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[Timu]

Did a new comparison, this time with altered settings on my monitor:

Now KI:

And DR3, with gamma between 7-9:
7:

8:

9:

 

[Alo81]

Are you capturing through your monitors output...? Changing settings on the monitor itself should have no effect on captures through the capture card.

 

[Mononoke]

Why aren't more sites/media outlets talking about this? Hell even on GAF this isn't blowing up the way other topics did. But this is such a huge deal.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Why aren't more sites/media outlets talking about this? Hell even on GAF this isn't blowing up the way other topics did. But this is such a huge deal.

Spoiler

This is SonyGaf obviously. Although we basically did when Digital foundry showed some comparisons

But I am shocked that such a thing is happening on the xbox one

 

[Vizzeh]

Why aren't more sites/media outlets talking about this? Hell even on GAF this isn't blowing up the way other topics did. But this is such a huge deal.

Because a lot of people washed their hands with MS long ago, this stuff is not a surprise with the rest of their Band-Aids. Anyone that cared, that didn't have brand loyalty likely avoided X1 unless they own both systems.

 

[Timu]

Are you capturing through your monitors output...? Changing settings on the monitor itself should have no effect on captures through the capture card.

Yep.=p

It's strange though, because it looks like this on my screen:

But when I use my capture card it ends up like this:

 

[Timu]

I just realized something: You guys are probably saying that there are things wrong with my direct feed because it didn't look like what you're seeing on your TV. While that's true, once you do a direct feed it'll probably look like my shots due to how the game has always looked regardless of calibration, meaning Microsoft is to blame for the upscaler. I just took a pic offscreen and compared it to a direct feed and the difference is massive, and once the X1 has a screenshot function or more people having a capture card it'll become more noticeable that the upscaler is to blame for all this. If my new capture card does the same, then it's obviously the X1 doing this.

 

[BruiserBear]

I really hope Microsoft fix this. It's a serious problem for anyone who knows what a decent image looks like.

Unfortunately I'm afraid the media's reaction to games like Ghost running at 720p (looks the same as 1080p) is likely to reinforce MS's belief that it's great just the way it is.

 

[Cyrix]

I play on a PC monitor that's a Hanns G HH281HPB and it's set to RGB Limited.

Are you capturing through your monitors output...? Changing settings on the monitor itself should have no effect on captures through the capture card.

Yep.=p

It's strange though, because it looks like this on my screen:

But when I use my capture card it ends up like this:

Could you like draw a diagram of your setup or something, because I feel like there is some miscommunication or confusion of terms happening here because I looked up the monitor you mentioned and couldn't find any reference to it having any kind of output...

 

[Arkanius]

Could you like draw a diagram of your setup or something, because I feel like there is some miscommunication or confusion of terms happening here because I looked up the monitor you mentioned and couldn't find any reference to it having any kind of output...

Agreed.
How are you changing settings on your monitor and it's affecting the captured feeds ?

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Agreed.
How are you changing settings on your monitor and it's affecting the captured feeds ?

From the post above, the captured feed looks fine, his monitor capture looks crushed blacks like.

 

[ekim]

Something happened. I just died in ACIV and after it reloaded the sharpness filter went missing. Everything in the background now looks a bit blurred but much more clean. I made an offscreen photo:

Or is this supposed to be fog?

Edit: after a cutscene it went back to the normal look. Seems like it was a bug where the DOF didn't reset.

 

[Timu]

From the post above, the captured feed looks fine, his monitor capture looks crushed blacks like.

Basically what he said.

 

[Cyrix]

From the post above, the captured feed looks fine, his monitor capture looks crushed blacks like.

Basically what he said.

Ok, that doesn't explain how changing your monitors settings would have any effect on how the image looked to your capture card, I'm not trying to call you out or anything I'm just trying to understand what is going on here because it doesn't make sense to me.

it's my understanding that in any conventional capture setup the monitor/TV is the LAST part of the chain (or at least the end of one part of it in a system with a pass through), making any image adjustments on it should not be capable of having any effect on anything before it in the chain.

 

[Timu]

Ok, that doesn't explain how changing your monitors settings would have any effect on how the image looked to your capture card, I'm not trying to call you out or anything I'm just trying to understand what is going on here because it doesn't make sense to me.

