"boring Marlowe" confronts Nate about his past and is part of the biggest growth his character went through in the series. Rafe is...
jealous of him. He adds absolutely nothing to Drake's character. Nadine is even worse, she does nothing of significance in the entire game and literally walks out on it.
Gonna have to disagree there; saying Rafe is just "jealous" of him is underselling everything ND tried to illustrate through him. Both Rafe and Sam were reflections of Nate's past, tying both into their lust for the thrill and glory of the adventure, as well as the theme of family and legacy running through UC4. Rafe's obsession with the drake brothers was one of the better told aspects of the game.
An angry Sam probably makes more sense in the context of the story but it's not like what we got was bad. I still would love to see the old script though.
Gonna have to disagree there; saying Rafe is just "jealous" of him is underselling everything ND tried to illustrate through him. Both Rafe and Sam were reflections of Nate's past, tying both into their lust for the thrill and glory of the adventure, as well as the theme of legacy running through UC4. Rafe's obsession with the drake brothers was one of the better told aspects of the game.
Sam i understand, but Rafe is as generic of a villain as you can get. At least Nadine had the sense to bail out. Rafe acts like an idiot and gets himself killed.
Could have been interesting though, I'm not really diggin that voice though. I know people who are brothers have different voices but I dunno, just not what I would imagine Nate's brother to sound like, even after playing U4.
That's really the direction I was expecting the story to go. Both of them wanted to be treasure hunters but Sam got stuck in prison while Drake went on to have this fabulous, successful adventuring life. And now that Sam is out Nate decides he's above it all? It would have been so easy for him to call Drake out on it. Of course he'd be "done", he already got his fun, but what's left for Sam? It would have mirrored Rafe's motivation as well, being jealous of Drake's success because money can't replace talent.
There are still some shades of this left in there but it's not nearly as pronounced in the final game, and It's spun to be much more of Sam wanting to do it to prove something to himself rather than get one over on his brother.
Yep. I wish they went a bit further with the whole "Of course you're done with it, you've found three legendary cities while I was rotting in jail. Let me have this one". I still really liked the story but it felt like Uncharted's Greatest Hits.
Also a great line from the final boss battle,
where Rafe mentions killing a guy who was talking about all of these great things Nate did.
Sam i understand, but Rafe is as generic of a villain as you can get. At least Nadine had the sense to bail out. Rafe acts like an idiot and gets himself killed.
Characters like Rafe certainly have been told in better stories before, but to say he is generic and an idiot is still underselling ND. There is quite a bit you can read into him, so much so I'm just glossing over the main points of what I gathered. The guy had a massive inferiority complex about his inheritance and people's perception of it; throughout the game you keep seeing the heroes and even his own allies dismiss him as a silver spoon prick. The guy didn't need wealth; he wanted the legacy and greatness of earning the treasure. He wants to live the the adventure. That's why you keep seeing the weird roundabout ways he does things, like not wanting to blow up the cathedral, and playing around with outwitting Nate in King's Bay. He refused to let go of this for 15 years while Nate went and made his own life. At the end, when Nadine just wanted to make off with the treasure and Nate wanted to get Sam out, both of them were more obsessed with the idea of beating each other to the find, mirroring Nathan in UC3. In no small part due to Sam and Nate, he descents into psychosis in wanting to prove himself deserving of the greatness of finding the treasure, to make it his own legacy, attacking the 'undeserving' Nate who let go of everything.
Oh my, are we comparing UC3 narrative to UC4 here in the ring?
Both games have strokes of excellence and nuanced characterization, yes, even the 3rd one.
The thing is that they just do it very differently. Thus, what looks good to another might look bad to one on the other side, and vice versa, because when you think about it, all it really just comes down to is, "Which style of storytelling do you prefer?"
This doesn't mean, however, that the stories can't be compared in terms of quality, either, because they can; but it's easy to think you're arguing for the sake of that, when in reality it's by a rift in taste.
