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[120v]

as somebody who lost 50 lbs consuming 2+ bowls of white rice every day, and then switched over to keto when a bit of the weight started creeping back, i feel like carbs aren't the devil *but* the caveat is you have to be willing to work out A LOT. when i was consuming carbs i'd was doing interval training nearly every day. with keto i can maintain my weight working out half as much

so it boils down to what kind of trade off you're willing to make. i decided spending an hour on the treadmill every day really wasn't for me so as much as i love carbs it was a sacrifice i'd be willing to take

 

[Korey]

Gaf has a MASSIVE diet soda defense force (even though that shit is literally poison); was about to warn the guy about that, but it seems I was too late.

Citation needed.

How is diet soda "literally poison." Link us to one study that says it's bad for you.

Nobody's found anything wrong with diet soda. I'd hardly call something like that "literally poison."

 

[God Dayumm]

Might as well look up the Voodoo diet while he's at it.



Do you have scientific training? Not every publication is equal.



No, your brain uses glucose. Glycogen and glucose are both carbohydrates.

There is no evidence that your brain "functions better" on ketone bodies. I find it surprising you say you've read up on it when you don't even know the difference between glycogen and glucose, and think that glycogen isn't a carbohydrate. 15 year olds in biology class know that.

I think he was refrerring to gluconeogenesis. The body can make glucose (a carb) from non-carb sources, so you can do without them. I do question the body functions better having to this process all the time, but it functions

Citation needed.

How is diet soda "literally poison." Link us to one study that says it's bad for you.

Nobody's found anything wrong with diet soda. I'd hardly call something like that "literally poison."

It damages gut flora, is acidic and can cause slight dehydration, that's it. Big deal, so does sugar but a magnitude worse, plus sugar rots the teeth and the esophagus, causes mental illness, cancer, premature aging, hypertension, kidney, liver and heart failures. Fun fact: diabetes might the only disease not actually caused by sugar but it certainly makes it worse.

Diet soda is not healthy like water, but to imply it is near the same league as regular soda is dishonest and misleading. It is not a defense force to recommend some diet soda or diet juice to satisfy a sweet tooth instead of a having a full sugary treat

 

[borborygmus]

Eating carbs from whole food sources is much healthier than eating things with added pure sugar, for a plethora of reasons that are really hard to get into. There's like dozens of little reasons that are backed by studies, but those studies tend to be narrow and focus on specific foods (e.g. phytonutrients and specific vitamins in food X make it good for diabetes despite it being high in carbs). All these little things add up.

So it's really hard to pinpoint one specific thing which backs up your point, OP. But you're right, the fear of "carbs" in general is a bit misguided.

 

[AndrewPL]

Never look up the traditional Japanese diet if you believe all this.

I'm not sure what you are saying? Did peasants and farmers have access to a huge proportion of rice, meat and veges? Or was it the land owners that would reap the benefits of the farmers and have massive feasts?

When you have to spend months growing wheat and preparing flour and hours baking bread, it's no longer an item of food that you have a large proportion of but instead use it to mop up gravy to not waste it.

 

[KonradLaw]

Because they're wastefull calories. The body doesn't need them to survive (so it's better to use up your calorie limit on fat and protein) and they're still sugar. No matter how much you eat after few hours you will be hungry again.

They're fine when you're not on diet and without them our civilization couldn't survive. But they're just not well suited for a dieting. It's like if you would be trying to cut your lawn with straight razor. Sure, it can be done this way, but it's not the most efficent way there is.

 

[Massive Nights]

Whoooole lot of pseudo-science flying about in this thread. 'Blood Type Diet' is a new one for me though 😂

 

[The Pope]

In terms of unhealthyness
Soda>Diet Soda >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>water

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

What I got out of this thread is that diet soda is ok but fruit is bad

Remember kids, fruit is like sprinkling vitamins into your soda.

 

[triplestation]

Starchy carbs are guh if you eat them with guh things

A roll with a big bowl of stew with tons of vegetables in it is guh for you

A roll with cheese ketchup and greasy meat in it is not guh for you.. but you like that shit and you want fries with it too

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I'm so sick of diet threads. They just get filled with a bunch of armchair scientists who either read crap like food babe et al. or peruse pubmed looking at abstracts and titles that agree with their preconceptions.