TBH I don't think it does when you think about it so you're right on that, I was just trying everything in my power and the most effective ways are altering the game settings to avoid the crushed blacks.

 

[Cyrix]

TBH I don't think it does when you think about it so you're right on that, I was just trying everything in my power and the most effective ways are altering the game settings to avoid the crushed blacks.

Well altering the in game settings is a completely reasonable way to try and counteract the problem, it's changing setting through your monitors OSD having any effect further back the chain that didn't make sense to me.

Edit: I misread your comment initially and I see we are in agreement now. hooray for diplomacy.

 

[Timu]

Well altering the in game settings is a completely reasonable way to try and counteract the problem, it's changing setting through your monitors OSD having any effect further back the chain that didn't make sense to me.

Well the main reason I did that because everyone said theirs didn't look like that on their screens, then again they obviously calibrated their TVs. But the fact I'm getting this problem no matter what I do means something is wrong with the upscaler.

 

[madmackem]

I really hope Microsoft fix this. It's a serious problem for anyone who knows what a decent image looks like.

Unfortunately I'm afraid the media's reaction to games like Ghost running at 720p (looks the same as 1080p) is likely to reinforce MS's belief that it's great just the way it is.

It makes that statement by the gaming press even worse now we know this, cod looks like shit because of the added sharpness on top of the jaggies that are already there. How the fuck can you not tell between a 720p scaled game with ms secret sauce crushed blacks and sharpen filter, compared to native 1080p and no scaling?. Those who said that have lost all creditability, i dont think they know what they are talking about.

 

[Timu]

Another test, and this has an obvious difference:

Limited RGB:

Full RGB:

Look at the crushed blacks in the background.D=

 

[plagiarize]

great example. you've been doing great stuff trying to isolate this.

MS really don't give two shits about image quality. it saddens me greatly.

 

[Slayer-33]

Damn, DR 3 looks epic lol

 

[Alo81]

Another test, and this has an obvious difference:

Limited RGB:

Full RGB:

Look at the crushed blacks in the background.D=

It is really apparent there, but just to be clear - 1. is your capture card capable of capturing full range and 2. is your capture card set to capture full range? If you're 100% sure that the answer is yes to both of those questions, then I think we can ensure that it is the XONE itself at fault

 

[Timu]

Here's another test, but with the PC monitor on Full RGB:

And the results are:

Limited RGB:

Full RGB:

The exact same as the other test...

There's no difference if I set my monitor to Limited or Full RGB...

 

[Timu]

It is really apparent there, but just to be clear - 1. is your capture card capable of capturing full range and 2. is your capture card set to capture full range? If you're 100% sure that the answer is yes to both of those questions, then I think we can ensure that it is the XONE itself at fault

It's on default settings, untouched as well, so it's hard to say since I don't see a setting like that on my capture card. Basically it captures what's simply being outputted on screen so what I captured here is what I see on my screen. Also my capture card isn't at fault as the image is already being outputted on the screen before I even set up my capture card and capture direct feeds of it.

 

[nib95]

Being as OCD about picture quality and accuracy as I am (an ISF calibrator is coming round to professionally calibrate my VT65 tomorrow) it's good for my health that I don't have an Xbox One yet. Otherwise I'd be spending hours every day tweaking gamma, colour, brightness and contrast levels till I felt they were accurate. Microsoft really dropped the ball here.

 

[GodParticle]

That KI logo in the dojo looks like a bad photoshop

 

[badb0y]

Sadira's stage is affected the most it seems, but I decided to do a 1080p capture:

Wtf? Did I die and go back in time 10 years?

 

[140.85]

Would somebody PLEASE talk to Simon!

 

[Timu]

I've been doing these tests for nearly everyday since I got my X1, it shouldn't have to come to that, I didn't have to do it for the 360, PS3 and PS4 but all of a sudden I need to do it for X1.:/

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Ok, that doesn't explain how changing your monitors settings would have any effect on how the image looked to your capture card, I'm not trying to call you out or anything I'm just trying to understand what is going on here because it doesn't make sense to me.

it's my understanding that in any conventional capture setup the monitor/TV is the LAST part of the chain (or at least the end of one part of it in a system with a pass through), making any image adjustments on it should not be capable of having any effect on anything before it in the chain.

