Nope i hate it all the time humanity is the cancer of this planetSometimes I fucking hate humanity.
Nope i hate it all the time humanity is the cancer of this planetSometimes I fucking hate humanity.
And yet when MRA's, misogynists, and GG'ers go back to their inherently rehearsed talking points, intellectual discourse is useless. Oftentimes, these chucklefucks WANT you to get into so called civil arguments so they can spread their bullshit.
I make a living off of the internet as a software engineer but I live my life away from the internet. the outdoors is fucking beautiful. it's really not that hard to make friends without Facebook and Twitter. These issuea seem leas like a gaming culture problem and more like a I cant live without social media problem. I'm not making excuses for harassing someone online much less threatening rape so don't misunderstand. I'm sick of this being tied to gamer culture as a whole instead of just losers who can't get off of Facebook and Twitter. I'm guessing those who live outside of the internet aren't involved with this crap.
I know this is not going to be a popular opinion, but they're right that saying "I'm going to rape that bitch" is not a crime. Nor should it be. .
The meaningful discourse is happening. It's unfortunate you'd rather try to prop up and unreasonable and sexist movement, founded on lies, disproven time over, and give it the same esteem as the side arguing against those things, by saying that both sides are "drawing lines in the sand", the apologizing for GGers by basically saying that not all of them are bad or rapists, as if it excuses them supporting something wholly founded on a man's ability to exert sexism and many,MANY rape threats without social/judicial repercussion, whilst a woman is still getting doxxed and threatened to this day all in the name of "free speech" is privilege and the sound of denial. Sure. So if we're "cheerleading" the side that realizes GGers need to reevaluate who they are as people, then i'll take me some pom poms.This isnt about harassment anymore, its just about cheerleading your side. Its turned into a team sport.
Gameragate is bullshit. I don't even understand how this is going on in today society.
People need to grow the fuck up. And realize gaming is not a boys club. Or even a white males club.
I make a living off of the internet as a software engineer but I live my life away from the internet. the outdoors is fucking beautiful. it's really not that hard to make friends without Facebook and Twitter. These issuea seem leas like a gaming culture problem and more like a I cant live without social media problem. I'm not making excuses for harassing someone online much less threatening rape so don't misunderstand. I'm sick of this being tied to gamer culture as a whole instead of just losers who can't get off of Facebook and Twitter. I'm guessing those who live outside of the internet aren't involved with this crap.
Its almost as if whats actually being said doesnt matter anymore because everyones already drawn a line in the sand and has assembled on thier opposing sides. No meaningful discourse is going to get done until GamerGate blows over and dies out since the GG boogeyman (or the aGG boogeyman, if you stand on the other side) already exists. Any time someone wants to have a meaningful conversation youre just gonna hear "Muh Soggy Knees" or whatever.
This isnt about harassment anymore, its just about cheerleading your side. Its turned into a team sport. I look forward to two years down the line when we can have meaningful conversations about these topics again.
No.
You don't understand that you hurt the greater cause when you blow a person's view out of proportion and slam them with terms like "rape apologist" when they very clearly did not mean that at all.
It does NOTHING to change their mind or intellectually challenge their viewpoint. All it does is make them shut down and keep their views to themselves moving forward. Their views remain as strong if not stronger than before, because you make yourself and the position you stand for seem like an assault on their integrity.
Intellectual discourse is the single most important tool, nay, weapon one has to change the world and the issues you see within it. Throw it away and you are doing FAR more harm than good. This is a major problem with my generation and it needs to stop.
Wait what... are you saying Eron was "too nice"?Quite predictable if you were following the case. Eren posted on Reddit as /u/qrios and was fairly regular in posting what updates he was legally able to provide. IANAL, but plaintiff's case always seemed thin from my lay reading of the various dockets and filings.
I guess this is the most appropriate gif:
Back at square one, it seems.We're pretending that psychopathic behaviour is understandable now? :
Can't disagree.Breitbart seriously needs to join the banned link bin
Oh no, I know it isn't. Though the mentality of those types of players definitely exists in real life, and other places as well.
I was a Gamestop manager for nearly 8 years, and the majority of my customers just could not handle the fact that we had girls working at the store. Some were visibly angry, or demanded to speak to guys instead, etc. Others just asked the girls if they carried pepper spray.
