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[PdotMichael]

He didn't intend to do this... but I 100% am okay with this. Treating Taiwan like shit to appease a country that needs us as much as China is silly.

WAAAAY down the list of dumb Trump stuff IMO.

Only that isn't helping Taiwan at all.

China is by far the most important trading partner of Taiwan + all the cultural ties. It's a poor attempt of playing geopolitics with Taiwan as potential casualty.

 

[Arkam]

I have a hard time believing that this call would sour the US relationship with China more than the recent and repeated provocations in the south china sea.

 

[Davilmar]

So are you admitting that you believe Taiwan is an independent nation or...? Because it really sounds up me like most of you do, but think we should act in a way that in my opinion is incompatible with our beliefs on international sovereignty

So just admit that. That when it's inconvenient to recognize an obviously independent nation, we shouldn't.

Let's be honest here. The United States and other nations in the web of geopolitics rarely follow every tenet of their beliefs. We consider ourselves a constitutional republic, but have agreements to have "black sites" in sovereign nations. On top of having predator drones that kill both enemy targets and civilians, on top of a massive metadata file collection on our own citizens. I don't even want to get started on the U.S. preaching human rights, but then ignore the International Criminal Court. Politics ain't often black vs. white issues, and that is the crux of the point that I am making. What I personally believe doesn't matter much. The appearance of humiliation and saving face is important to China. The reality is, the United States booted Taiwan to recognize a communist nation as the "official" China at the United Nations. We past the point of not having "incompatible" beliefs a LONG time ago. China seems to be handling it diplomatically, but making overtures like this can be reckless and have unforeseen consequences. Taiwan and China would much rather prefer having the status quo of stability, and not embarrassing one another.

 

[maxiell]

I find the depiction of China's potential reaction to this by various observers in the media bizarre. There is this weird tendency to reduce Chinese behavior and motives to an emotional aspect that you don't often see when the same people characterize the foreign policy of other countries. Maybe China uses this to their advantage somehow, but it seems overly simplistic.

 

[GoutPatrol]

Only that isn't helping Taiwan at all.

China is by far the most important trading partner of Taiwan + all the cultural ties. It's a poor attempt of playing geopolitics with Taiwan as potential casualty.

And there alot of people here that are against that. That was the main reason the KMT was finally pushed out of power in the Pres + Legislature this year. Everyone blames them for selling out the country for the China money.

 

[Theonik]

And there alot of people here that are against that. That was the main reason the KMT was finally pushed out of power in the Pres + Legislature this year. Everyone blames them for selling out the country for the China money.

Which is kinda silly. Geography alone dictates that China will always be Taiwan's biggest trading partner whether they like it or not, and hostility towards China is bad for Taiwan.

 

[chadskin]

Asked @MeetThePress if call was a challenge to China, Pence: "No, this was a courtesy call to the democratically-elected leader of Taiwan."

https://twitter.com/vaughnhillyard/status/805415778619101184

Contradicts what Trump tweeted.

correction edit: 'of the democratically-elected leader', not 'to the democratically-elected leader' apparently

 

[dramatis]

The Atlantic published a pretty nice 'primer' article detailing and explaining the history behind these policies and why Trump committed a faux pas.

So, Why Can't You Call Taiwan?

Why would Trump not speak with Tsai? Here’s where the strangeness starts. The U.S. maintains a strong “unofficial” relationship with Taiwan, including providing it with “defensive” weapons, while also refusing to recognize its independence and pressuring Taiwanese leaders not to upset a fragile but functional status quo. It’s the sort of fiction that is obvious to all involved, but on which diplomacy is built: All parties agree to believe in the fiction for the sake of getting along.

Officially, this has also been the policy of Taiwan for almost a quarter century. Under the 1992 Consensus, another artful diplomatic fiction, both Taipei and Beijing agreed that there was only one China and agreed to disagree on which was legitimate, as well as maintaining two separate systems. During the Bush years, the U.S. said it would defend Taiwan in an attack, but Bush also pushed back on Taiwanese moves toward independence.

Despite recognizing the PRC, the U.S. has kept close ties with Taiwan since 1979. The State Department notes that “Taiwan is the United States’ ninth largest trading partner, and the United States is Taiwan’s second largest trading partner.” More importantly, the U.S. has sold some $46 billion in arms to Taiwan since 1990, which are intended as defensive. Last December, the Obama administration sold $1.8 billion in anti-tank missiles, warships, and other materiel to Taipei. Of course, the “defensive” purpose to all of this is against China, the most plausible aggressor against Taiwan. Naturally, the arms sales have consistently annoyed the Chinese. (Recently, China has been on a campaign of land-grabbing and saber-rattling across the South China Sea, trying to assert greater control and influence.)

“The Chinese leadership will see this as a highly provocative action, of historic proportions,” Evan Medeiros, former Asia director at the White House National Security Council, told the FT. “Regardless if it was deliberate or accidental, this phone call will fundamentally change China’s perceptions of Trump’s strategic intentions for the negative. With this kind of move, Trump is setting a foundation of enduring mistrust and strategic competition for U.S.-China relations.”

