Because of cost? Or techical issues?
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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
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Because of cost? Or techical issues?
384 bit bus would imply pretty awesome external memory bandwidth. Which would be pretty amazing in combination with eDRAM really.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Wouldn't be surprising if it were on a 384 bit bus since it's going to be based on AMD's current crop of cards. Costs have me thinking 192, but I'm probably wrong.
I wouldn't call 100GB/s bandwidth an awesome bandwidth (with the fastest DDR3 available) considering that Xbox 360 and PS3 have a 20+GB/s bandwidth for the main memory.
Of course embedded memory will help but that won't be available in significant amounts (only 128MB-256MB are feasible in the best case).
Personally I'd prefer a dedicated pool of GDDR5 memory just for the graphics.
No it doesn't.
It implies high bandwidth.
Oh the memory bus.
Okay, my bad, I thought they were doing the dumb thing people used to do of adding core together for marketing.
I just question how much that will negatively effect cost reduction down the line. Makes it hard to believe IMO.
phosphor112
Banned
No. None at all.
While I'm not the biggest on anonymous Chinese rumors, I was thinking about the bolded a bit.Translated chinese comments from an earlier thread [made in November, kudos to N2O from B3D for translating it], and quick recap of the new thread
old chinese thread
-X720 will use HD8XXX
-GPU has a yield problem
-Console will only have one bigass APU
-Console will use 285W of power, most likely thats a number for power supply/ac adapter [it will surely be capped at 60-70% to provide better thermals and reliability, so 170-180W is most likely we will ever see from it].
-Both X720 and PS4 will be powerful
new chinese thread
-confirmation of 8850/8870 architecture in X720
I know this is ps3 thread, but this X720 hw news will most likely play a big role in PS4 hw. Dont forget, nothing is confirmed yet. These are unconfirmed rumors... for now.
Let's take Kotaku's recent story:
Source: http://kotaku.com/5968211/reality-c...-well-have-a-ps4-and-xbox-720-a-year-from-nowKotaku said:
Now let's consider what the 8850 is rumored to be:
Source: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/possible_radeon_hd_8870_and_8850_specs_leaked_webMaximum PC said:
Combining those two, I could see how someone could make that general statement if they card is really based on the 8850. I'm not sure about power consumption, but given the rumored consumer price, that doesn't seem like a crazy out of whack unreasonable part to choose as a base.
I apologize if this has already been debated. I haven't read the whole thread admittedly.
pharmboy044
Member
Not sure why we're discussing a nextXbox rumor in a PS4 thread. It's getting a little confusing.
They're fairly heavily rumored to be rather similar in power, so if you have a sense of one, you likely have a sense of the other.
A lot of the sources overlap.
Vol5
Member
The 8850 TDP is believed to be 130W give or take and can run at just under 3Tflops, but it's not in the wild yet, so this talk about yield issues are more than likely correct to some degree.
Giant Panda
Member
That is pretty much bullshit especially GT5 part. PD is like 100-140 people. they sold about 20 mln coppies of their games this gen ( 5,5mln GT5
? I'm not really sure what part of my post you are taking umbridge to. I acknowledged that GT5 was a big seller.
I am going solely off sales figures as a source of data. Nearly all of these games were made in AAA style development (LBP might be an exception), so you know the costs will be large, moreso for games that take a long time. So there are no exact figures but I never gave a figure for Sony software profits, only that you can infer that they probably aren't all that great.
This is kind of off-topic though so if anyone wants to continue this line of discussion it should probably be done somewhere else.
Vol5
Member
Well exactly. Until we see a consumer release, it's all a load of marketing and hype.
pharmboy044
Member
dr_rus
Member
That's the thing. Why go with 384 bit if you have eDRAM for frame buffer access?
Suppose the closest we get to an indication of the performance increase from 7850/70 to 8850/70 are those tahiti 7870's which produce 7950 level performance but have some alarming power efficiency issues at the moment
Indeed. It doesnt make much sense to have a huge amount of bandwidth allowed by the 384bit bus memory and on the top of that some eDram... Either you have a 384bit bus memory and no need for edram or a much weaker bus memory and some edram to compensate low bandwidth.
Water cooling won't happen due to cost and the issues it can introduce
Between zero and one percent.
phosphor112
Banned
zero and zero. =P
ElfArmy177
Member
Holy crap, I was literally just about to ask this exact same question. In reality, why is it not possible? CPU water-cooling adapters are cheap now, and they work very well. I see people saying "0%" but it still seems like its a possiblility.... Could anyone explain?
I understand cost of them being higher.. but if mass produced, wouldnt the cost be affordable? Also, what complications would arise? Most of the ones Ive used or seen are built rather solid, and make the system much less bulky - atleast at a CPU standpoint.