UC3 took a significantly more interesting approach with Drake because it tackled the concept of self-worth, specially in relation to Drake's origin. We witnessed a character that was largely cast aside and ignored by every person who had ever crossed paths with him, resulting in someone who had to largely assume another identity to exist. I don't know why people on GAF were always clamoring for more about Drake's past, perhaps the same people who needed a paternity test for Luke/Vader...
The whole point of UC3's narrative was to highlight the fact that it doesn't matter who you, but instead who you have the option of becoming. Narratively speaking it looked at the concept of Legacy, those that we choose and those that choose us. That's why throwing away the ring was a watershed moment for the character. He came from nothing, rewrote his past by adopting a romantic origin, and then accepted that the man he is, being Nathan, and not Drake, was his identity.
Uncharted 4 on the other hand found the characters
assuming the name of Drake out of a "witness protection" need
that negates any complexity that its predecessor had implied towards the sense of identity. Not to mention that Sam didn't exist before this game, and narratively speaking there are really no story crevices that allow for a character with such meaning to exist in retrospect. It makes no sense for Drake to know his brother
while in the orphanage, have him leave, but still regularly exist in his life, even after he had met Sully. I just don't buy that his death had such a lasting impact on Drake when there was never any unexplained behavior that would react to loss.
Uncharted 4 is mechanically the best, it's the longest, and one could argue has the best pacing in the series(despite the consistent UC2/TLoU approach to "See that over there? Let's take X amount of filler chapters just getting there." But in the story department it is lacking and frankly disappointing given what has come before.
Edit: Mostly in relation to what had come before. Don't get me wrong, the writing is still fantastic and there are some amazing character moments. I just wish they hadn't done what they had done with Drake's character.
The more I rewatch that teaser, the more I like the concept of a bitter, vindictive Sam. It'd be a hell of a thing to be able to see the two versions of the story and compare what works and what doesn't between them.
The more I rewatch that teaser, the more I like the concept of a bitter, vindictive Sam. It'd be a hell of a thing to be able to see the two versions of the story and compare what works and what doesn't between them.
I'm right there with you. Uncharted 4 is certainly more nuanced and has more varied environments, but it'd be nice to've had something a little different, tonally.
I thought Uncharted 3 capped the series so nicely. It explored relationships and provided equal parts mystery as it did answers. Uncharted 4 elucidates way, way too much. Otherwise it's very much Uncharted 3-2, with worse multiplayer.
Gonna have to disagree there; saying Rafe is just "jealous" of him is underselling everything ND tried to illustrate through him. Both Rafe and Sam were reflections of Nate's past, tying both into their lust for the thrill and glory of the adventure, as well as the theme of family and legacy running through UC4. Rafe's obsession with the drake brothers was one of the better told aspects of the game.
You're giving Rafe too much credit and ND to a lesser extent. Warning MAJOR spoilers.
Rafe 100% says he hates Nate and is full on jealous. He mentions he was sick of hearing Nathan Drake this and that. He's basically bitter that he's wasted 15 years of his life looking for one thing and Nate goes off and finds 3 other massive things in that time span, then pops back to this Avery thing and solves it in the span of a few months as well. Rafe is literally just jelly. The only thing Drake has that he wants is a personal legacy. Rafe makes it clear he doesn't want to ride the legacy of his parents like most trust fund brats. He doesn't need the money he wants the glory. I'll give you Sam as a reflection of Nate's past. Sam represents loss and pain and a lineage not worth keeping. I'd say Nate is jealous of Rafe because Rafe has a true legacy and legitimacy to boot. Nate's accomplishments are all lies. He isn't a Drake, he is a Morgan and honestly he doesn't want to be that. That's why he feels guilt for Sam. Some part of him was happy Sam was gone after the initial shock. Aside from Sam who else knew who he really was? He truly had a fresh start. He had no reminders of a painful past. This is obvious by the fact he didn't even tell Elena he had a brother. Hell he's still hiding who he really is years later from his own daughter. Sam is basically everything he doesn't want to be. I'd say Rafe's only obsession is with himself. I don't think he cared about the Drake bros. either way, they were just tools. It's just that when it came down to it he'd rather them be dead to preserve his ego. He couldn't go on knowing they were better than him and alive as well. So again 100% jealousy with a tinge of ego.