Don't forget the anecdotal "I feel so much better and lost tons of weight on <diet> therefore <diet> is objectively superior" horseshit

 

[Zepp Twofist]

As someone who is actively losing weight, I think the fear of starchy carbs comes from the fact that if you suddenly eat a big meal with them after having eaten relatively lean, your weight will either stagnate or go slightly up in a day or two following. They can also make you feel heavy after eating. People extrapolate that to mean that they only make you fat, but it's just your body temporarily adjusting to different foods.

That being said, I stay away from too much of them because they add calories fast and I don't like the bump they can put in my day to day progress even if it evens out over time.

Another thing. I'm reading Penn Jillette's book on his weight loss, and as a "fuck you" to the anti-starch movement, his diet guru has him eating nothing but potatoes for the first two weeks and he still loses a huge amount of weight. I don't condone the way his diet in general worked at all, but I thought it was a funny take on it.

 

[Greddleok]

Don't forget the anecdotal "I feel so much better and lost tons of weight on <diet> therefore <diet> is objectively superior" horseshit

Unfortunately that is everywhere. Any rational person knows that their personal anecdotal finding is so completely flawed that they should just ignore it and read the literature.
Sure anecdotes have their place, but not in discussing what works when there's a ton of unbiased data out there.

It is partly the scientific community's fault. The writing is so technical that it's hard for someone without training to understand what's going on, and what the caveats are in the data. It's also a problem with the schooling system, science is taught like a bunch of facts you need to learn and are true.

 

[SapientWolf]

Because they're wastefull calories. The body doesn't need them to survive (so it's better to use up your calorie limit on fat and protein) and they're still sugar. No matter how much you eat after few hours you will be hungry again.

They're fine when you're not on diet and without them our civilization couldn't survive. But they're just not well suited for a dieting. It's like if you would be trying to cut your lawn with straight razor. Sure, it can be done this way, but it's not the most efficent way there is.

Carbs prevent your body from catabolyzing your muscles after your aerobic workouts. Your muscles will also look depleted without carbs.

In direct studies of resistance trained athletes undergoing calorically restricted high protein diets, low fat interventions that maintain carbohydrate levels [13,29] appear to be more effective at preventing LBM loses than lower carbohydrate, higher fat approaches [32,40].

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4033492/

 

[Zepp Twofist]

In terms of unhealthyness
Soda>Diet Soda >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>water

There should probably be a dozen or so > more between soda and diet soda. The latter doesn't make you fat, regardless of how much people fear content that has unfamiliar names. I'm not endorsing diet soda at all, but it is a hell of a lot healthier if the choice is down to that or regular. Misinformation about the dangers of diet soda is probably being fueled as justification for millions of obese people to chug down 3 liters of sugary water every day.

Water tastes great though. People should just drink that instead.

 

[Cerity]

Carbs prevent your body from catabolyzing your muscles after your aerobic workouts. Your muscles will also look depleted without carbs.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4033492/

The study you've linked doesn't anywhere near state that carbs prevent catabolisis, the entire paragraph you've taken your quote from states that a high carb/protein and low fat might be more effective at lean body mass retention when compared to lower carb higher fat. And even then the line of thinking at that point in the study is looking at adjusting fat intake at the expense of carbs to tweak testosterone levels in order to prevent lean body mass loss. It very much isn't carbs prevent catabolisis.

The study you've linked does actually address ketogenesis/very low carb diets and more or less states that not enough studies have been done to draw any sort of conclusion for athletes/weightlifters.

 

[prag16]

Citation needed.

How is diet soda "literally poison." Link us to one study that says it's bad for you.

Nobody's found anything wrong with diet soda. I'd hardly call something like that "literally poison."

Do you have scientific training? Not every publication is equal.

TIL peer reviewed medical journal sources are great when they support your own argument, but invalid garbage to be dismissed out of hand when they don't.

Thisisneogaf.gif

We're so quick to declare that every debate is indisputable settled (even when numerous peer reviewed journal articles challenge and call imto question many of these notions). I guess it makes is feel smart or something.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

TIL peer reviewed medical journal sources are great when they support your own argument, but invalid garbage to be dismissed out of hand when they don't.

