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[John Wick]

Not sure if posted yet, but The Washington Post has published a new article with the latest development in Quinn's criminal harassment case she brought against Eron Gjoni. Gjoni is the ex who authored the screed that led to the terrible stain on society that is Gamer Gate. Gjoni was going to be arraigned on criminal harassment charges on Feb. 24, but Quinn decided the legal case would probably only make things worse. It's pretty sad stuff, but at least it looks like her work with Twitter, Google and Crash Override probably will do more to curb online harassment, so all hope is not lost. The Post also has a new video interview with her.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-int...t-mobs-vs-the-law-the-internet-mobs-have-won/

The basic gist of the story is that the legal system has completely failed those like Quinn when it comes to online harassment and that law enforcement, sadly, doesn't give two fucks about victims like her.









There's a lot of good stuff in the article, and it's worth a read. She's basically still fighting against online harassment, but has concluded the legal system won't help her.

Had a little brief read of some of the article. So what kicked this all off???
Her Ex accused her of sleeping around and wrote about it and posted it on the net?
Was that true or he just made that up?
Also was she the one who got accused of sleeping with game journalist for better review of her Game???

 

[LeleSocho]

This is so incredibly sad...

 

[PtM]

Had a little brief read of some of the article. So what kicked this all off???
Her Ex accused her of sleeping around and wrote about it and posted it on the net?
Was that true or he just made that up?
Also was she the one who got accused of sleeping with game journalist for better review of her Game???

Bye.

 

[Fehyd]

Had a little brief read of some of the article. So what kicked this all off???
Her Ex accused her of sleeping around and wrote about it and posted it on the net?
Was that true or he just made that up?
Also was she the one who got accused of sleeping with game journalist for better review of her Game???

You pretty much nailed it.

Whether any cheating actually occurred is sorta null in the focus of this thread tho.

 

[hobblygobbly]

Read up on him more and that his mum professionally deals with harassment issues/avoidance and she advised him not to post what he did online yet he did any ways. You'd think your mum knowing professionally what she does + advice in general from your parents would be enough but he just seems like a vindictive asshole, fuck him. Whether he started GG or not itself is another debate but he's in agreement with it and is part of it now and also said he'd do it again if he needed to so that's pretty telling...

 

[Corronchilejano]

Had a little brief read of some of the article. So what kicked this all off???
Her Ex accused her of sleeping around and wrote about it and posted it on the net?
Was that true or he just made that up?
Also was she the one who got accused of sleeping with game journalist for better review of her Game???

More than accused he made a huge blog post detailing her supposed cheating. The problem is he also claimed that she was sleeping around to get better reviews for her games and for better coverage (all proven false) and kick-started a movement that... well, has yet to achieve any other goal other than become a cesspool of harrasment and vitriol.

Someone linked a post which has a pretty good rundown of all claims.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Had a little brief read of some of the article. So what kicked this all off???
Her Ex accused her of sleeping around and wrote about it and posted it on the net?
Was that true or he just made that up?
Also was she the one who got accused of sleeping with game journalist for better review of her Game???

Her ex started some kind of online witch hunt and idiots for some reason turned against her and made her life hell because she wants to "destroy video games" or something. Whether the original accusations of the ex were true or not doesn't matter at all and is none of our business. The people doing the harassing are idiots and should be held accountable for their behavior.

 

[Fehyd]

More than accused he made a huge blog post detailing her supposed cheating. The problem is he also claimed that she was sleeping around to get better reviews for her games and for better coverage (all proven false) and kick-started a movement that... well, has yet to achieve any other goal other than become a cesspool of harrasment and vitriol.

Someone linked a post which has a pretty good rundown of all claims.

I don't think he actually insinuated that she was sleeping with individuals for better review scores. I might be wrong though.

 

[Moon_frogger]

So what I learned from this is that there are people on gaf who think 'I'm gonna rape that bitch' should be protected free speech. I don't think I wanna post here anymore. I feel sick.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I don't think he actually insinuated that she was sleeping with individuals for better review scores. I might be wrong though.

Read it and find out!

 

[dity]

I don't think he actually insinuated that she was sleeping with individuals for better review scores. I might be wrong though.

He threw in a lot of shit just to make her look bad and basically guessed at names of men she knew and said she slept with those people - and those people all worked at game review sites.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Bye.

?

 

[Corronchilejano]

I don't think he actually insinuated that she was sleeping with individuals for better review scores. I might be wrong though.

