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[ЯAW]

Can you give an idea of what those incentives are? I'm curious how a government can encourage sex and procreation. Rebates? Amazing tax breaks? PR campaigns?

On national level: Increased number of day care centers and giving both men and women longer child care leave. Fund to help them recover their work skills after child care leave. PR programs to curb sexism.

On municipal level: some cities give money for every child, and/or other benefits.

There is more and in better detail but can't find many sources, at least in english.

edit. also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodomo_Teate_Law

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Always knew Japan was weird, but not that weird.

 

[mujun]

I spent some time in Osaka and I was shocked how ugly the girls were. Every girl I saw had caked on makeup that made them look hideous. In Tokyo that got balanced out but Osaka was weird. Short skirts and a kg of makeup on so many women.

Plenty of hot girls in Osaka. About 100 times more than say, Brisbane, Australia.

 

[Krixeus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEjGHKKA0ec

Wow his record is 9 hours and 58 minutes NONSTOP? That has to be painful no matter who you are.

Was anyone else grossed out that he was doing it while his cat was trying to climb onto his lap?

 

[Maidenpool?]

You could give tax breaks for people with children... ah who am I kidding, in reality there is nothing you can do to make a population generally reproduce more. In fact, in all of history, any population that has fallen bellow the 2.0 kids per parents birth rate has never come back to save itself. If Japan were to figure out how to do this it would be a historical first. Good luck!

 

[HovaHovito]

You could give tax breaks for people with children... ah who am I kidding, in reality there is nothing you can do to make a population generally reproduce more. In fact, in all of history, any population that has fallen bellow the 2.0 kids per parents birth rate has never come back to save itself. If Japan were to figure out how to do this it would be a historical first. Good luck!

What? Theres plenty of countries with birthrates below 2

 

[strata8]

You could give tax breaks for people with children... ah who am I kidding, in reality there is nothing you can do to make a population generally reproduce more. In fact, in all of history, any population that has fallen bellow the 2.0 kids per parents birth rate has never come back to save itself. If Japan were to figure out how to do this it would be a historical first. Good luck!

So the US, Canada, most of Europe, and Australia are doomed then?

 

[A Black Falcon]

On national level at least increased number of day care centers and giving both men and women longer child care leave. Fund to help them recover their work skills after child care leave. PR programs to curb sexism.

On municipal level, some give money for every child and other benefits.

There is more and in more detail but can't find many sources, at least in english.

How about this? Very good article!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html?pagewanted=1

 

[Maidenpool?]

So the US, Canada, most of Europe, and Australia are doomed then?

In theory... yes.
Obviously it will take a while... and don't think I'm bananas for bringing it up, it's just history.

 

[WalkMan]

Yea because Japan is just crying out for some heroes to fly in to procreate with them. When you put your career and drive first then relationships go onto the back burner, it's not a uniquely Japanese thing, take a look at a lot of career focused people in the US that forego relationships and dating until their 30s, it's a common trope - especially in industrialized nations. More educated and career driven you are, the less kids you have.

Dating is a time investment and can be a distraction, moreso starting a family and settling down. Even worse the maternity rights for females are lacking in Japan so it's throwing it all away if they choose to settle down. Anyways its a socio-cultural issue, not a penis size issue /lack of sex drive like some geniuses here are suggesting.

 

[Reuenthal]

How big are average japanese homes? Not saything this is the only reason or I know how significant is, just wondering about it. I heard they are pretty small, or is that only in Tokyo?

 

[HovaHovito]

In theory... yes.
Obviously it will take a while... and don't think I'm bananas for bringing it up, it's just history.

Lmao please provide some sources

 

[BocoDragon]

In theory... yes.
Obviously it will take a while... and don't think I'm bananas for bringing it up, it's just history.

Well to be fair to you, all of those other countries have immigration.

Japan doesn't.

That is really the reason why it is a big problem in Japan vs everywhere else.

 

[crozier]

How big are average japanese homes? Not saything this is the only reason or I know how significant is, just wondering about it. I heard they are pretty small, or is that only in Tokyo?

I wouldn't say they're small. They're efficient. We waste A LOT of space in American homes, IMO.

 

[Fantasmo]

Lmao please provide some sources

Here ya go, Singapore Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, probably a pretty knowledgeable guy! Someone already linked to him earlier.

This is creating big changes throughout the developed world. The replacement rate—the reproduction rate that keeps a population stable—for developed countries is 2.1, yet nearly half the world’s population has birth rates lower than that. The U.S. has a total fertility rate (TFR) of 2.0—nearly the replacement rate—with Hispanic immigrants leading in birth rates. The U.S. is aging but not as fast as many other countries. A 2010 census showed that 31.4 million Americans live alone—27% of all households (equal to the percentage of childless couples). Living alone allows people to pursue individual freedom, exert personal control and go through self-realization, but these people have fewer children.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/current...or-developed-countries-declining-birth-rates/

Keep lmao'ing bro, it'll get you places. Or use Google yourself next time.