What issues ? Water cooling is less prone to issues than fans. Sure it is harder to assembly but it would give vastly lower temperatures (means no RROD or YLOD) and hardware could have better Mhz which is important for new hardware also complete noise reduction from fans (because there are no fans)
For mass scale producing factory it would be dirt cheap. And if factory can produce cars i don't see problem with using it to assembly water cooled consoles.
Or is it that most of people think that Liquid cooling is something superbly hard to do and costly ? Things changed a lot since 2000. Ypu can buy water cooling for cheap and it is easy to install.
iceatcs
Junior Member
Eh. I though you still need the fan for watercooling.
And of course you can ease to install because nowadays you can get ready-made kit. Old time you got to built with bits. So no matter which's way but you have to assemble it from stratch because it is how it made first place. Lol
There is no such of thing watercooling can be made without assemble in the factory.
And of course you can ease to install because nowadays you can get ready-made kit. Old time you got to built with bits. So no matter which's way but you have to assemble it from stratch because it is how it made first place. Lol
There is no such of thing watercooling can be made without assemble in the factory.
mostly yes but because of nature of liquid cooling it don't need to be big and noisy. If they will go with lower MHz simple radiator will do.
iceatcs
Junior Member
You need factory to assemble for special customise water cooling for consule. It can't be grow itself. Is it not plant or is it?
Ok sound. MS got no execuse for not using it on next box.
Of course it has to be manufactured and assembled... but it could be done relativley cheaply.
I still say it wont happen.
Most of what we have on market are for normal open PCs which can be very different. Consoles being closed single type platform could really alter how cooling in such system works and it would be more effective.
I also think it won't happen btw not because of cost and problems but because no one thought about it in proper way.
dr_rus
Member
While this is true there is also a matter of cost. eDRAM is a way to save bandwidth and go with narrower external bus. Having both eDRAM and an expensive wider memory bus is highly unlikely for a system built to be as cost effective as possible.
To fully understand this, we'd need to know the approximate percentages of bandwidth usage that modern engines use. Eg if they are heavily doing work that could sit in edram then you wouldn't need such a fast bus to external ram.
jeff_rigby
Banned
If you have a wide IO memory buss with traditional Console clock speeds for memory then you have 200 - 1Tbytes/sec bandwidth and don't need eDRAM.
WideIO memory is a game changer and we may see an elimination of L3 as well as faster/wider GPU registers and less likely Jaguar L2 to main memory. Remember HSA and Zero copy tries to move code and data in memory as little as possible and when memory has to be moved, do it as energy efficiently as possible which would also be via a wider buss or registers.
It is the opinion of multiple professionals that WideIO memory is coming to the PS4 with stacked memory on transposer connected to CPU/GPU and possibly (my opinion) a second GPU on the same transposer.
The transposer/MCM will be huge and result in a $20 cost (guess). These huge transposers may have already been manufactured with Charlie's (SemiAccurate) Oban rumor Dec 2011. Oban can be a large blank Japanese gold coin with bumps on it. 3D assembly eliminates the tranposer needed in 2.5D resulting in a savings and is a 2014 or later technology for hotter chips like in a game console.
The huge transposer/MCM including 2-4 gig of stacked wide IO memory (512 bit speculated) will result in a simpler PS4 motherboard and savings there.
Yeah, but I think they meant the HD 7970 instead of 670... also the source is ridiculous. That table is not realistic at all... (this thought is commonly shared
)
iceatcs
Junior Member
Same with PS3 too. It isn't water but nitrogen I believe.
I think you mean heatpipes right? It's not exactly the same thing as a water loop, but the principal is pretty similar.
I know closed loops are becoming more reliable and cheaper nowadays, but I don't think it's worth the risk factor. I know there is no difference between an RROD and a radiator or tube that starts leaking since in both cases you end up with a dead machine.
A well designed cooling system with heatpipes and heatsinks should be more than enough.
They will use standard vapor chambers, ps3fat awesome fan design and hope for the best.
That is very ambitious [to put it mildly]. I dont think it will happen, maybe after few redesigns and chip shrinkages.
That is very ambitious [to put it mildly]. I dont think it will happen, maybe after few redesigns and chip shrinkages.
If nextbox and PS4 are very similar then it will be PS4 and maybe wiiu only for me next gen.
I just prefer Sony exclusives so much more and the only reason I have xbox360 is for better multi plats and halo. Halo 4 is a disaster in my eyes and I've no interest in finishing the story anymore and if the new consoles are close then multi plats shouldn't be an issue anymore. Although I expect the usual money bating exclusive DLC but I've learned a valuable lesson this gen, that everything arrives eventually.
I just prefer Sony exclusives so much more and the only reason I have xbox360 is for better multi plats and halo. Halo 4 is a disaster in my eyes and I've no interest in finishing the story anymore and if the new consoles are close then multi plats shouldn't be an issue anymore. Although I expect the usual money bating exclusive DLC but I've learned a valuable lesson this gen, that everything arrives eventually.
Pretty sure that rumor was in reference to a direct download of new games. Like the PS3 and Vita are doing now.