I could be wrong. It was a long time ago.

If that was the case I guess she would've sued for slander, so maybe that wasn't the case.

Edit:

So what I learned from this is that there are people on gaf who think 'I'm gonna rape that bitch' should be protected free speech. I don't think I wanna post here anymore. I feel sick.

I don't think that's the spirit of their arguments.

 

[Fehyd]

He threw in a lot of shit just to make her look bad and basically guessed at names of men she knew and said she slept with those people - and those people all worked at game review sites.

Uh, he was acquaintences with a few as I recall. One was even her boss. (There was actually a twitter exchange between her and the boss's girlfriend I believe).

That in and of itself isn't an implying anything since the indie scene and the games blog scene are so intermeshed. (Which is why gamergate started seeing bogeymen everywhere)

 

[Fuchsdh]

It might come as a surprise to people who grew up on Reddit/4chan/whatever but this is absolutely not a large part of MOST people's lives. It's not even just about "old people" or whatever. I can assure you that none of the people I know in real life would know what "doxing" is without it being explained, and while many of them have a casual understanding of Twitter or have an account themselves, they would not have a clear understanding of the idea of an organized group operating on the platform to harass and bully 24/7. I'm talking about people in their 20s and 30s.

The group of people who spend tons of their free time online and know all about the dynamics of drama and how things "work" on the internet are in fact a small group of dedicated users who have that interest. It is not representative of the world at large. Just like how even as gaming has gone totally mainstream, the perspective the average person on the street has of gaming, what they want out of it, and the elements they're interested in being informed about, are very different from the "common knowledge" we share here.

Yep. It's like how people are (justifiably) angry that politician's ignorance of tech security/internet issues has led to bad policies... but they're really not much less savvy than the average person out there too. We're just nerds and are essentially fringe subject-matter experts on this point.

While I think better awareness and education would help, though, I don't think the legal system is set up to address these sorts of internet mobs. The threshold for harassment is individual action; you don't hold a single person criminally accountable for saying "you suck, I hope you die", and you can't hold them responsible in most situations for the actions of other actors. The issue here isn't really the threats, those have always existed, it's that it's never been easier for sustained barrages of the stuff, and our legal system isn't set up for that.

While I think there's an argument to be made by this article that there are ways the police and legal system are failing (letting the kids they tracked who were making threats off with warnings, etc.) even if you are effective at prosecuting these individuals the internet is a huge place and it's easy to hide your tracks. Each round of harassment against a person online could involve hundreds or thousands of people across the globe. It's like asking police to arrest everyone in a mob, with the mob changing every few weeks.

Uh, he was acquaintences with a few as I recall. One was even her boss. (There was actually a twitter exchange between her and the boss's girlfriend I believe).

That in and of itself isn't an implying anything since the indie scene and the games blog scene are so intermeshed. (Which is why gamergate started seeing bogeymen everywhere)

The games press (and pretty much any entertainment or trade press) are deeply incestuous; it made it easy for GamerGate to whip themselves up in a frenzy and justify the harassment to themselves, because ethics in game journalism are shit.

 

[Igo]

Would any of the incitement, harassment or defamation charges mentioned in the article against this dude actually be winnable?

 

[PtM]

?

I may be pretty agitated right now which might cloud my judgment, but to me that looks like the usual GG "I heard" shit-flinging.

<He said she said>

Dude, this is not our business and totally besides the point. Just stop.

 

[Mega]

Systemic online harassment is hardly isolated to gaming.

Obviously, we're not debating that. I was responding to duckroll's post that practically none of what has happened (including the involved people, incidents, websites, groups, terminology, methodology) is known or understandable to the public or even most video game enthusiasts... hence it makes sense that law enforcement and courts don't get it. It's not an age thing or that they're grossly ignorant.

 

[d00d3n]

The thing is, there's a world of difference between us discussing Trump here, and me saying "Donald Trump is an idiot and should be shot", and me finding his twitter account and then sending *him* a message like "You're an idiot and should be shot". And there's the orders of magnitude difference between one jackass doing that, and hundreds, if not thousands of jackasses doing it, with some of them shifting from "should be shot" to "I'm going to shoot you" or something similar.

You seem to be unaware that US law already distinguishes between these things.

Saying someone should be shot is borderline. It's unlikely to be taken seriously by law enforcement unless there's more to it, but it is potentially demanding murder.

The other is a simple insult and nowhere near the law.