Uncharted 4 is mechanically the best, it's the longest, and one could argue has the best pacing in the series(despite the consistent UC2/TLoU approach to "See that over there? Let's take X amount of filler chapters just getting there." But in the story department it is lacking and frankly disappointing given what has come before.
It's funny, UC4 is clearly the most nuanced of the series, really nailing the character motivations and developments, the story beats, the pacing, all these things that makes UC4 the best told story of the series.
But UC3, despite messing all that up, was more compelling and more interesting in the story and character department. It just never reached it's potential.
Also UC4 had the worst quips in the series, I guess that was the loss of Hennig's wit.
You're giving Rafe too much credit and ND to a lesser extent. Warning MAJOR spoilers.
Rafe 100% says he hates Nate and is full on jealous. He mentions he was sick of hearing Nathan Drake this and that. He's basically bitter that he's wasted 15 years of his life looking for one thing and Nate goes off and finds 3 other massive things in that time span, then pops back to this Avery thing and solves it in the span of a few months as well. Rafe is literally just jelly. The only thing Drake has that he wants is a personal legacy. Rafe makes it clear he doesn't want to ride the legacy of his parents like most trust fund brats. He doesn't need the money he wants the glory. I'll give you Sam as a reflection of Nate's past. Sam represents loss and pain and a lineage not worth keeping. I'd say Nate is jealous of Rafe because Rafe has a true legacy and legitimacy to boot. Nate's accomplishments are all lies. He isn't a Drake, he is a Morgan and honestly he doesn't want to be that. That's why he feels guilt for Sam. Some part of him was happy Sam was gone after the initial shock. Aside from Sam who else knew who he really was? He truly had a fresh start. He had no reminders of a painful past. This is obvious by the fact he didn't even tell Elena he had a brother. Hell he's still hiding who he really is years later from his own daughter. Sam is basically everything he doesn't want to be. I'd say Rafe's only obsession is with himself. I don't think he cared about the Drake bros. either way, they were just tools. It's just that when it came down to it he'd rather them be dead to preserve his ego. He couldn't go on knowing they were better than him and alive as well. So again 100% jealousy with a tinge of ego.
And it is exactly why I thought Rafe even as a standard archetype was a better villain than the others in Uncharted, because it not only tied into the overarching themes of the story, it paints him as a character in his own right, flaws and all.
I hope one day Jason Schreier or another journalist can get all the juicy deets on what happened. But mainly I wanna know what Hennig's version was like. Major story beats and changes.
It's funny, UC4 is clearly the most nuanced of the series, really nailing the character motivations and developments, the story beats, the pacing, all these things that makes UC4 the best told story of the series.
But UC3, despite messing all that up, was more compelling and more interesting in the story and character department. It just never reached it's potential.
Also UC4 had the worst quips in the series, I guess that was the loss of Hennig's wit.
Uncharted 4 is mechanically the best, it's the longest, and one could argue has the best pacing in the series(despite the consistent UC2/TLoU approach to "See that over there? Let's take X amount of filler chapters just getting there." But in the story department it is lacking and frankly disappointing given what has come before.
I was with you until this. I live for that stuff. It makes the environments feel like real places and gives a tangible sense of progression to your adventure.
Despite not liking how they over explained Drake's childhood (and in particularly contrived, hamfisted ways in chapter 16), I like Sam a lot. The core story, themes, and character relationships are handled exceptionally well in 4, especially with how the treasure plot is woven in and isn't just mostly irrelevant exposition. I think I can buy Sam existing a long after this game. I was worried about it, but after how 3 and 4 expanded and complicated Drake's character and flaws (I mean, he got so wrapped up in telling Sam about his adventures he almost neglected telling him about Elena) I can buy him hiding away his guilt behind his drive to prove himself and fascade of humor. He was protecting himself by never bringing up Sam before. It doesn't mesh totally well with the young Drake flashback in 3, but I can buy that they travel the world together and at that point Sam was likely in prison and Nate on his own for a while.
The biggest thing that makes Sam feel retconned in is that Marlow didn't bring him up in 3. She would absolutely know about him and use that against Drake.