I've been doing these tests for nearly everyday since I got my X1, it shouldn't have to come to that, I didn't have to do it for the 360, PS3 and PS4 but all of a sudden I need to do it for X1.:/

So, I am still confused.

How do we have a different quality between off screen and direct capture? Shouldn't that be the same?

I am getting my XB1 tomorrow, and will see how mine looks.

Edit: I am talking about the crushed blacks, not the sharpening filter.

 

[weekend_warrior]

Here's another test, but with the PC monitor on Full RGB:

And the results are:

Limited RGB:

Full RGB:

Why is the Full RGB darker then the Limited RGB? Shouldn't it be the opposite?

 

[Timu]

So, I am still confused.

How do we have a different quality between off screen and direct capture? Shouldn't that be the same?

I am getting my XB1 tomorrow, and will see how mine looks.

Edit: I am talking about the crushed blacks, not the sharpening filter.

Basically when you use a capture card, what the game is outputting from itself is what it'll look like when you capture a direct feed of it, the main changes is from affecting the game settings(brightness/gamma) and X1's/your TV-PC RGB settings as well. I've done multiple tests and right now it's looking hopeless, lol.

 

[Timu]

Why is the Full RGB darker then the Limited RGB? Shouldn't it be the opposite?

I thought Limited was suppose to be lighter.

 

[Alo81]

Here's another test, but with the PC monitor on Full RGB:

And the results are:

Limited RGB:
http://i1.minus.com/iGeY299N4MdqY.png[IMG]

Full RGB:
[IMG]http://i7.minus.com/ibiAG2oNM3CufD.png[IMG]

The exact same as the other test...

There's no difference if I set my monitor to Limited or Full RGB...

[IMG]http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/279/981/f45.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]

That setting only effects video, not regular output.

And can you remind me your exact capture card model?

From what I'm reading, being able to display/capture full color range doesn't seem to be a standard feature of capture cards and that may be why the blacks are crushed and look crushed on your PC. Your monitor is capable of full range but your capture card isn't capable of passing full range.

Look into it yeah?

 

[Timu]

That setting only effects video, not regular output.

And can you remind me your exact capture card model?

From what I'm reading, being able to display/capture full color range doesn't seem to be a standard feature of capture cards and that may be why the blacks are crushed and look crushed on your PC. Your monitor is capable of full range but your capture card isn't capable of passing full range.

Look into it yeah?

Mine is a Roxio Game Capture HD Pro, but that will change soon. It's just odd that this is happening with the X1 for me and not the PS4 as it does it perfectly for direct feed.

 

[REDRZA]

That setting only effects video, not regular output.

And can you remind me your exact capture card model?

From what I'm reading, being able to display/capture full color range doesn't seem to be a standard feature of capture cards and that may be why the blacks are crushed and look crushed on your PC. Your monitor is capable of full range but your capture card isn't capable of passing full range.

Look into it yeah?

The monitor should be and most likely is able to receive FULL RGB signal. The fact that the blacks are still crushed means the problem is with the Xbone.

On my Sony Bravia LED, I set the RGB to full and the blacks are crushed. Set it to limited and it's normal.

The fact that a monitor which is capable of displaying full rgb yet the blacks are still crushed is an Xbone issue, nothing to do with the monitor or capture card.

 

[Alo81]

The monitor should be and most likely is able to receive FULL RGB signal. The fact that the blacks are still crushed means the problem is with the Xbone.

On my Sony Bravia LED, I set the RGB to full and the blacks are crushed. Set it to limited and it's normal.

The fact that a monitor which is capable of displaying full rgb yet the blacks are still crushed is an Xbone issue, nothing to do with the monitor or capture card.

I said in my comment that I understood that the monitor was capable of displaying full RGB but the capture card may not be capable of passing through or accepting full RGB which could explain the crushed blacks on both his monitor and captures - regardless of if his monitor is capable of the capture or not. I think it's worth looking at all avenues to ensure there isn't any user error before coming to a definite conclusion.

 

[oVerde]

Is there anyway to control this issue? It really do bad to the image, Ki goes all flat black or shine vibrant colors.

 

[jelly]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-call-of-duty-ghosts-next-gen-face-off

Owners of Microsoft's new console aren't treated to the same level of quality in this area. 720p - also featuring the same post-process anti-aliasing - is confirmed, which is then upscaled to 1080p by the console before arriving on your TV screen. On top of that, a strong sharpening filter is also applied over the entire 720p image, encompassing both in-game imagery along with the HUD elements and even the main menu screens. Based on the fact that we're seeing something very similar in Killer Instinct and Dead Rising 3, we have a feeling that this may actually be part of the Microsoft upscaling solution - and we don't like it.