I am highly aware of this distinction. Frankly, I don't see how there can be any doubts about that based on what I wrote. The police should of course investigate credible threats, and they do in most civilized countries. People who are venting on reddit, 4chan or various comments sections of political blogs have traditionally not been considered credible threats. This is something I agree with.

Of course you're ignoring what was actually said, which is the equivalent of "I will shoot Donald Trump", which a direct threat. The US legal system is apparently too lacadasical to deal with that sort of direct threat if it's not written on a piece of paper (even phone threats tend to get ignored, let alone internet postings), or directed at some sort of official authority figure (i.e. anyone from a sheriff to a president), in which case the police/FBI/Secret Service/etc. will come down on it like a ton of bricks. Against a private citizen, especially a not-very-rich woman? They don't give a shit.

Well, I completely disagree I guess. It is completely appropriate to consider the specific circumstances of how a statement like that is made and decide if it could be hyperbole for comedic effect, venting without serious intent, or a number of other things, really, other than the credible threat that you see it as a clear example of.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

People really trying to defend Eron and GG now huh

Guess we'll see you for the 2 year anniversary in August

 

[Xisiqomelir]

So what I learned from this is that there are people on gaf who think 'I'm gonna rape that bitch' should be protected free speech. I don't think I wanna post here anymore. I feel sick.

You should probably read Professor Volokh's brief. It is the suppression of the defendant's speech which is being petitioned against.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Welp, she's not the first to be let down by the legal system in this country and she damn sure won't be the last. I hope she can go forward and be whole again at some point. I imagine the scars from this will be deep.

 

[Fehyd]

Would any of the incitement, harassment or defamation charges mentioned in the article against this dude actually be winnable?

I don't think so. If anything Eron has some chances for civil suits against some of the media outlets, but that's faaar away at this point.

 

[dantevsninjas]

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion, but they're right that saying "I'm going to rape that bitch" is not a crime. Nor should it be. If it were, imagine how many people would have been arrested by now for posting hateful things about politicians on Facebook. Now, obviously this isn't a nice thing to do, and if you actually send threats to her personally somehow, you should be charged with harassment.

But going on reddit and reading through a subgroup dedicated to people who disagree with you, and being shocked to see threatening messages or language, is a bit over the top, in my opinion.

They were killed by words?? I'm pretty sure they were killed by actual physical people wielding guns. Now you could try and argue that, had hate speech been illegal it would never have come to that, but suppressing people's opinion and forcing them to keep it to themselves is rarely helpful in that way.

There's a big difference between saying a hateful thing about a politician and threatening someone, and if you can't see that difference you're either being deliberately obtuse, or you're an idiot.

Since you're so convinced it's not, and shouldn't be, a crime, why don't you try threatening one of the presidential candidates in a public forum and see where that gets you.

 

[Fehyd]

There's a big difference between saying a hateful thing about a politician and threatening someone, and if you can't see that difference you're either being deliberately obtuse, or you're an idiot.

Well isn't part of that having to do with being a "public figure"?

 

[rakkadakka]

Let's be clear, gaming journalism is a glorified enthusiast press. They aren't the place you should even remotely go to for objectivity.

So from the beginning this movement has been about harassing people and ruining their lives and so it will continue.

Fucking children on the internet.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Well isn't part of that having to do with being a "public figure"?

She was pretty much forced into being a public figure by his blog post

 

[funkystudent]

It is kinda insane how 1 bad break up between some small indie dev and some dude blew up into this giant thing.


Like holy shit. Talk about snowballing.

 

[PtM]

You should probably read Professor Volokh's brief. It is the suppression of the defendant's speech which is being petitioned against.

What's again the term for burrowing someone in information to cripple them? That's what I'm reminded of right now.

 

[Fuchsdh]

You should probably read Professor Volokh's brief. It is the suppression of the defendant's speech which is being petitioned against.

It's also worth reading the Supreme Court (8-1) opinion in Snyder v. Phelps. The Court held that the Westboro Baptist church might be scummy, but their speech in a public venue couldn't be used as the basis for a tort.

 

[Oppo]

I'm actually not surprised law enforcement is slightly behind overall. Certain western police segments are better. I think this would have gone differently in Canada. This is fairly recent still, a 2013 phenomenon.

The thing I'm pondering lately about the whole GG situation is that at its heart, it's a problem of one against many. A faceless many. There's one target, or a handful, on one side and then a vastly multitudinous cast of super-ego-driven, supposedly wronged, masked male figures, who probably rotate in and out of throwing jabs and pulling shit like doxxing on a regular basis. It's a few people vs a digitally manifested, angry, sentiment, or set of worldview frames. You can cut off a tentacle every so often but it's essentially Cthulu; to even gaze at it for very long will undoubtably cause madness.