Spoiler

lmao

 

[BocoDragon]

Here ya go, Singapore Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, probably a pretty knowledgeable guy! Someone already linked to him earlier.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/current...or-developed-countries-declining-birth-rates/

Keep lmao'ing bro, it'll get you places. Or use Google yourself next time.

Spoiler

lmao

What you posted doesn't imply that "in all of history, any population that has fallen bellow the 2.0 kids per parents birth rate has never come back to save itself.", as the other poster implied.

It's a modern phenomenon of developed nations to have a shrinking population... And at most it spells out mild economic recession and a host of problems relating to taking care of an aging population.

 

[kirblar]

Yet another reason why Immigration is awesome.

 

[Maidenpool?]

Lmao please provide some sources

Sure, every country that has fallen below 2.1, (I should say 2.1, that's whats considered actual "replacement rate") has never gotten back to 2.1, and has just shrunk. It should also be noted that this a relatively new phenomenon. (Women not having kids.)

Here, you can check some stuff out here.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN

There are two countries I think that flirt between 1.9 and 2 and 2.1 - being Sweden and Britain, which both use a heavy influx of immigrants to boost flagging numbers for now.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Yet another reason why Immigration is awesome.

We all should go to Japan to... help them with this problem, you mean?

 

[BocoDragon]

Sure, every country that has fallen below 2.1, (I should say 2.1, that's whats considered actual "replacement rate") has never gotten back to 2.1, and has just shrunk. It should also be noted that this a relatively new phenomenon. (Women not having kids.)

Here, you can check some stuff out here.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN

There are two countries I think that flirt between 1.9 and 2 and 2.1 - being Sweden and Britain, which both use a heavy influx of immigrants to boost flagging numbers for now.

I don't know that your source really proves that point? But still, I think you could be correct.

But I don't think it's that those who go below 2.1 are in some kind of irreversible tipping point... It's just that once you are at that point, you are at the level of developed nation that it is unlikely to reverse the phenomenon. Rich educated urbanites aren't likely to regress into pumping out children.

Basically for developed nations... Immigration is the only cure. Japan is the only monoculture that is developed (two if we include S. Korea), and that's going to challenge them.

 

[$h@d0w]

probably the tiny dicks.

http://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=3073

Congo: 17.93 cm / 7.1 inches
Korea: 9.66 cm / 3.8 inches

lol

we invest 5 times more in research on penis enlargement and breast size increase than in Alzheimer's. This means that we will all be gorgeous, but we won't remember what we used it for.

 

[Glorified G]

I'm worried we could be missing out on the next shigeru miyamoto

 

[JDSN]

I love the part with the goverment guy in charge of fixing that issue saying that desire comes from men, Japan is fucked.

 

[Deleted member 125677]

To be fair, they have Monster Hunter 4

 

[BocoDragon]

I'm worried we could be missing out on the next shigeru miyamoto

There are Miyamotos all over the world at this point. We no longer live in a world where gaming genius is delivered to us by a small handful of Japanese toy companies.

 

[leroidys]

I think that commentators are overemphasizing the crowded cities thing. Ancient Rome had a similar population density to modern day Hong Kong, yet they were so horny they would fuck in the streets.

I'm not even going to attempt to address the root cause though, because I am, unfortunately, not an expert on Japanese culture.

EDIT: Aw fuck it, here's my wild stab in the dark, read at your own risk:

Every aspect of Japanese social life and responsibility still follows extremely rigid guidelines and expectations. By this age, you're a salaryman, you should have this sort of relationship with your cousins, this sort of relationship with your classmates, this sort of relationship with your boss, etc., etc. However, the strict Japanese social dance of arranged marriages went into a deathspiral in the last century, and they largely bought into western expectations about love and intimacy.

When every aspect of your social life is rigidly controlled with the exception of the most intimidating, dating, how could one possibly cope with the awkwardness and difficulty of it? The only way out that I see is either a relaxing of societal expectations and prescribed norms, or a return to arranged marriages (which my Japanese prof. actually says are making a very small comeback).

 

[BocoDragon]

I think that commentators are overemphasizing the crowded cities thing. Ancient Rome had a similar population density to modern day Hong Kong, yet they were so horny they would fuck in the streets.

I'm not even going to attempt to address the root cause though, because I am, unfortunately, not an expert on Japanese culture.

I am from sparsely populated Canada, and I find nothing over-crowded about Tokyo or other major centres. Definitely agree that it's not a major factor.

 

[HovaHovito]

Here ya go, Singapore Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, probably a pretty knowledgeable guy! Someone already linked to him earlier.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/current...or-developed-countries-declining-birth-rates/

Keep lmao'ing bro, it'll get you places. Or use Google yourself next time.