The Drakes look to have grown up around Boston based on the visuals as well as a reference to the Lenox Hotel. Sam being older than Nate before running away would have developed a stronger accent than Nate.
And it is exactly why I thought Rafe even as a standard archetype was a better villain than the others in Uncharted, because it not only tied into the overarching themes of the story, it paints him as a character in his own right, flaws and all.
I think I was writing mine during that time, didn't see yours sorry bout that. I can't call Rafe better but I'd say he's on par with Marlowe and the only reason she doesn't eclipse him is because she severely lacked exposition.
Rafe does too, but because he's such a typical snot nosed bratty trust fund bad guy you can hear him speak once and know his life story. He has the same flaws of every jealous rich kid ever and isn't even executed all that well as a character. He exists solely to flesh out Nate, so I can't even say he is a character in his own right. Without the Nate connection he's just a worse Lazarevic that on top of being one dimensional also lacks presence.
. This doesn't surprise me however because along with boss fights, villains are a ND weakness. The best one they've ever done is David and that only works because he isn't actually a villain. He is just a survivor with a different strategy that the "protagonists" happen to clash with.
Nathan lying to Ella about seeking Avery's treasure
. I saw it immediately for what it was, which was just a setup for some
later betrayal/caught red-handed/plot support
thing. And it felt so out of place for him, as a character.
I still enjoyed UC4 a lot and am currently running through it a second time. I'll certainly revisit again later, as I have with all of the other Uncharted games, since I love the franchise so.
The best one they've ever done is David and that only works because he isn't actually a villain. He is just a survivor with a different strategy that the "protagonists" happen to clash with.
I totally bought that he would do that. After the past two games he would definitely be afraid of losing Elena by giving in for his desire for adventure again.
The best one they've ever done is David and that only works because he isn't actually a villain. He is just a survivor with a different strategy that the "protagonists" happen to clash with.
He is totally a villain. He's a child raping cannibal lol. Goes totally psycho in the end. He's great though and he does have some shades of grey to add a little nuance, but they made him very unambiguously evil by the end.
Is anyone surprised that Hennig didn't get some kind of "Story By..." credit? I get that it isn't the WGA but if this was Hollywood then there are clearly enough details carried forward that she would have probably at least been credited for story and maybe even screenplay.
Yeah I was surprised she wasn't credited at all for being involved in the writing process, because it appears that she did have a hand in conceiving the brother plot element, at least.
Yeah I was surprised she wasn't credited at all for being involved in the writing process, because it appears that she did have a hand in conceiving the brother plot element, at least.
If videogame screenwriting is anything like the film industry, that wouldn't be enough to give her credit. I think in the film industry, if over 50% of a screenplay is changed, credit to the original writer isn't required.
I'd love for someone to follow up with him now that the game is out. I wonder if either of them are having any doubts after seeing the success of the game.
Is anyone surprised that Hennig didn't get some kind of "Story By..." credit? I get that it isn't the WGA but if this was Hollywood then there are clearly enough details carried forward that she would have probably at least been credited for story and maybe even screenplay.
If you watch through the credits, she gets her own special thanks for her contributions to the franchise page. Like, her name is the only one on that screen. Not shoved in a slew of other credits thats easily missed. So it's not like they're completely throwing her under the bus or anything.
I have my minor gripes with the plot in this game, but they are incredibly unimportant compared to U3's massive disconnected plot progression and set pieces. And I have to agree this definitely is a more matured story, and what they do with it is quite good. I'm not convinced that the previous version of the story would have been as good as this one because Uncharted 3 was a hot mess in that department for me.
I think that version of the plot could have been interesting, but I like what we got also (though I'm only about halfway through the game).
I will say that I don't like that voice actor in that trailer. Not that his voice is inherently bad, it sounds pretty awesome, but it's just not how I'd picture Nathan Drake's brother to sound at all. Think Troy Baker was awesome.
If you watch through the credits, she gets her own special thanks for her contributions to the franchise page. Like, her name is the only one on that screen. Not shoved in a slew of other credits thats easily missed. So it's not like they're completely throwing her under the bus or anything.
