• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Zelda at E3 to have two demos, Nintendo asking press to free up 90 minutes.

jwillenn

Member
I'm hoping this will become my favorite Zelda of all. A Link To The Past has been the top dog for far too long now.

They should release the demo on the eShop later this year.

They should release the game (U) this year, and offer a 50% off incentive for those who also get the NX edition during the first month of launch.
 

Diffense

Member
One of my biggest hopes with the wide opens spaces is that they do utilize it in other ways like having interest mobs and minibosses like King Bulblin from TP. Having combat encounters and other interesting events occur in the overworld would be perfect utilization of those larger open areas. And this is almost guaranteed to some degree or another given how they highlighted the fact that Epona auto navigates freeing up the player to pay attention to other things in the world.

I want the game to react to my progress. Complete some dungeon or major quest and then ohh look there are enemies throughout Hyrule field sent on reprisal raids or something. I freed a town in the NW and now in SW an enemy invasion force is coming across the plains. Shit like that which makes the world feel more alive and utilizes the open spaces in unique ways.
Yeah, the even field can be used in ways that make the open space interesting. Heck, I vaguely remember a task that involved racing across Hyrule Field in OoT that I liked. OoT also had some instances where beating the dungeon changed the world. IIRC, Death Mountain stopped erupting or Lake Hylia refilled. Those were neat touches that made Link's actions seem more impactful.
 

ReyVGM

Member
One of my biggest hopes with the wide opens spaces is that they do utilize it in other ways like having interest mobs and minibosses like King Bulblin from TP. Having combat encounters and other interesting events occur in the overworld would be perfect utilization of those larger open areas. And this is almost guaranteed to some degree or another given how they highlighted the fact that Epona auto navigates freeing up the player to pay attention to other things in the world.

I want the game to react to my progress. Complete some dungeon or major quest and then ohh look there are enemies throughout Hyrule field sent on reprisal raids or something. I freed a town in the NW and now in SW an enemy invasion force is coming across the plains. Shit like that which makes the world feel more alive and utilizes the open spaces in unique ways.

Well, Miyamoto said "The world will change and be affected by what you choose to do".

Hopefully that means an expansion of like how when you de-frosted the mountain in Majora's Mask, or filled/emptied Lake Hylia.
 
Because I forgot to address this in my first second response:

All you can do here is roll into trees that occasionally contain a skulltula, that in itself is terrible design because to 100% the game it practically demans you roll into every tree which is tedious and repetitive.

Here's what you do in Ocarina of Time's Hyrule Field:

- You see a castle. As you get closer, you see a drawbridge. But the sun is setting, and by the time the sun is down, the drawbridge closes. Then a bunch of skeletons rise out from under the ground and attack you. You survive until daybreak, then enter the castle town.

- You see a bridge that crosses the river nearby the castle. After you cross the bridge, you see a staircase leading up towards a mountain. At the top of the staircase, there's a village that's full of stuff to interact with and do.

- You follow the river upstream...and realize there's a canyon full of monsters, with a waterfall at its head that you can put to sleep with a royal melody. Behind it, you find a cavern where the fish people live.

- You notice that the grass is starting to taper off as you approach the west. You head further in that direction and it turns out there's a desert valley through which the river flows south.

- If you follow the river south, there's a lake! And there's a guy hosting a fishing spot, a laboratory, and sentient scarecrows waiting for you there.

If you think there's "nothing to do" in Ocarina of Time's Hyrule Field, you don't understand The Legend of Zelda. The Legend of Zelda is about exploration and discovery. Hyrule Field is the first step to both of those things.

Skyward Sword achieved a mechanically rich world without making it look like a playground.

Stuff like figuring out that you needed to use the hermit crab monsters' shells to cross rivers of quicksand and bowling a bombu plant over a bridge over lava that can't support both your weight and Link's.

You had already contradicted yourself by the very next sentence. Impressive.

Seriously, that's exactly the kind of shit people are talking about when they make playground comparisons and say it didn't feel like a real world.

Open worlds can be dressed up as much as possible but they still offer the same gameplay as Hyrule Field, The Great Sea, or The Sky.

The gameplay in The Legend of Zelda's overworld is wildly different than the gameplay in The Wind Waker's, Twilight Princess's, and Skyward Swor'd's Sky. And that's an open world game.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Yeah witcher 3 would definitely be better if its world was a small children playground looking thing. That would be ideal

Skyward Sword achieved a mechanically rich world without making it look like a playground.