Thisisneogaf.gif

We're so quick to declare that every debate is indisputable settled (even when numerous peer reviewed journal articles challenge and call imto question many of these notions). I guess it makes is feel smart or something.

Do you see the irony in what you just posted?

 

[franbatista123]

Look up the Blood type diet, OP. Some people's bodies are much more responsive to carbs than others.

IIRC that has never been proven.

 

[R10Neymarfan]

Guys just go on Nutritionfacts.org it's apparently the one with correct info

Spoiler

That's what the vegans like to peddle alot

 

[Cheech]

Keto is dumb. I often wonder the long term damage people are doing to their bodies consuming such massive quantities of meat and cheese.

The one idea Keto got right is the idea that foods with carbs tend to be high calorie, but cutting them ALL out is overkill. Calories in, calories out. Everything else is noise. The only weight loss tool anyone needs is tracking the calories you take in and making sure you stay under the correct amount for your gender/height/weight.

It's such a simple concept, that nobody seems to grasp. Everyone wants to do everything they can to lose weight except actually eat a reasonable amount of food for their bodies.

Carbs prevent your body from catabolyzing your muscles after your aerobic workouts. Your muscles will also look depleted without carbs.

Three eggs, hash browns, and toast after cardio is amazing. Pretty much everything I need to refuel.

 

[velociraptor]

There is nothing wrong with eating carbohydrates and fruit. The problem arises from the fact people are in a perpetual state of caloric excess without any physical activity.

 

[Greddleok]

TIL peer reviewed medical journal sources are great when they support your own argument, but invalid garbage to be dismissed out of hand when they don't.

Thisisneogaf.gif

That's exactly what I said. It's cool, if you don't really understand the science keep reading abstracts. I'm sure you'll know when the methodology is poor, or when the conclusions the researchers come to are incorrect.

Peer reviewed isn't perfect. As I said, not all publications are created equally.

 

[SamVimes]

The vast majority of Italian people eat pasta and bread every day, have one of the lowest obesity rate in Europe and have really high life expectancy. Correlation is not causation but it's weird to think that all these people are stuffing their face with fattening poison and end up slim and healthy.

 

[Noirulus]

IIRC that has never been proven.

Yeah, we really need more legitimate research into it. There's only one paper but they used a food questionnaire to measure the results, which is frankly ridiculous.

 

[Malvolio]

Keto is dumb. I often wonder the long term damage people are doing to their bodies consuming such massive quantities of meat and cheese.

The one idea Keto got right is the idea that foods with carbs tend to be high calorie, but cutting them ALL out is overkill. Calories in, calories out. Everything else is noise. The only weight loss tool anyone needs is tracking the calories you take in and making sure you stay under the correct amount for your gender/height/weight.

It's such a simple concept, that nobody seems to grasp. Everyone wants to do everything they can to lose weight except actually eat a reasonable amount of food for their bodies.



Three eggs, hash browns, and toast after cardio is amazing. Pretty much everything I need to refuel.

Keto doesn't require eating a ton of meat and cheese. Don't combine silly fad diets with a body process that only has carb restriction as its requirement. Very easy to do keto while living on healthy food as well.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Carbs prevent your body from catabolyzing your muscles after your aerobic workouts. Your muscles will also look depleted without carbs.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4033492/

People who do low carb and long aerobic workouts show a general ignorance to what they're doing exactly, I agree. Low calories, low carb and longer aerobic workouts is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

No, your brain uses glucose. Glycogen and glucose are both carbohydrates.

There is no evidence that your brain "functions better" on ketone bodies. I find it surprising you say you've read up on it when you don't even know the difference between glycogen and glucose, and think that glycogen isn't a carbohydrate. 15 year olds in biology class know that.

Come on, it should have been clear what he meant. The point was that your body can produce all of the glucose that your brain needs, and that exogenous carbohydrate intake is absolutely not required to function and thrive.

Never look up the traditional Japanese diet if you believe all this.

How far back are you talking? What's currently considered a "traditional Japanese diet" is a very modern invention. Post-WW2 modern.