Spoiler

lmao

Yet from 1975 to 1979 the US TFR was 1.8
Clearly theres no imminent doom just because women average less than 2 children through their lifetime
Maybe next time read a little before trying to act high and mighty lmao

Sure, every country that has fallen below 2.1, (I should say 2.1, that's whats considered actual "replacement rate") has never gotten back to 2.1, and has just shrunk. It should also be noted that this a relatively new phenomenon. (Women not having kids.)

Here, you can check some stuff out here.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN

There are two countries I think that flirt between 1.9 and 2 and 2.1 - being Sweden and Britain, which both use a heavy influx of immigrants to boost flagging numbers for now.

So wheres the doom?

 

[Jubern]

Disclaimer: I don't claim to be an "expert" or anything about Japan, the following is based on my experience living in Japan, attending a Japanese uni and studying Japan society and such. Don't jump on me.

----

I remember discussing this topic (marriage, family, work) with fellow students at the well-known university I studied at in Tokyo. Pretty much all of them were younger than me (it was last year, I was 24) and it was depressing as hell. All of them were acknowledging that something was wrong and that maybe something ought to be done about the way the system was, but they had litteraly no will do be part of it, that it was "too late" for them.

They were students at a big name Uni, which means they're pretty much guaranteed to land a job somewhere, whatever it is*, and they think it will be like for their parents and everything will be smooth sail from there on. When we talk about those topics, those who will consider the discussion seriously tell me that even if they're running towards a wall, there's no other option because that's how society is and going against established (and outdated if you ask me) expectations will only ostracize them. Not all girls are against being housewives, some polls even show the opposite, and most men, even young ones, think women's place is at home raising kids... Even if they don't think it's necessarily good for their situation.


* I think it's not an exaggeration to say that in Japan, the name of the Uni you went at is more important that what you actually studied. I have a fellow French friend who's doing financial control in a well-known Japanese company. He did a business school, of course, and worked at another company before landing this job. Every year, he gets new people in his department who are coming fresh out of Uni, most of which know zilch about anything related to the job. Ie. one of the new girls this year had majored in French litterature.

 

[BocoDragon]

Yet from 1975 to 1979 the US TFR was 1.8
Clearly theres no imminent doom just because women average less than 2 children through their lifetime
Maybe next time read a little before trying to act high and mighty lmao

So wheres the doom?

US has immigration. That's why no doom. Japan does not.

 

[HovaHovito]

US has immigration. That's why no doom. Japan does not.

What about canada, china and brazil and more?

 

[Dabanton]

Once Androids or even better true virtual reality sex becomes possible I can see a lot of Japanese males completely forgoing real women.

 

[BocoDragon]

What about canada, china and brazil and more?

Do you really think countries like Canada and Brazil don't have immigration?? They're every bit the multicultures that America is.

And China isn't a developed nation and it has a one child policy. Big exception. They want fewer kids there. They are not like Japan, a developed monoculture. Japan is the only developed nation that does not allow immigration.

 

[leroidys]

Mexico has like an above average fertility rate.



Japan hates immigrants.

HOLY SHIT at 6.78 fertility rate in 1970. Forget condoms, they weren't even pulling out.

 

[Krixeus]

probably the tiny dicks.

Because we all know that only men with large penises can get a woman pregnant...

 

[Irminsul]

Japan is the only developed nation that does not allow immigration.

That's wrong. For one, you can become a citizen of Japan, so immigration isn't strictly forbidden, even though it's not quite easy.

Additionally, it's not the only country with harsh immigration laws, not even the only developed one. Just ask Switzerland.

(And I do think there are a lot of countries with less strict regulations than Canada.)

 

[ЯAW]

I wonder how many immigrants Japan would need to take, in order to get birthrates to 2.0 and above with next three decades. Maybe it's for the better, lets start thinking about manageable society with shrinking population instead of growing. Although Japan's big debt will cause problems in this scenario.

 

[HovaHovito]

Do you really think countries like Canada and Brazil don't have immigration?? They're every bit the multicultures that America is.

And China isn't a developed nation and it has a one child policy. Big exception. They want fewer kids there. They are not like Japan, a developed monoculture. Japan is the only developed nation that does not allow immigration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population
Meh brazil isnt really
Plus theres australia, sweden, norway, switzerland

 

[BocoDragon]

I wonder how many immigrants Japan would need to take, in order to get birthrates to 2.0 and above with next three decades.

Well last year the pop declined 284,000, so that many immigrants would fix the population shrink. The birthdate doesn't even matter, just the population.

 

[HovaHovito]

I wonder how many immigrants Japan would need to take, in order to get birthrates to 2.0 and above with next three decades. Maybe it's for the better, lets start thinking about manageable society with shrinking population instead of growing. Although Japan's big debt will cause problems in this scenario.