Stuff like figuring out that you needed to use the hermit crab monsters' shells to cross rivers of quicksand and bowling a bombu plant over a bridge over lava that can't support both your weight and Link's. Great little environmental puzzles nicely integrated into the world design that impede progress. Open worlds can be dressed up as much as possible but they still offer the same gameplay as Hyrule Field, The Great Sea, or The Sky. If they have more puzzly areas you reach via the open world portion of the map in Zelda U, that's no different from what Skyward Sword did, with The Sky being the open world and surface areas being the puzzly linear areas. And in that case it wouldn't really be open world. It'd just be like every other 3D Zelda but with a much bigger hub. The open area will just be more visually interesting, and by the looks of the size of it, time-consuming. As boring as it was, one thing The Sky had going for it was you didn't have to spend much time in it if you utilized the boost rings effectively.
 
I'm refering to the underlying mechanical structure, you can dress it up with whatever mature artstyle you want as long as the geometry has lots of gamey things going for it.

Zora's River is proper video game level design:







There's platforming, narrow paths/bridges you need to navigate with caution otherwise you're thrown into the river which flows downstream and takes you back (sort of a risk reward proposition; move faster and you increase the risk of falling), puzzle solving as you figure out how to reach the piece of heart (use the cucco), secrets (in the first pic iirc there are rupees hidden in that narrow water stream on the right side); actual gameplay in other words.

Zelda U's overworld is like this, empty space void of gameplay substance:



All you can do here is roll into trees that occasionally contain a skulltula, that in itself is terrible design because to 100% the game it practically demans you roll into every tree which is tedious and repetitive.

The point I'm making about the playground comment is that every part of the terrain is there because it serves a gameplay purpose, EAD has never been about making immersive and atmospheric worlds. Like, the gap between the pillars around the piece of heart is tuned for interesting platforming, not to make the world beautiful and feel realistic.
I was waiting for you to use an older Zelda game... in particular Oot.. now you blew it.
 
Skyward Sword achieved a mechanically rich world without making it look like a playground.

Not in my opinion. Everything about Skyward Sword's 3 worlds felt like constrained, artificial "gamey" video game levels instead of actual world to me.

I think an earlier poster was right, there needs to be a balance. Thats where Skyward fucked up, because it divided the world exploration part(with all the big open spaces and sidequests and villages and most of the NPCs and even treasures relegated to the sky) from the more "gamey" parts below, and it made them both seem weaker and contrived without the other. There needs to be a way to combine these two into one whole world.
 

ReyVGM

Member
I'm glad I'm able to enjoy all Zelda games for what they are, not for what certain group of fans think they are supposed to be.

But I'm so hyped for this game that I know I'll be disappointed, just like OoT was a disappointment after waiting 3 years for its release -_-
 

Diffense

Member
I think people are getting too hung up on the definition of "open world". What Aonuma and co. basically mean is that the world is seemlessly connected with more than one way to get to various locations. They explained this when the compared the way OoT and TP glued together separate areas that had loading transitions or how tWW masked loading with the Great Sea.
 

Aroll

Member
90 minutes is too much.

I felt like I was spoiled on too much when playing Skyward Sword, so I'm just going to straight up not watch the Zelda stuff this E3.

If it's all Nintendo's bringing then that means no Nintendo this E3 :(

Ideally, this game is so huge it's impossible to spoil too much. 60+ hours for the main story alone, 100+ to 100% it. If they are going to offer such a huge world, it only makes sense for the game itself to have the content to match, making for the longest game to date. 90 minutes? Say we get 3 total hours of footage from various areas, it should only scratch the surface.

Skyward Sword had an interactive world and it really looked like one. When you have to make a world full of riddles you have to make sure people don't just run around and get to the spot without using the item u wanna have them using. There is no open world game where yoz can REALLY interact with the environment. You can't get an overworld like the Witcher 3 or Xenoblade when you try to make it full of riddles where the player is forced to use items to get to an special place. Look at ALBW, an big world where you can get everywhere from the start....IF you have the right item.

Edit: But maybe the Zelda team found a way to destroy these restrictions we had in Open World games for nearly a decade now and made something really special. If there is one developer who i trust to make that happen it is Nintendo.

Skyward Sword's world (on the surface) was mostly disliked because it was linear. Yes, it had all these puzzle elements that felt very dungeony - but in dungeons you practically expect things to be linear because well, logistically the reason these dungeons exist typically have some logic applied. There won't be a bunch of extra paths and pointless rooms most of the time as these areas were at one point logically used for something. So there would be, for the most part, a pretty straight path from start to the end. Thus, dungeon linearity is good, because the challenge is defeating the enemies and solving the puzzles, more than it is exploration.