The end result isn't a particularly pretty sight: harsh edges are further accentuated over the additional jaggies created by the upscaling, while fine details, foliage, and the surface of water all appear quite grainy in comparison to the PS4 and PC versions. It's a crushing step down from the PS4's much clearer 1080p presentation, taking away some of the finesse expected from a next-generation product, but thankfully it's also something that you can opt out of.

While there's nothing you can do to increase the native resolution of the Xbox One game, it is possible to disable the sharpening filter by switching the console's output resolution to 720p. With that in mind it's rather baffling as to why Microsoft would choose to bork image quality in such a way by default, especially considering that we actually see more detail resolved when the unmolested 720p output is upscaled by our display - though your screen may (or may not) add a frame or two of processing lag to carry out its own upscaling calculation. Perhaps the team behind the Xbox One hardware thought that the sharpened look might help to hide the deficit in resolution, but in truth it does more harm than good.

 

[Fried Food]

how can I find out the ideal color depth option I should be using? I just picked the highest value...

 

[Vlodril]

so we went from that special upscaler makes all games 1080p anyway to please put your tv's to 720p ?

 

[pixlexic]

The sharpening ruins anything that is scaled out that has a lot of detail.

Like jagos knees. Far away textures in dead rising ... And even higher Rez games like ac4 with highly detail areas and textures.

Do we need to start a operatin rain fall for this?

 

[John Caboose]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-call-of-duty-ghosts-next-gen-face-off

Finally.

 

[CozMick]

Want next gen? Drop your res to 720p.

INCEPTION!

 

[Chobel]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-call-of-duty-ghosts-next-gen-face-off

Good to know that the press is picking up on this.

 

[Schrade]

Mine is a Roxio Game Capture HD Pro, but that will change soon. It's just odd that this is happening with the X1 for me and not the PS4 as it does it perfectly for direct feed.

I discovered that my AverMedia AverTV can only capture in Limited RGB on my PS3/PS4. If I set my PS3 to Full RGB then it crushes blacks.

Did you do that test on your PS3 with your Roxio? (If you have one)

 

[Raist]

Why is the Full RGB darker then the Limited RGB? Shouldn't it be the opposite?

No.
A limited output will either look fine or washed out.
A full output will either look fine or with crushed blacks.

If you want more detailed infos check here and here.

I discovered that my AverMedia AverTV can only capture in Limited RGB on my PS3/PS4. If I set my PS3 to Full RGB then it crushes blacks.

Did you do that test on your PS3 with your Roxio? (If you have one)

He took a lot of PS4 screens (check the next-gen screens thread). They look absolutely fine.

 

[Timu]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-call-of-duty-ghosts-next-gen-face-off

Yep, this is already proof that KI and DR3 are doing this going by all the screens I posted here and it's not me screwing up, it's them, I'm glad DF did an article on this, this news needs to be spread more.

 

[John Caboose]

I'm pretty sure I asked about BF4 in this thread before and some/one of you said it had the sharpening effect. According to this article by DF it doesn't. I don't have the game so could someone please tell me which it is?

Interestingly, the third issue is where we see an active design change being made. As is the case for Xbox One games such as the recent Call of Duty: Ghosts, some titles rendering at below 1080p make use of a hardware upscale that artificially sharpens the image. This produces a prominent halo effect around around details - the idea being that it adds "pop" to some elements, but with the largely unwanted side effect of emphasising aliased edges.

Thankfully for Battlefield 4, these sharpening artefacts have been entirely removed for its final release on Xbox One. The aliasing issues still persist in a typical manner for a 720p game, but not in such a vicious capacity as was once the case. This doesn't excuse the Xbox One's image quality by comparison to the 900p output on PS4, but it's one less point of concern if this is the only version you intend to buy.

 

[Raist]

I'm pretty sure I asked about BF4 in this thread before and some/one of you said it had the sharpening effect. According to this article by DF it doesn't. I don't have the game so could someone please tell me which it is?

I guess they disabled it in the latest build. Haven't checked the pictures so can't confirm.