What the fuck. This is so depressing. Where was this (city or region), if you don't mind me asking?It really was upsetting, and of course the higher-ups did nothing to combat it. Many times they would have the girls work alone at night, knowing that these "types" often hung around our stores, clearly not intent on buying anything whatsoever. After bringing it up multiple times, I was told "If they can't handle it, they shouldn't be working here".
I could write essays on everything I saw at my time there, but bullet points will do:
- Shy, timid employee is called a "bitch" and "whore" out loud by an angry customer, who wanted to cash out a gift card that was given to him. Threatens her multiple times. I made him leave, he calls the DM. DM allows the guy to go back to the store after-hours (when the female employee was closing alone, gates down, etc) to get his money back. He also received an extra gift card for his troubles, as did the employee herself (which turned out to be nothing but hush money, really).
- Busy with other customers, one guy refused to speak to a female employee (different than the prior person). He waits ~15-20 minutes for me just to ask "What's the best headset for PS3?" I ask him why he didn't just ask my coworker, to which he simply responded "She's a girl, man." The guy was in his late 20s/early 30s.
- Female employee closing alone had been stalked by the same customer over and over (who was previously banned from other stores for doing the same thing). Asks her if she carries pepper spray, what time she got off work, etc. SM/DM did nothing to combat this, nor did they change her schedule or have someone work with her.
- Lights went out at one of our other stores in the parking lot, leaving it pitch black at night. Given the demographic, this worried some of the employees. They fixed it 6 months after the issue was brought up, though it was called a "non-issue" multiple times.
- Had a bunch of 20-somethings using "This rapes!" as sort of a "cool!" expletive. Obviously made my coworker uncomfortable. I tell them to cut it out, and they seem to stop. After a few minutes, they got closer to the counter (where my coworker was standing) and started saying it louder, looking back every so often for a reaction. I kicked them out.
- Female employee is asked by some holiday hire if she "likes balls in her mouth" while chewing gum. She got pissed and left. Because of that, however, my DM wrote her up for leaving her shift early. She brought the issue to HR, was told to "deal with it", and they just fired them both instead.
- Boost Mobile across the street from one of our stores ends up in the news. Girl working alone, pregnant, gets punched in the face and robbed in the middle of the day. I bring up possible solutions to make sure the girls are always working with someone else, at least for a little bit while they were obviously upset/nervous about the news, and was told by my SM "You know the bank right on the corner is the most robbed bank in the city, right?". As if that helped or solved anything.
- The amount of times I heard "Well, you actually play games, right?" when talking to me over any girl coworker just became too consistent to count.
I could go on and on. It never ends. Retailers, publishers, developers, etc. don't put a stop to behavior like this simply because they would lose customers. The generation of "this is man's land" mentality when it comes to games is simply disgusting, and GamerGate is just something these mobs can latch onto as they feel their Boy's Club is becoming inclusive to other walks of life, which terrifies them. It's all they know, and their personalities are so shaped by it, that the idea of anyone else encroaching on it probably gives them some sort of internal crisis when they realize they lack basic acceptance.
What the fuck. This is so depressing. Where was this (city or region), if you don't mind me asking?
If by sides you mean "those assholes in GamerGate" and "everyone else".
Why do people only ever seem to care about the free speech of assholes, and not the free speech of the people those assholes are harassing, threatening and intimidating into silence?
The liberty to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.
What is there to discuss? Unless the meaningful conversation you're talking about is "let's discuss ways we can help mitigate harmful or abusive behaviour on the internet" then I honestly don't see what more there is to say.I look forward to two years down the line when we can have meaningful conversations about these topics again.
All I said was that it shouldn't be punishable to make rape threats in a thread on reddit
It might come as a surprise to people who grew up on Reddit/4chan/whatever but this is absolutely not a large part of MOST people's lives. It's not even just about "old people" or whatever. I can assure you that none of the people I know in real life would know what "doxing" is without it being explained, and while many of them have a casual understanding of Twitter or have an account themselves, they would not have a clear understanding of the idea of an organized group operating on the platform to harass and bully 24/7. I'm talking about people in their 20s and 30s.