I have my minor gripes with the plot in this game, but they are incredibly unimportant compared to U3's massive disconnected plot progression and set pieces. And I have to agree this definitely is a more matured story, and what they do with it is quite good. I'm not convinced that the previous version of the story would have been as good as this one because Uncharted 3 was a hot mess in that department for me.
I was with you until this. I live for that stuff. It makes the environments feel like real places and gives a tangible sense of progression to your adventure.
To me that's just the text book definition of filler. It's literally, "we don't have anything else significant to the plot for you to do, so just go here." Frankly another reason I prefer Uncharted 3 is the fact that there is very, very little(maybe non at all) of that delegation. Everything you're doing seems to have a point to it. The Former is a very old approach and I have never really been a fan of it.
Despite not liking how they over explained Drake's childhood (and in particularly contrived, hamfisted ways in chapter 16), I like Sam a lot. The core story, themes, and character relationships are handled exceptionally well in 4, especially with how the treasure plot is woven in and isn't just mostly irrelevant exposition. I think I can buy Sam existing a long after this game. I was worried about it, but after how 3 and 4 expanded and complicated Drake's character and flaws (I mean, he got so wrapped up in telling Sam about his adventures he almost neglected telling him about Elena) I can buy him hiding away his guilt behind his drive to prove himself and facade of humor. He was protecting himself by never bringing up Sam before. It doesn't mesh totally well with the young Drake flashback in 3, but I can buy that they travel the world together and at that point Sam was likely in prison and Nate on his own for a while.
I got what they were doing, and I respected it, I just don't think it succeeded all to well. I think Sam would have been more compelling if he wasn't a
Blood Brother
to Drake. I was kind of hoping that they would set Sam up as being
another orphan who came from the same orphanage as Drake and really adopted him, as well as the Drake Legacy as his own; kind of the "Brother that he Picked
." That way we could have had someone also obsessed with an idea and
Drake's new found revelations that he reached in UC3 would have made him a better counter.
As it stands though, having finished it all the way through, I really don't know what Sam's point is in being in the sory. His
life wasn't really threatened
and, given that Drake constantly defers back to him for guidance it's clear that Sam didn't need his brother to get the treasure. But if you look at the reverse and assume that Sam came back really for Drake and not simply Drake's help it doesn't make much sense either,
given that he never really stresses a fondness for his brother and ditches him to get the treasure during the 3rd act.
The whole relationship, as well as the reasoning behind their pairing just seems forced and artifical. Not only did Sam not need Drake, he didn't really want him either.
The biggest thing that makes Sam feel retconned in is that Marlow didn't bring him up in 3. She would absolutely know about him and use that against Drake.
Looking back over the series it's pretty obvious that Sully wasn't originally supposed to be Drake's father figure(given his betrayal in UC1) and really just grew into the role over the course of the series. UC3 does it well and is able to retcon the character and make it work. I just don't see where the series is able to organically afford Drake a brother and make it work though, there was just never a place in Drake's personality that would account for a deceased brother who can work his way back into the story.
I'm sorry, it wouldn't bother me if I just didn't love the characters as much as I do. It would be like Joel having a long lost son who just appears in TLoU 2. There is nothing there to justify it at all for the character.
Looking back over the series it's pretty obvious that Sully wasn't originally supposed to be Drake's father figure(given his betrayal in UC1) and really just grew into the role over the course of the series. UC3 does it well and is able to retcon the character and make it work.
Sully in UC1 is definitely problematic looking back but he never betrayed anyone. Nate doesn't even give a lot of lip service that he even thinks he was betrayed when Elena shows him that Sully is alive. In retrospect the chief problem is that Nate should have been way, way more broken up by Sully's apparent death in Chapter 3.
Honestly UC3 made that situation worse, not better. But I'm cool with that because it's a more interesting dynamic and UC1 was obviously really just a basic sketch where the characters really got by on sheer charisma.
Looking back over the series it's pretty obvious that Sully wasn't originally supposed to be Drake's father figure(given his betrayal in UC1) and really just grew into the role over the course of the series. UC3 does it well and is able to retcon the character and make it work. I just don't see where the series is able to organically afford Drake a brother and make it work though, there was just never a place in Drake's personality that would account for a deceased brother who can work his way back into the story.
