it for that $40ish price.
Yes. Most puzzles take place on a screen, but even stating it that way drastically understates the degree of interaction you yourself have with the world, and the evolution of your experience as you begin to understand what you're doing, and the degree to which the puzzles interact with the world around you.
The Witness spoilers - as in don't click unless you really want to be spoiled yo:
Clouds, rivers, monuments are a few things I've already found can be solvable line puzzles. The way you naturally find this stuff is kind of remarkable for a game that has next to no tutorials.
Arthr2ShdsJcksn
Banned
I don't think there is any justification for piracy, but I also think that $40 is a ridiculous price point for this game, so I guess I feel bad for him, but I think he's also too greedy.
Before anyone jumps down my throat, I don't think any game is worth $40. I generally (with some rare exceptions) don't pay more than $20 for a AAA game, $10 for an indie.
Before anyone jumps down my throat, I don't think any game is worth $40. I generally (with some rare exceptions) don't pay more than $20 for a AAA game, $10 for an indie.
Fachasaurus
Member
How was this not expected?
It's number one on trending torrent sites? No shit. It's also number one on Steam and like every gaming review site. This would happen to any media that gets extremely high praise in an extremely small amount of timeframe.
For example, when HBO's GoT initially came out, it had a HUGE number of people torrenting the episodes. But not only that, the entire series of all the original eBooks were also number one on torrent sites.
This has very little to do with it being 40 dollars or it being an "indie" title I feel. I think this whole conversation wouldn't have existed if Blow invested in Denuvo, which is so bananas apparently crackers are saying themselves they will be out of business in a few years.
Don't blame piracy for not wanting to trust PC enough to make future games on that platform. Show some intelligence for the platform and understand the tools you have at your disposal.
It's number one on trending torrent sites? No shit. It's also number one on Steam and like every gaming review site. This would happen to any media that gets extremely high praise in an extremely small amount of timeframe.
For example, when HBO's GoT initially came out, it had a HUGE number of people torrenting the episodes. But not only that, the entire series of all the original eBooks were also number one on torrent sites.
This has very little to do with it being 40 dollars or it being an "indie" title I feel. I think this whole conversation wouldn't have existed if Blow invested in Denuvo, which is so bananas apparently crackers are saying themselves they will be out of business in a few years.
Don't blame piracy for not wanting to trust PC enough to make future games on that platform. Show some intelligence for the platform and understand the tools you have at your disposal.
MisterR
Member
Maybe your opinion would be different if you had just poured 8 million dollars and years of your life into making a game? Maybe you'd like to get paid for your work?
entremet
Member
Exactly. The comparison is so off its unreal.
Lanrutcon
Member
I can't imagine spending 8 years making a game and not realising that the market might have issues with your price point.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
My takeaway is that you're just not allowed to bring up piracy as a systematic OR personal problem because people who 'aren't pirates' are still way too goddamn defensive about piracy
ITT: apology championships 2016
ITT: apology championships 2016
Doctor Ironic
Member
I don't think you've actually been paying attention to the mobile market.
MarineMountie
Member
Hating Thieves is a horrible attitude? Ok. They are pieces of shit. Am i supposed to love them?
As it happens, I was a little sceptical about the pricetag; not from an "Indie games shouldn't cost that much" standpoint, though, but from a "I really like adventure games, which means I'm much less forgiving if the puzzle design isn't up to scratch. What I'd forgive for a $10 game I wouldn't forgive at $40" standpoint:
I've been playing The Witness. The quality of the puzzle design, for me, has absolutely justified the pricepoint.
People will always pirate games, but risky games like the witness are especially at risk of piracy because of how unique and unknown they are. The price scares away some people who aren't so sure if they'd enjoy the game, me included. Now I'm not going to do something so extreme as piracy, but there's no way I'm going to buy it at $40 without being completely convinced of the gameplay. A demo could alleviate some of these problems, maybe it would cut some of the piracy a bit too. But risky games, and expensive indie games will always be heavily pirated, at least until they all use denuvo.
Castef
Banned
PC sales seem very good too.
I think those people were talking about the segment of the population who flat out pirate all their media and refuse to pay for shit. It's not a lost sale in that sense because if piracy didn't exist, those people would still not purchase anything and would simply take up a different hobby.
Except every single review for the game says that watching a LP/doing anything other than going in blind will actively detract from your enjoyment of the game. Weird how saying that might put people off, isn't it?
Not saying that Blow has control over what other people are saying--and I largely agree with the notion that going in blind is the best way to experience the game--but that's also by his own design.
Nobody is entitled to play a game for free. Agreed. But if you want to sell a niche product to a wide array of people, you make it as easy for them to get hands-on as possible. Especially when your design is centered around learning how the puzzles work first-hand and repeating what you've seen from another player will only make the game more difficult for you.
I'd have a much easier time recommending The Witness to people if it was cheaper or had some kind of free trial mode because quite simply The Witness isn't for everyone in any capacity. It's a difficult product to recommend at face-value because it's difficult in a way most games simply aren't.
have you ever thought maybe other people aren't greedy, you're just stingy
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Imma need some sources on "99.9 percent of pirates wouldn't buy anyway". Obviously its not a 1:1 correlation to piracy and sales but on its face the claim that nobody would buy it if they couldn't pirate it seems ridiculous
GwyndolinCinder
Member
I'd be more concerned about steam refunds, and the first hour or so of your game is just line puzzles. Pirates are often not lost sales .
Thank you. My head was spinning with all the misunderstanding of my post.
As someone who paid for Braid multiple times, I was never going to pay $40 for The Witness. It's a first person puzzle game. Maybe early previews of the game hurt it too, because all I can remember being shown is a series of pipe mania puzzles on pedestals.
If there were a demo, I'd have definitely tried it out. If there are 667 puzzles, the demo could have a significant chunk of them (20+) and actually hook me for a higher price point if it's actually well made.
I'll wait for it to go on sale or drop in price. I don't pirate games, so I'll be fine with waiting to play this one.
If there were a demo, I'd have definitely tried it out. If there are 667 puzzles, the demo could have a significant chunk of them (20+) and actually hook me for a higher price point if it's actually well made.
I'll wait for it to go on sale or drop in price. I don't pirate games, so I'll be fine with waiting to play this one.
The problem is you need to think less of the screen as the puzzle and more as the input solution. One of the issues I can see with this game is people think you just walk around an island and do screen puzzles that are disconnected from the island itself. It's hard to advertise how unique and interesting these puzzles are without giving away how they work. You also couldn't really do a demo as it would either have to be a completely separate thing or you let them do the intro area which would probably give a terrible impression of how the game really is. These things mixed with a $40 price point and I can see people not wanting to take the plunge. Knowing that its from the Braid dev I knew what to expect and am glad I bought it.
LouisaFerre
Member
But the point is that there's no way of proving that's a lost sale. For example, if someone pirates the game, there's nothing stopping them from buying it for 20 dollars later on, or there's no guarantee that the person was interested enough to ever buy it if piracy was straight up not an option. Of course we have anecdotal evidence for anything, but regardless of whether pirating is wrong or not, the point is that it's not sensible to assume that 2000 pirated copies = 2000 lost sales.
Dreamwriter
Member
Or because they are pirates who want to steal games. As I said, I've known a couple hardcore gamers who once they started pirating bought zero games ever again, despite having well paying jobs.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
As a former pirate who stopped pirating once he could afford games more easily I have to anecdotally to disagree.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
No. I read something that there is a version were you just have a .exe to start the game, for casuals.
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