The group of people who spend tons of their free time online and know all about the dynamics of drama and how things "work" on the internet are in fact a small group of dedicated users who have that interest. It is not representative of the world at large. Just like how even as gaming has gone totally mainstream, the perspective the average person on the street has of gaming, what they want out of it, and the elements they're interested in being informed about, are very different from the "common knowledge" we share here.
i
The meaningful discourse is happening. It's unfortunate you'd rather try to prop up and unreasonable and sexist movement, founded on lies, disproven time over, and give it the same esteem as the side arguing against those things, by saying that both sides are "drawing lines in the sand", the apologizing for GGers by basically saying that not all of them are bad or rapists, as if it excuses them supporting something wholly founded on a man's ability to exert sexism and many,MANY rape threats without social/judicial repercussion, whilst a woman is still getting doxxed and threatened to this day all in the name of "free speech" is privilege and the sound of denial. Sure. So if we're "cheerleading" the side that realizes GGers need to reevaluate who they are as people, then i'll take me some pom poms.
What is there to discuss? Unless the meaningful conversation you're talking about is "let's discuss ways we can help mitigate harmful or abusive behaviour on the internet" then I honestly don't see what more there is to say.
Its an outrageous violation of the First Amendment, said Volokh, whose legal blog, The Volokh Conspiracy, is published on The Posts website. Fifty years ago, in Brandenburg v. Ohio, we asked if speech that encourages crime could be punished. The Supreme Court said no. There is no legal remedy for [Quinn], because thats how the First Amendment works.
This is the cheerleading bullshit I was talking about just a post ago. Youre seriously going to tell me that the GGers are sooooo devious and sooooo evil that theyre just trying to trick innocent internet citizens into getting into Civil Debates with them?
Every, put wax in your ears, so that the GG harpies cannot lure you into Kotakuinaction with the siren song of Civil Discource.
Does everyone here REALLY think that everyone involved in GG is a barely contained harassing monster who is just a day or two away form raping the next woman they see? Theres a good chance a lot of them are probably just shouting about free speech, and that the majority of harassment and quasi illegal activites are coming from a minority of the people.
When you make these issues us vs them they lose all meaning and become a spectator sport. Its embarassing, for both sides.
What if.... And, bear with me on this.... The Constitution isn't always right?
Im not apologizing for anyone, Im simply asking do you really think that everyone on the GG side is responsible for the huge list of offenses you just typed out? All of them? There isnt a chance that any of them are just in with the wrong crowd? Maybe theyre very passionate about free speech and fell in with the GG rhetoric? What if theyre just immature?
Immaturity is the biggest problem in my opinion. Sarah Nyberg wrote a piece called "I was a Teenage Edgelord" (https://medium.com/@srhbutts/i-m-sarah-nyberg-and-i-was-a-teenage-edgelord-b8a460b27e10#.c3v8lr5bx) subtitled "I got out, and its not too late for you". The important thing I want to point out with this piece is Sarah never states how she got out. You know what she did? She grew up. I don't particularly like this piece because its hypocritical, shes implicitly suggesting that she was allowed to be immature and grow out of it, but does not afford the same luxury to kids today.
In the end thats what we are dealing with, and I really don't know if its solvable. I realize im teetering really close to "kids will be kids" but we dont expect babies to pop out of the womb as fully realized adults. Theyve gonna do stupid shit as they grow up, because people younger than 20 are all universally stupid. Its a difficult problem with a difficult solution but everyone seems happy to just say the equivalent of "Kill em all and let God sort them out", replacing God with The American Justice System (lol) and all Im saying is, I dislike that solution and I think its horrible.
Theres a lot to discuss. What is abusive language? What is the threshold for abuse? Are anonymous comments on twitter abuse? Are they threats? What constitutes a threat? Is Twitter a useless piece of shit platform that will be depreciated in 5 years (sorry, this ones true, its not up for debate, lol)? Is abuse violence? Should these acts be misdemeanors or felonies? What is a proper punishment? How granular should we be when defining abuse and harassment? Should internet anomynmity be protected? Whats the extent of free speech protections?
You cant talk about any of these (on a videogame forum) without someone bringing up Gamergate.
What if.... And, bear with me on this.... The Constitution isn't always right?
i would bet my account that a majority of people who 'side' with gamergate are not under 20 years old or 'kids'.
edit: yes, abuse is violence
Like we should give a shit about the US Constitution on the internet anyway.
Youre telling me youd be ok with someone being charged with a felony for a violent crime for posting on twitter? Youre aware that person will not just be going to prison, but into the unredeemable hellhole that is the United States Prison System?
You're ok with throwing minorities there for looking at policemen wrong.
With any luck some of the idiots will be part of a minority group too.