I don't see how UC3 does it well at all. UC1 Sully is shot and not a care in the world, but UC3 Sully is shot and he is suddenly get super emotional about it. I don't see how it's organic at all. I don't see how the retconning his feelings toward Sully to suddenly caring a lot is more organic than Drake trying to bury his memories of his brother.
It's really difficult to come to any sort of conclusion without actually knowing the original story and how and why it got changed. I hope we'll one day get a look at the full picture of what exactly happened behind the scenes.
"boring Marlowe" confronts Nate about his past and is part of the biggest growth his character went through in the series. Rafe is...
jealous of him. He adds absolutely nothing to Drake's character. Nadine is even worse, she does nothing of significance in the entire game and literally walks out on it.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of both of these characters and it might do you well to play the game a second time to give yourself a better grasp on their characters and roles in the story.
Marlowe was a great character who was ruined by a narrative that completely underserved her and deprived her of a defined arc or purpose.
As much as I liked a great many things about Uncharted 4's story, and I was quite satisfied with the ending, there are definitely other directions the story could have gone and ultimately explored similar themes perhaps from a different angle.
I am really, really curious as to what the original vision for the story was.
The story in Uncharted 4 doesn't make much sense the more you think about it. The actions of the characters aren't well justified, things just happen and are automatically solved because they had to.
Sam is a good example, he lies to Nate in the beginning, he screws him over in the end and then it's just... "happy ending!". He adds nothing to Drake's character. Even the villain in Uncharted 3 (Marlowe) had more depth than that.
I'm not sure about Uncharted 4 in general but I definitely agree about Sam.
Something just feels off with how all the characters react to him just being a total douchebag. Like, he deliberately got them into that mess, pulled Nate, Elena and Sully into a really shitty situation, doesn't even seem to be overly sorry for it and they're all just like "oh well, water under the bridge"? That definitely bothers me and it bothers me that the story in general was as sympathetic towards Sam as it was. As a player, I was honestly pissed at him and I did not feel like he got the payback he deserved. (Not saying he should have necessarily died or anything but I definitely think he got off way too easy.)
At times, it also did feel like the story couldn't quite decide whether it wanted to stay light-hearted and fun or go down a darker road which means it didn't really do either to its full potential. I suspect this is a result of the mid-development change in direction.
There are actually people that like the UC3 story more than 4? Wow, UC3 had so many loose ends and added background info on Drake while doing absolutely nothing with it. Maybe Henning had a long term plan with it, but we'll never know.
I'm not sure about Uncharted 4 in general but I definitely agree about Sam.
Something just feels off with how all the characters react to him just being a total douchebag. Like, he deliberately got them into that mess, pulled Nate, Elena and Sully into a really shitty situation, doesn't even seem to be overly sorry for it and they're all just like "oh well, water under the bridge"? That definitely bothers me and it bothers me that the story in general was as sympathetic towards Sam as it was. As a player, I was honestly pissed at him and I did not feel like he got the payback he deserved. (Not saying he should have necessarily died or anything but I definitely think he got off way too easy.)
I'm not sure about Uncharted 4 in general but I definitely agree about Sam.
Something just feels off with how all the characters react to him just being a total douchebag. Like, he deliberately got them into that mess, pulled Nate, Elena and Sully into a really shitty situation, doesn't even seem to be overly sorry for it and they're all just like "oh well, water under the bridge"? That definitely bothers me and it bothers me that the story in general was as sympathetic towards Sam as it was. As a player, I was honestly pissed at him and I did not feel like he got the payback he deserved. (Not saying he should have necessarily died or anything but I definitely think he got off way too easy.)
Is his lie to Elena any better? That was the whole point of his "What an asshole line" when he tells Sully about Sam's lie. Nate realizes that he would be a hypocrite if he can't forgive Sam when he is hoping Elena will forgive him. Further Nate also recognizes that Sam is just Nate with 15 years less character development. So he understands exactly why Sam did what he did. He's a uniquely sympathetic audience.