 

[Dai Kaiju]

Sorry if I missed it but what was Trump's response to all the outrage?

 

[Dr. Malik]

Sorry if I missed it but what was Trump's response to all the outrage?

Check his Twitter

 

[obijkenobi]

Sorry if I missed it but what was Trump's response to all the outrage?

To double down, of course

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 3h3 hours ago
Did China ask us if it was OK to devalue their currency (making it hard for our companies to compete), heavily tax our products going into..

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 3h3 hours ago
their country (the U.S. doesn't tax them) or to build a massive military complex in the middle of the South China Sea? I don't think so!

 

[bbjvc]

No, that's not the reality for China.

You don't actually understand anything. What you are failing to do is approach this incident from a Chinese perspective. Instead you are imposing your foreign standards and notions on the country without considering its viewpoint. They don't care if their actions are justified or not in your eyes; they have their own interests. I am not offering a defense of China; I am offering an understanding. Your insistence on imposing your own values is exemplary of disrespect towards another nation simply because they do not follow your personal opinions to a tee. That's actually quite imperialistic.

If you were the US leader, would you choose to recognize Taiwan officially with the chance of China invading and occupying Taiwan by force? Thereby triggering a defense treaty that has the US going to war with China? How many lives are you willing to gamble with that China will do nothing? Twenty million lives of the Taiwanese? How many soldiers of the US military? What if they extend that aggression to other countries in the Pacific?

With regards to the international stage, you are wrong. There are no higher principles and morals because there is no single authority to enforce them. You can conduct yourself with your own ideology, but the reality is every country has its own interests and act on those interests. Short of conquering the whole world to impose your ideology, you are not going to be able to enforce your ideology 100%. That is reality. You're in idealistic dreamland. Because you simply cannot stand up in the international theater expect everyone to adhere to your values and morals. They'll laugh at you.

People make a giant shit about interventions in the Middle East, but turn around and say this crap about China because they are so sure of economic ties. It's incredibly naive.

It's more than just 'face' tho, if it's just about 'losing face' then it's not a big deal, even for China, but Taiwan is much more than that.

One-China policy is the corner stone of China's foreign policy, it's the number one rule of the 'ULA' for any country to enter a diplomatic relationship with China,not agree means no diplomatic relationship, they stick to this rule even back when they are the desperate one for recognition from other countries, there's absolutely no chance to back down on this now.

My understanding is maintain China's unity is one of the most important pillar, if not the most import one, for CCP to have the authority and legitimacy to rule, so inability to react in a hypocritical Taiwan independence means CCP losing the legitimacy to rule, so if hypocritical speaking, Taiwan announce independence today, I have no doubt China will invade, because it's the only logic reaction for the CCP to be able to keep their rule, no mater how in-prepared or unwilling the CCP leaders actually are.

 

[chadskin]

Trump’s Taiwan phone call was long planned, say people who were involved

Donald Trump’s protocol-breaking telephone call with Taiwan’s leader was an intentionally provocative move that establishes the incoming president as a break with the past, according to interviews with people involved in the planning.

Trump and his advisers have sought to publicly portray the call the president-elect took from Taiwan President Tsai Ing-wen Friday as a routine congratulatory call. Trump noted on Twitter that she placed the call.

It was planned weeks ahead by staffers and Taiwan specialists on both sides, according to people familiar with the plans.

Immediately after Trump won the Nov. 8 election, his staff compiled a list of foreign leaders with whom to arrange calls. “Very early on, Taiwan was on that list,” said Stephen Yates, a national security official during the presidency of George W. Bush and an expert on China and Taiwan. “Once the call was scheduled, I was told that there was a briefing for President-elect Trump. They knew that there would be reaction and potential blowback.”

Alex Huang, a spokesman for Tsai, told the Reuters news agency, “Of course both sides agreed ahead of time before making contact.”

Tsai’s office said she had told Trump during the phone call that she hoped the United States “would continue to support more opportunities for Taiwan to participate in international issues.”

 

[SpaceCadetKeon]

Trump’s Taiwan phone call was long planned, say people who were involved

Wonderful...

 

[PdotMichael]

Wonderful...

A long conflict with China is what many people on GAF want after all.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Check his Twitter

Did China ask us if it was OK to devalue their currency (making it hard for our companies to compete), heavily tax our products going into.

their country (the U.S. doesn't tax them) or to build a massive military complex in the middle of the South China Sea? I don't think so!

Twitter is so cool, it's like being the fly on the wall in the oval office.

This new twitter comments sure will appeace China.

 

[Shiggy]

Trump’s Taiwan phone call was long planned, say people who were involved

Even though it's Trump, it'd be cynical for those living in Taiwan to say this is a bad thing. Looking at HK, they have a lot to lose if there's no support from the international community.