Im not ok with that. Why would I bring up how bad the prison system is in america if I didnt have any sympathy for our most vulnerable members of society currently begin subjected to it?
Surprisingly, threats of violence can be considered criminal offenses even if they are over a Social media platform.Then you need to change it, and youll need a 3/5ths supermajority of states to vote along with your plan. Thats an exceptionally difficult hurdle to climb and I suggest everyone starts planning from here if they ever want to change free speech laws because everything and anything proposed will be considered unconstitutional otherwise.
Youre telling me youd be ok with someone being charged with a felony for a violent crime for posting on twitter? Youre aware that person will not just be going to prison, but into the unredeemable hellhole that is the United States Prison System?
e: Also sorry thats a personal quirk of the way I talk. A Kid is anyone younger than me, so 28 and below.
Surprisingly, threats of violence can be considered criminal offenses even if they are over a Social media platform.
What were his allgeations? I didn't read all of his original posting when it was posted here, but what I remember was him basically saying she was cheating on him multiple times with several people in the industry. I did not take away much from it other than "in his experience she, on a purley personal basis, is a scumbag and a dishonest girlfriend". Did he claim additional things that were debunked or was the sleeping around itself debunked?
What the fuck.Ironically I just searched for it and guess what source was the highlighted one covering it:
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/...-safety-council-featuring-feminist-frequency/
Here's a link to her blog post about it: http://blog.unburntwitch.com/post/139084743809/why-i-just-dropped-the-harassment-charges-the-man
I agree that the disenfranchisement of felons is a problem and it has its Genesis in Jim Crow laws.I was specifically referring to defining abuse as violence. Violent crimes almost always carry heavier penalties and are often felonies, which will strip a person of many basic rights including the right to vote.
Threats of violence and rape on Twitter are still threats of violence and rape and should be treated as such. If there are laws against those they should be applied.
Most of this is nonsense. It's actually pretty straightforward.Theres a lot to discuss. What is abusive language? What is the threshold for abuse? Are anonymous comments on twitter abuse? Are they threats? What constitutes a threat? Is Twitter a useless piece of shit platform that will be depreciated in 5 years (sorry, this ones true, its not up for debate, lol)? Is abuse violence? Should these acts be misdemeanors or felonies? What is a proper punishment? How granular should we be when defining abuse and harassment? Should internet anomynmity be protected? Whats the extent of free speech protections?
You cant talk about any of these (on a videogame forum) without someone bringing up Gamergate.
^ don't do this, and don't defend others who do this. It's really very simple."I’m not going to stop spreading your disgusting nudes around and making sure your life is a living hell until you either kill yourself or I rape you to death.”
At this point, it's painfully clear that GG's claim to be pushing for any sort of ethics improvement in journalism is bunk (if anything, they've actively made things worse on that front), leaving only the negative aspects of the group as the representation of what they are.Does everyone here REALLY think that everyone involved in GG is a barely contained harassing monster who is just a day or two away form raping the next woman they see? Theres a good chance a lot of them are probably just shouting about free speech, and that the majority of harassment and quasi illegal activites are coming from a minority of the people.
When you make these issues us vs them they lose all meaning and become a spectator sport. Its embarassing, for both sides.
Most of this is nonsense. It's actually pretty straightforward.
^ don't do this, and don't defend others who do this. It's really very simple.
While I don't believe that everybody in GG is a barely contained rapist only moments away from attacking the nearest woman, I do have no problem saying that anybody who still associates with GG at this point is a terrible person. Until they do something to earn the benefit of the doubt, I see no need to coddle people attaching themselves to an effective hate group by giving them an equal voice in some imaginary debate.
Seeing as how we have a system in place to adjust legal punishment for minors who commit crimes, I don't see why that's a special concern for this case.Hey, thats not what I was asking. I was asking questions with nuance like, how should what you quoted be punished? Should we have stricter itnernet access rules? Should the posters real name and ID be visible at all times? If what was posted is actionable for the courts to prosecute, what punishment should be given? If Person A posted that comment to Victim B's twitter, should he get the same sentence as Person Z who posted similar posts to Victims C, D, E, F, G, H, and I as well? What about minors who commit these crimes? Do they have special sentencing rules?
Surprise, when you stop cheer leading and start thinking about things, they begin to get complicated.
Without being too specific, it was in the Florida panhandle. Deeper South than most of Alabama, surprisingly.