 

[GatorBait]

The problem with these types of threads is you have one half of the posters arguing stances based on weight loss as the end goal, and the other half arguing for "being healthy" as the end goal with no definition on what "healthy" means. (To further confound things, maintaining a healthy weight is undoubtedly a major factor in general "health.")

 

[ldcommando]

Guys just go on Nutritionfacts.org it's apparently the one with correct info

Spoiler

That's what the vegans like to peddle alot

It has facts in the name. It's gotta be true.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

The vast majority of Italian people eat pasta and bread every day, have one of the lowest obesity rate in Europe and have really high life expectancy. Correlation is not causation but it's weird to think that all these people are stuffing their face with fattening poison and end up slim and healthy.

The "vast majority" of Italian people probably aren't "stuffing their face" with bread and pasta though. Not the slim and healthy ones, anyway.

People always point to Asian and Italian cuisine to try to justify why eating a never-ending pasta bowl at Olive Garden isn't unhealthy.

American dietary habits around carbs aren't great. Our portion sizes are huge.

 

[entremet]

The "vast majority" of Italian people probably aren't "stuffing their face" with bread and pasta though. Not the slim and healthy ones, anyway.

People always point to Asian and Italian cuisine to try to justify why eating a never-ending pasta bowl at Olive Garden isn't unhealthy.

American dietary habits around carbs aren't great. Our portion sizes are huge.

Why single out carbs?

We also get tons of calories from refined oils. They're everywhere as well. Oils are also the most calorie dense food in existence--120 calories per teaspoon. That's ridiculous when you think of the how much stuff is cooked in the stuffed or has it by design.

 

[SamVimes]

The "vast majority" of Italian people probably aren't "stuffing their face" with bread and pasta though. Not the slim and healthy ones, anyway.

People always point to Asian and Italian cuisine to try to justify why eating a never-ending pasta bowl at Olive Garden isn't unhealthy.

American dietary habits around carbs aren't great. Our portion sizes are huge.

You're eating more calories in general. The problem isn't having most of your calories coming from carbs, it's the sheer amount of calories + low exercise.

 

[Ripenen]

Why single out carbs?

We also get tons of calories from refined oils. They're everywhere as well. Oils are also the most calorie dense food in existence--120 calories teaspoon. That's ridiculous when you think of the how much stuff is cooked in the stuffed or has it by design.

Carbs get singled out now because for decades the message was to cut fat and only relatively recently have folks started to accept it's not just dietary fat that contributes to obesity.

 

[entremet]

Carbs get singled out now because for decades the message was to cut fat and only relatively recently have folks started to accept it's not just dietary fat that contributes to obesity.

I'd actually like a study on foods instead of macronutrients. A boiled potato and french fry are technically going to be classified as carbs, but many have run potato only diets with improved blood markers afterward.

If the majority of the carbs are coming from pizza, fries, Snickers bars, you're not getting the full picture.

The same thing happened with fat. If most of the fat is coming from the above items, you run into the same problems.

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

I don't eat carbs in general because they don't offer me anything nutritionally that I can't really get elsewhere, they aren't necessary in the body, and the "healthy" ones don't taste particularly great.

Also I tend to like drifting in and out of ketosis.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'd actually like a study on foods instead of macronutrients. A boiled potato and french fry are technically going to be classified as carbs, but many have run potato only diets with improved blood markers afterward.

If the majority of the carbs are coming from pizza, fries, Snickers bars, you're not getting the full picture.

The same thing happened with fat. If most of the fat is coming from the above items, you run into the same problems.

But you just talked about calories as if they are be-all and end-all determining factor when it comes to obesity... How can you then follow up with a post that wants to examine "foods" instead of macronutrients and numbers? The theory of calories in/calories out demands that all calories have the exact same effect regardless of source. End of story.

 

[entremet]

But you just talked about calories as if they are be-all and end-all determining factor when it comes to obesity... How can you then follow up with a post that wants to examine "foods" instead of macronutrients and numbers? The theory of calories in/calories out demands that all calories are exactly the same regardless of source. End of story.

I never said calories are the end all be all. I said oils are very calorie dense. But that's not the full story.