 

[How About No]

Trump’s Taiwan phone call was long planned, say people who were involved

Some critics portrayed the move as the thoughtless blundering of a foreign policy novice, but other experts said it appeared calculated to signal a new, robust approach to relations with China.

China reacted sternly to the Taiwan call, suggesting that it shows Trump’s inexperience.

"Now everyone thinks I'm a diplomatic moron! Well HA! Joke's on them!!!"

 

[Balphon]

Trump’s Taiwan phone call was long planned, say people who were involved

Huh. Then why soft pedal it in the spin?

Either Trump got duped by his own advisers or he's so allergic to criticism that he literally can't stay the course on anything controversial for more than a few hours.

EDIT: I suppose I shouldn't discount the possibility that the folks quoted in the article are, you know, lying.

 

[yanipheonu]

To double down, of course

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 3h3 hours ago
Did China ask us if it was OK to devalue their currency (making it hard for our companies to compete), heavily tax our products going into..

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 3h3 hours ago
their country (the U.S. doesn't tax them) or to build a massive military complex in the middle of the South China Sea? I don't think so!

I love that he's still playing the anti establishment card.

Dude, you're president elect. Soon you'll be "The Man". The card won't work much longer.

 

[tuxfool]

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 3h3 hours ago
their country (the U.S. doesn't tax them) or to build a massive military complex in the middle of the South China Sea? I don't think so!

I love that he is complaining about a military industrial complex, when he is in charge of the largest in the world and actively campaigned on increasing it.

 

[drawkcaB]

I love that he is complaining about a military industrial complex, when he is in charge of the largest in the world and actively campaigned on increasing it.

Fairly sure he means the actual, physical military complex on the artificial island China built.

 

[epmode]

New York Times: Bob Dole Worked Behind the Scene on Trump-Taiwan Call

WASHINGTON — Former Senator Bob Dole, acting as a foreign agent for the government of Taiwan, worked behind the scenes over the past six months to establish high-level contact between Taiwanese officials and President-elect Donald J. Trump’s staff, an outreach effort that culminated last week in an unorthodox telephone call between Mr. Trump and Taiwan’s president.

Mr. Dole, a lobbyist with the Washington law firm Alston & Bird, coordinated with Mr. Trump’s campaign and the transition team to set up a series of meetings between Mr. Trump’s advisers and officials in Taiwan, according to disclosure documents filed last week with the Justice Department. Mr. Dole also assisted in successful efforts by Taiwan to include language favorable to it in the Republican Party platform, according to the documents.

Mr. Dole’s firm received $140,000 from May to October for the work, the forms said.

The disclosures suggest that President-elect Trump’s decision to take a call from the president of Taiwan, Tsai Ing-wen, was less a ham-handed diplomatic gaffe and more the result of a well-orchestrated plan by Taiwan to use the election of a new president to deepen its relationship with the United States — with an assist from a seasoned lobbyist well versed in the machinery of Washington.

 

[bob_arctor]

New York Times: Bob Dole Worked Behind the Scene on Trump-Taiwan Call

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

New York Times: Bob Dole Worked Behind the Scene on Trump-Taiwan Call

"Bob Dole Worked Behind the Scene on Trump-Taiwan Call" - Bob Dole

 

[radios shipping overview]

I had a feeling there was more to this and that it was more planned than it seemed. But of course Trump would act like it happened spontaneously because Tsai wanted to be nice to him.

 

[chadskin]

New York Times: Bob Dole Worked Behind the Scene on Trump-Taiwan Call

Drain the swamp, baby.

 

[Chumly]

Trump’s Taiwan phone call was long planned, say people who were involved

Drain the swamp!!!!

 

[lupinko]

The Simpsons continue to have done it.

 

[Jonm1010]

"Now everyone thinks I'm a diplomatic moron! Well HA! Joke's on them!!!"

After reading that article, and the Foreign Policy article linked, I am still not understanding how this Taiwan call achieves any of the stated goals articulated by Trump advisors that are calling this part of their strategic plan in the Asian-Pacific or China? Seems like they are trying to spin corruption and incompetence into vision and strategy.

Trump's advisors articulate they are seeking "stability, prosperity, and security." Reducing, reversing or walling off China's military growth. How this can be construed to achieve that is beyond me? Even within the realm of their own assumptions:

They seem to be all but abandoning long held bi-partisan tenants that say intertwined economic relationships hedge against confrontation. Including ignoring that key distinction in comparing Reagan and Russia to America and present-day China. But used to justify harsher rhetoric, policies of economic harm/decoupling and military escalation that includes pressuring other allies to ramp up along with us. Which creates a powder keg in Chinese domestic politics. The only way this strategy achieves those aims is if China cowers and blinks. Otherwise this just comes off like a deformed mutation of Bush's doctrine of pre-emption that will just achieve the opposite of the stated goals. But even if that is the case, why would they want to so clearly signal their intent and with such reckless handling? Including kicking away an olive branch China tried to throw out and forcing China into a situation they almost have to respond in similar escalation.