That seems like a pretty large problem right there. I haven't followed GG so please don't fault me for that but people don't need to live their lives on the internet.
I make a living off of the internet as a software engineer but I live my life away from the internet.
Im not apologizing for anyone, Im simply asking do you really think that everyone on the GG side is responsible for the huge list of offenses you just typed out? All of them? There isnt a chance that any of them are just in with the wrong crowd? Maybe theyre very passionate about free speech and fell in with the GG rhetoric? What if theyre just immature?
So what you're saying is that when I asked if...Hey, thats not what I was asking. I was asking questions with nuance like, how should what you quoted be punished? Should we have stricter itnernet access rules? Should the posters real name and ID be visible at all times? If what was posted is actionable for the courts to prosecute, what punishment should be given? If Person A posted that comment to Victim B's twitter, should he get the same sentence as Person Z who posted similar posts to Victims C, D, E, F, G, H, and I as well? What about minors who commit these crimes? Do they have special sentencing rules?
Surprise, when you stop cheer leading and start thinking about things, they begin to get complicated.
...then your answer is "yes". No?...the meaningful conversation you're talking about is "let's discuss ways we can help mitigate harmful or abusive behaviour on the internet"...
...then your answer is "yes". No?
Curiously, this never happens to me. I wonder why.Well, in that case, then yes I do feel that any discussion on the wider internet regarding that topic is going to be tainted by people constantly bringing up GamerGate, and once its forgotten about maybe the discourse will become more meaningful and less about ppl hooting and hollaring about thier side.
Im not apologizing for anyone, Im simply asking do you really think that everyone on the GG side is responsible for the huge list of offenses you just typed out? All of them?
There isnt a chance that any of them are just in with the wrong crowd? Maybe theyre very passionate about free speech and fell in with the GG rhetoric? What if theyre just immature?
Do you know how many grown men and women are sexist toward women? Do you know how many of them don't realize that sexism toward men isn't a thing since it relies on power structures of misogyny reinforced by men? Immaturity isn't even reaching the iceberg's tip, it's a societal paradigm that makes any of us completely uncomfortable with the notion that we can oppress or cause harm to others. We want to see our views as good and honest, but when someone, a woman in particular goes "hey. you calling me a slut is sexist and it harms how you view other women", we tend to lash out because our fragility is showing.Immaturity is the biggest problem in my opinion.
No. They are not. There are children, much younger than you or me, who are fully capable of realizing these power structures, and who have called them out with more maturity than a lot of adults. There's simply no excuse for allowing someone to engage in sexism,racism, misogyny etc. It is something that it taught, learned, and enforced, in every age bracket. Saying "kids will be kids" doesn't give a pass to grown men swatting, doxxing,harrassing, slut-shaming women in games journalism, because we've heard that before in life remember?: "boys will be boys". As soon as we stop giving people a pass by saying "oh well, it's just a part of who they are", we can realise that at any age, we can be educated toward equity. Some of the most brilliant art and discoveries have come from the age group you've deemed stupid. It's a very odd phenomena that we as adults like so much to belittle the intelligence and maturity younger people posses whilst we continue perpetuating that idea.I realize im teetering really close to "kids will be kids" but we dont expect babies to pop out of the womb as fully realized adults. Theyve gonna do stupid shit as they grow up, because people younger than 20 are all universally stupid.
Again, threatening violence or rape, in which case the likes of Sarkeesian and Quinn have faced/are facing on a daily basis, with no societal backlash on the part of the harassers. I'd say that'd suffice. When those threats become so real that your public information is posted and you must move like Anita did after being swatted, i'd say that jail time is fair.Theres a lot to discuss. What is abusive language?
What if.... And, bear with me on this.... The Constitution isn't always right?
This is a "but not all men" argument. I used to somewhat think this way when women called us men dogs or pigs and generalized. Listen. When a marginalized group calls out sexism,misogyny, racism, and oppression, when they call out rape threats, or highlight the ridiculous ways people with power behave, your first priority being to say "but not all of us" is you protecting your bubble of an idea that you need to be coddled. That despite nver having to worry about your sexual autonomy being seized when you walk the streets at night, "hey, not all of us are bad eggs,right?". Of course not everyone has carried out these offenses. The marginalized groups know that and trying to argue it down only serves to placate your sense of self-righteousness, but once you support a systemic problem, even with the misguided notion of whatever you think is noble, you then are responsible in part for perpetuating the exact problem. Billy from down the block, whose never touched a girl in his life, trying to argue against the idea that sexism exists, and that GGers just wanted "ethics" all along, is doing harm. Period. He has the opportunity to mature and know better, but his status as a male who doesn't have to worry about living as a woman protects him from confronting the issue.