When all of that went down I could barely comprehend what was even happening. It's a snowball, a constellation actually, of satellite issues with "fuck women" at it's core. The way it sparked with the Quinn story was like a bunch of conditions being met at once and the beast was born.

The extra shit topping on this soufflé is that enforcement will always be behind, the new weird bad thing has to occur for us to even recognize that this new weird bad thing can even happen, to ELI5.

i apologize for leaving metaphors all over the place.

 

[dity]

I am highly aware of this distinction. Frankly, I don't see how there can be any doubts about that based on what I wrote. The police should of course investigate credible threats, and they do in most civilized countries. People who are venting on reddit, 4chan or various comments sections of political blogs have traditionally not been considered credible threats. This is something I agree with.




Well, I completely disagree I guess. It is completely appropriate to consider the specific circumstances of how a statement like that is made and decide if it could be hyperbole for comedic effect, venting without serious intent, or a number of other things, really, other than the credible threat that you see it as a clear example of.

Law enforcement has absolutely shut down locations based upon those throw-away threats made on 4chan and the like. They are not "traditionally" not considered threats, because you have no idea if the next throw-away threat is actually serious or not.

Here's some links.

 

[FyreWulff]

Let's be clear, gaming journalism is a glorified enthusiast press. They aren't the place you should even remotely go to for objectivity.

So from the beginning this movement has been about harassing people and ruining their lives and so it will contiue.

Fucking children on the internet.

They also rag on gaming journalism while giving Brietbart, a "journalism" outlet that has actually been found responsible for lies multiple times, blank checks to say whatever they want because Brietbart promises them exposure and a book.

When Milo Yipyipyip 's star started to fade, he even showed up on their subreddit and not so subtly threatened to turn on them if they started questioning him more rigorously.

By the way, no publisher has bought the rights to that book. Silo Yarnmollusk was only able to sell the rights to it to his own employer. It's still not published.

 

[The Technomancer]

It might come as a surprise to people who grew up on Reddit/4chan/whatever but this is absolutely not a large part of MOST people's lives. It's not even just about "old people" or whatever. I can assure you that none of the people I know in real life would know what "doxing" is without it being explained, and while many of them have a casual understanding of Twitter or have an account themselves, they would not have a clear understanding of the idea of an organized group operating on the platform to harass and bully 24/7. I'm talking about people in their 20s and 30s.

The group of people who spend tons of their free time online and know all about the dynamics of drama and how things "work" on the internet are in fact a small group of dedicated users who have that interest. It is not representative of the world at large. Just like how even as gaming has gone totally mainstream, the perspective the average person on the street has of gaming, what they want out of it, and the elements they're interested in being informed about, are very different from the "common knowledge" we share here.

Seriously. There is this bizarre fucking bubble around people who have grown up on the seedier parts of the internet since childhood where they don't realize that the bullshit they're inoculated to just does not fly to the rest of "normal" people

 

[cartographer]

It is kinda insane how 1 bad break up between some small indie dev and some dude blew up into this giant thing.


Like holy shit. Talk about snowballing.

One extremely poorly and recklessly handled public break-up from one member involved, yes.

But if it wasn't this, it was going to be something else. The people behind GG were just waiting for any excuse to escalate their harassment that had already been ongoing at that point.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Law enforcement has absolutely shut down locations based upon those throw-away threats made on 4chan and the like. They are not "traditionally" not considered threats, because you have no idea if the next throw-away threat is actually serious or not.

Here's some links.

But those are threats of imminent danger at a specific location or event. They're far different from the average threats we're talking about in this article (in comparison, authorities did take action when specific bomb threats were made at one of Sarkeesian's events, for instance.)

 

[Nanashrew]

I still see the internet as parts of real life. It's there for a lot of people and when things happen just like in real life, you can't always just step away from things because they're there when you return. This means from owning up to something to bullying and harassment.

We've seen campaigns to stop bullying in real life, and we've seen campaigns to stop cyber-bullying. That is some acknowledgement that it exists, that there are some repercussions, that they can still relate to real life and you the person in general. But online has so many flaws with safety and protection, and laws also have problems in not understanding these concepts and what to do about them.