A bigger problem imo is that theres way too many old people in japan. I think they have like over 20 percent over 65 or something

 

[ЯAW]

Well last year the pop declined 284,000, so that many immigrants would fix the population shrink. The birthdate doesn't even matter, just the population.

I would assume fixing the problem via immigration and with their descendants would be more optimal then taking in +250,000 people every now and then.

A bigger problem imo is that theres way too many old people in japan. I think they have like over 20 percent over 65 or something

That is a probelm that correlates their debt probelm. Japan needs increase in retirement age.

 

[BocoDragon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population
Meh brazil isnt really
Plus theres australia, sweden, norway, switzerland

Brazil isn't developed anyway. But they surely allow immigration quotas that offset whatever shrink they may have.

And again Australia is a majorly multicultural immigrant nation too. It kind of blows my mind that this isn't obvious. Sweden, Norway, Switzerland allow it too. Most developed nations allow immigration.

I would assume fixing the problem via immigration and with their descendants would be more optimal then taking in +250,000 people every now and then.

Yeah that's true. There is a certain amount of bringing people in who will have babies.. But generally just bringing people in offsets the difference.

 

[HovaHovito]

Brazil isn't developed anyway. But they surely allow immigration quotas that offset whatever shrink they may have.

And again Australia is a majorly multicultural immigrant nation too. It kind of blows my mind that this isn't obvious. Sweden, Norway, Switzerland allow it too. Most developed nations allow immigration.


Yeah that's true. There is a certain amount of bringing people in who will have babies.. But generally just bringing people in offsets the difference.

So of its developing that should mean the birthrate needs to be higher. Why would the immigration negate the low fertility rate. They just pad the rate but it obviously doesnt help

 

[Irminsul]

And again Australia is a majorly multicultural immigrant nation too. It kind of blows my mind that this isn't obvious. Sweden, Norway, Switzerland allow it too. Most developed nations allow immigration.

I really do wonder where you got the idea that Japan doesn't allow immigration per se.

That's how long you have to live in Japan to become naturalised there:

5 years continuous. 3 years if married to a Japanese national. (dual citizenship not allowed)

That's what you have to do to become naturalised in Switzerland:

Citizenship in Switzerland may be obtained by a permanent resident who lived in Switzerland for at least 12 years (any years spent in Switzerland between the 10th and the 20th years of age count double) and lived in the country for 3 out of the last 5 years before applying for citizenship. One should be able to speak in at least one of German (preferably Swiss German), French, Italian or Romansch (depending on the municipality) and show the following:

• integration into the Swiss way of life;
• familiarity with Swiss habits, customs and traditions;
• compliance with the Swiss rule of law;
• no danger to Switzerland's internal or external security.

 

[BocoDragon]

So of its developing that should mean the birthrate needs to be higher. Why would the immigration negate the low fertility rate. They just pad the rate but it obviously doesnt help

Fertility rate has little to do with this equasion.

It's that developing nations generally don't need any help with the birthrate. Poorer people pump out kids.

Once a nation becomes developed (and right now only European and European-descended nations, plus Japan and maybe S. Korea are technically developed), then their urban, educated citizens don't have enough kids. This is when immigration is necessary to offset the difference.

 

[HovaHovito]

Fertility rate has little to do with this equasion.

It's that developing nations generally don't need any help with the birthrate. Poorer people pump out kids.

Once a nation becomes developed (and right now only European and European-descended nations, plus Japan and maybe S. Korea are technically developed), then their urban, educated citizens don't have enough kids. This is when immigration is necessary to offset the difference.

So that doom for any country below 2 is still nonsense then is what youre saying?

 

[BocoDragon]

I really do wonder where you got the idea that Japan doesn't allow immigration per se.

That's how long you have to live in Japan to become naturalised there:



That's what you have to do to become naturalised in Switzerland:

I don't know if Switzerland is another developed nation edge case... But see here: Japan has almost no net immigration.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Immigration

So that doom for any country below 2 is still nonsense then is what youre saying?

No doom for any developed nation with a birthdate below 2 which allows large scale immigration.

For Japan, pretty much the one non-immigrant country in the developed nation club. Yes there is doom. A slow doom their ever shrinking population means their economy will continue to shrink, and they will feature a host of problems related to taking care of their elderly-heavy population.

 

[HovaHovito]

I don't know if Switzerland is another developed nation edge case... But see here: Japan has almost no net immigration.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Immigration

Immigration
According to the Japanese immigration centre,[11] the number of foreign residents in Japan has steadily increased, and the number of foreign residents (excluding few illegal immigrants and short-term visitors such as foreign nationals staying less than 90 days in Japan)[22] were more than 2.2 million people in 2008.[11]

 

[Yellowflashdude]

Damn, so much cultural relativism in this thread.

 

[Rentahamster]

I will do my part!