Youre seriously going to tell me that the GGers are sooooo devious and sooooo evil that theyre just trying to trick innocent internet citizens into getting into Civil Debates with them?
Does everyone here REALLY think that everyone involved in GG is a barely contained harassing monster who is just a day or two away form raping the next woman they see? Theres a good chance a lot of them are probably just shouting about free speech, and that the majority of harassment and quasi illegal activites are coming from a minority of the people.
Im not apologizing for anyone, Im simply asking do you really think that everyone on the GG side is responsible for the huge list of offenses you just typed out? All of them? There isnt a chance that any of them are just in with the wrong crowd? Maybe theyre very passionate about free speech and fell in with the GG rhetoric? What if theyre just immature?
Theres a lot to discuss. What is abusive language? What is the threshold for abuse? Are anonymous comments on twitter abuse? Are they threats? What constitutes a threat? Is Twitter a useless piece of shit platform that will be depreciated in 5 years (sorry, this ones true, its not up for debate, lol)? Is abuse violence? Should these acts be misdemeanors or felonies? What is a proper punishment? How granular should we be when defining abuse and harassment? Should internet anomynmity be protected? Whats the extent of free speech protections?
Hey, thats not what I was asking. I was asking questions with nuance like, how should what you quoted be punished? Should we have stricter itnernet access rules? Should the posters real name and ID be visible at all times? If what was posted is actionable for the courts to prosecute, what punishment should be given? If Person A posted that comment to Victim B's twitter, should he get the same sentence as Person Z who posted similar posts to Victims C, D, E, F, G, H, and I as well? What about minors who commit these crimes? Do they have special sentencing rules?
Sorry to hijack your discussion because this is way off on a tangent but what do you mean by this? I'm a father of four and I find sexism towards men is a very real thing because of it, but obviously nobody is threatening to rape or abuse me on the internet about it so it's not something I discuss often (other than maybe with my wife). Maybe I'm misunderstanding because everything else you're saying is on point!Do you know how many of them don't realize that sexism toward men isn't a thing since it relies on power structures of misogyny reinforced by men?
GamerGate's symbiotic structure on how the "free speech", "innocent" people serve as a shield for the ones that are there to make rape threats has been discussed at exhaustive length. Also, 4chan posts have shown extensive examples of strategies from the second group, including most of what you cast themselves as too dumb to do. In other words, you could not play more into their hands with your posts if they have given you a map and a compass.
Also, your argument that both GG and anti-GG sides are equivalent is fucking nauseating, and not just from a moral standpoint but also from a logical one.
You know asking ten questions per post doesn't make you more intelligent, merely more obnoxious, right? And the fact you don't even attempt to answer any of those questions or anyone else's is a dead giveaway that you are not truly interested in discussion but on showing how much above everyone else and pro-discussion you are without yet moving a finger to carry that discussion forward? I particularly loved your argument that we can't do anything about online threats unless we, personaly, pen a 10k page legislation to cover every single extenuating case.
"Yes, guys, it's shitty, but have you written down what exact punishment should be dealt to a 17 (soon to be 18 in March) year old guy that posted one rape threat, thirty seven insults and two jokes in bad taste? No? Then by the rule of all or nothing, you're not allowed to suggest harsher (read: any) punishment for any of it".
Ironclad argument right there.
Of course it's a real thing, but some people have redefined sexism in a way to exclude it from the discussion.Sorry to hijack your discussion because this is way off on a tangent but what do you mean by this? I'm a father of four and I find sexism towards men is a very real thing because of it, but obviously nobody is threatening to rape or abuse me on the internet about it so it's not something I discuss often (other than maybe with my wife). Maybe I'm misunderstanding because everything else you're saying is on point!
Sorry to hijack your discussion because this is way off on a tangent but what do you mean by this? I'm a father of four and I find sexism towards men is a very real thing because of it, but obviously nobody is threatening to rape or abuse me on the internet about it so it's not something I discuss often (other than maybe with my wife). Maybe I'm misunderstanding because everything else you're saying is on point!