I'm just saying macronutrient only studies don't give us the full picture. It's a flawed methodology. Heck, that's how fats were originally vilified! Using macronutrient only studies, which are then refuted by things like the French Paradox, who eat more dietary fat than Americans but have less heart disease.

Let's compare foods to foods first.

 

[Surfinn]

Guys just go on Nutritionfacts.org it's apparently the one with correct info

Spoiler

That's what the vegans like to peddle alot

Sorry, what's wrong with that site? The guy who runs it does it all for non-profit and has credentials/research to back what he's saying. His book (also non-profit) "How Not to Die" is backed by literally hundreds of medical studies and references. My GF and are vegan and have taken advice from this site and others that support a plant based diet for almost a year now and we're in the best shape of our lives.

We're building muscle every day and losing fat. We eat carbs/fruit all the time and exercise everyday. Just had our blood work done and everything is perfectly healthy.

I don't understand the carb scare. Just make sure you're eating whole foods and avoiding processed junk.

This is from personal experience (both of us).

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I never said calories are the end all be all. I said oils are very calorie dense. But that's not the full story.

I'm just saying macronutrient only studies don't give us the full picture. It's a flawed methodology. Heck, that's how fats were originally vilified! Using macronutrient only studies, which are then refuted by things like the French Paradox, who eat more dietary fat than Americans but have less heart disease.

Let's compare foods to foods first.

For calories to matter as people imply they do, it has to be the full story. Otherwise, you may as well just disregard them, which is the sensible thing to do, honestly.

Fats were originally vilified because of the heart disease scare nonsense that was completely fabricated. Also, "eat fat, get fat" is such a simple message that it stuck. Much like how calories in/calories out sticks. It's simple and people love simple explanations.

 

[entremet]

For calories to matter as people imply they do, it has to be the full story. Otherwise, you may as well just disregard them, which is the sensible thing to do, honestly.

Fats were originally vilified because of the heart disease scare nonsense that was completely fabricated. Also, "eat fat, get fat" is such a simple message that it stuck. Much like how calories in/calories out sticks. It's simple and people love simple explanations.

Ok, I'm not seeing where we disagree lol.

 

[Fury451]

What I got out of this thread is that diet soda is ok but fruit is bad

That's a typical diet thread outcome.

 

[exmachina64]

Gaf has a MASSIVE diet soda defense force (even though that shit is literally poison); was about to warn the guy about that, but it seems I was too late.

Y'see, when you say "literally poison," I think something that will actually kill you quickly rather than something you can consume for decades without dying.

as somebody who lost 50 lbs consuming 2+ bowls of white rice every day, and then switched over to keto when a bit of the weight started creeping back, i feel like carbs aren't the devil *but* the caveat is you have to be willing to work out A LOT. when i was consuming carbs i'd was doing interval training nearly every day. with keto i can maintain my weight working out half as much

so it boils down to what kind of trade off you're willing to make. i decided spending an hour on the treadmill every day really wasn't for me so as much as i love carbs it was a sacrifice i'd be willing to take

Sure, but you're the outlier here. Most people aren't eating two or more bowls of rice every day or engaging in intense exercise. You can eat carbs in moderation without needing to do interval training every day.

 

[bananafactory]

Fruits are bad for you now?

Is there anything I should eat?

 

[entremet]

Fruits aren't bad for you.

It you're trying to do a ketogenic diet, fruit doesn't fit in. But fruit is fine.

 

[BlueTsunami]

Fruits are bad for you now?

Is there anything I should eat?

Like most things, all fruits aren't created equal. Some are just trash sugar bombs. Typically you'd want the more nutrient dense, fiberous fruits. Its not unlike vegetables, like spinach vs iceberg lettuce. You'd want one over the other.

 

[InfiniteBento]

Potatos, bread, and pasta are my life

 

[Ripenen]

Fruits are bad for you now?

Is there anything I should eat?

Eat nuts and avocados, unless you're allergic. Chicken, salmon, vegetables. There's a lot more to eat in the world than bread and fruit.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Eat nuts and avocados, unless you're allergic. Chicken, salmon, vegetables. There's a lot more to eat in the world than bread and fruit.

yea, but they're the most fun things

 

[exmachina64]

Is there anything I should eat?

Soylent.