A threat is still a threat regardless if it's online or not and should be taken seriously. Freedom of speech is not without consequence if that speech is hateful and harmful to someone's life.

I don't have the answers on anonymous harassment, but a solution is definitely required. This stuff just keeps escalating further and it's unacceptable how there are no repercussions to some, especially repeat offenders.

--

Anyway, I'm going to maybe take a nap or something. That really long write up on page 5 took a lot out of me.

 

[Salbug]

...

Oh damn... I'm glad to hear you have gotten better.

 

[User 479360]

Poor woman

I read the article and it's incredibly sad.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

What's again the term for burrowing someone in information to cripple them? That's what I'm reminded of right now.

I would argue that the brief is very concise at 20 pages.

 

[Fehyd]

I would argue that the brief is very concise at 20 pages.

The actual protection order is an interesting read well. I think there's literally one vague sentence that could even be construed as worthy of granting an order.

 

[d00d3n]

Law enforcement has absolutely shut down locations based upon those throw-away threats made on 4chan and the like. They are not "traditionally" not considered threats, because you have no idea if the next throw-away threat is actually serious or not.

Here's some links.

What do your examples prove, exactly? Do you disagree that there are thousands (or probably millions) of threats on the internet right now? I will concede that law enforcement agencies have reacted in a couple of cases. So what?

 

[blackjaw]

It might come as a surprise to people who grew up on Reddit/4chan/whatever but this is absolutely not a large part of MOST people's lives. It's not even just about "old people" or whatever. I can assure you that none of the people I know in real life would know what "doxing" is without it being explained, and while many of them have a casual understanding of Twitter or have an account themselves, they would not have a clear understanding of the idea of an organized group operating on the platform to harass and bully 24/7. I'm talking about people in their 20s and 30s.

The group of people who spend tons of their free time online and know all about the dynamics of drama and how things "work" on the internet are in fact a small group of dedicated users who have that interest. It is not representative of the world at large. Just like how even as gaming has gone totally mainstream, the perspective the average person on the street has of gaming, what they want out of it, and the elements they're interested in being informed about, are very different from the "common knowledge" we share here.

Duckroll nailed it

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't think he actually insinuated that she was sleeping with individuals for better review scores. I might be wrong though.

He very much fostered the harassment movement against her after just the initial post on forums and chat rooms. IIRC that was a lot of the actual basis of her case against him, based on a post of hers I read last year: evidence that he cultivated and guided the mob of hateful speech that was directed her way, including some private logs between him and friends about his intentions and desired outcome basically being to "ruin her"

 

[PtM]

Why is Eron Gjoni associated with GamerGate ? Didn't he just revealed a story that should have been kept private ? I don't recall any sign of sexism or rape glorification in his WordPress.

But maybe I missed something ?

You missed the article in the OP. Bummer, right?

I would argue that the brief is very concise at 20 pages.

You're surely correct.

 

[Cleve]

Why do judges need cyber stalking and doxing explained to them? I'd understand if it were 2004, but that just makes them seem incredibly out of touch. I get it that I'm way more immersed in internet culture than most, but surely there have been enough high profile cases of internet harrassment already that people involved in the legal field don't need this stuff explained to them by a victim.

 

[dity]

What do your examples prove, exactly? Do you disagree that there are thousands (or probably millions) of threats on the internet right now? I will concede that law enforcement agencies have reacted in a couple of cases. So what?

People acting on a threat likely is a result of how much exposure the threat got, rather than being taken non-seriously. But don't move the the goal posts.

 

[Fehyd]

He very much fostered the harassment movement against her after just the initial post on forums and chat rooms. IIRC that was a lot of the actual basis of her case against him, based on a post of hers I read last year: evidence that he cultivated and guided the mob of hateful speech that was directed her way, including some private logs between him and friends about his intentions and desired outcome basically being to "ruin her"

Any chance you'd be able to find the post? I'd like to read it.

 

[Clefargle]

This whole thing just keeps getting worse. I feel sorry for her, what a shitty series of events

 

[Nanashrew]

Oh damn... I'm glad to hear you have gotten better.

Thank you. ( ´ &#9661; ` )&#65417;

Just wanted to bring up some personal experience to maybe help some understand what one might go through. Zoe's blog tumblr is also good for this stuff too as she's talked about her time being harassed and how exasperating it all is. It is just heart breaking and very painful. It's not a place anyone should ever be in.

I don't want my post to be the spotlight either. I just would like to see more empathy towards her and what she's facing. She needs a lot of support.