Making the entire surface world a linear single path puzzle like dungeons is certainly appealing for some and I enjoyed it, but it also lessened the impact of the dungeons a tad, because I felt like I just conquered a dungeon to get to another dungeon. And while small sections like that are good, that was the extent of the entire surface world. It wasn't partially dungeon like with puzzles, it was entirely so. There was no respit from it. That's why folks like things like Hyrule Field. It's more open, there isn't some big puzzle elements to progress, but if you do care to explore those fields you can often find hidden things - all optional, but certainly a nice reward. it's a fine balance in gameplay. TLoZ (NES) was literally all built around that complex with very few puzzles. it was all exploration, finding secrets, and combat with LIGHT puzzle elements.

I agree that "vomit inducing bad" was probably a poor phrase to use when describing the Witcher 3, but I think I get his overall point, which is that we should not be asking for a world that looks like the Witcher for a new Zelda game because the Witcher isn't designed with interactive levels or areas in mind.

The Witcher is first and foremost a story based RPG, so you'd expect to find lots of loot, NPCs and enemies in the overworld, while Zelda is first and foremost a puzzle-based action adventure game, where you expect to find environmental blockages and obstacles which you need to overcome, often with the use of specialized items. The comparison to their worlds doesn't really work, unless this is a drastically different Zelda game.

This isn't true though. Hyrule Field is generally a prime example of an area that has some secrets if you look for it, but otherwise is just a large swath of land you traverse to get to other areas. Now, blow up every area to 10x the size of that, and you have Zelda U's world. The question becomes - how much is there to find in this world? Because the more secrets and cool things there are to find, the more justified a massive swath of open land can really be.

That's a bit longer than average I think, but not tremendously so, but honestly given the size of this title I wouldn't be surprised if Zelda U was the first in the series that legit required over 40 hours to beat for most everyone. Every console entry in the series since OoT has been getting longer and longer. OoT, MM and WW all straddled 30 hours for average play time, when the previous 2D entries were like 10-15, then with TP and SS both were close to 40 for most people. Given this is the first entry that's open world and how long it's been in development it could turn out to be a truly massive game. I hope Nintendo is able to pace it out well.

Then again depending on how they structure the game and dungeon progression the game may actually be completeable in a shorter time.

I forsee the average being closer to 50. But yeah, should be the longest game yet.
 

Ansatz

Member
Here's what you do in Ocarina of Time's Hyrule Field:

- You see a castle. As you get closer, you see a drawbridge. But the sun is setting, and by the time the sun is down, the drawbridge closes. Then a bunch of skeletons rise out from under the ground and attack you. You survive until daybreak, then enter the castle town.

- You see a bridge that crosses the river nearby the castle. After you cross the bridge, you see a staircase leading up towards a mountain. At the top of the staircase, there's a village that's full of stuff to interact with and do.

- You follow the river upstream...and realize there's a canyon full of monsters, with a waterfall at its head that you can put to sleep with a royal melody. Behind it, you find a cavern where the fish people live.

- You notice that the grass is starting to taper off as you approach the west. You head further in that direction and it turns out there's a desert valley through which the river flows south.

- If you follow the river south, there's a lake! And there's a guy hosting a fishing spot, a laboratory, and sentient scarecrows waiting for you there.

If you think there's "nothing to do" in Ocarina of Time's Hyrule Field, you don't understand The Legend of Zelda.

What you're describing is the practice of dressing up interesting gameplay with scenarios that make thematical sense. In Nintendo games the gameplay mechanic comes first, then you find screenplay that fits with the idea.

As long as the gameplay involved is satisfying they can do whatever they want in this regard, but the problem is modern game design sacrifices mechanical depth for the sake of providing a better experience in the way you describe, and that to me is unacceptabe and unlike Nintendo's core design philosophy.

In order to provide a superior experience in the direction of your preference, they have to compromise the reason why I play Zelda games. In other words, water down the gameplay.

The beauty of Nintendo games lies in the underlying mechanical function of the actions you perform, not the superficial description of what happens on the screen. No, what Link is actually doing in Zora's River is using the Cucco as a tool to gain horizontal reach in order to get to the platforms that contain the piece of heart. That's the reason why you play the game, for this puzzle. Then on top of that you add the stuff you said as the cherry on top to make the scene feel a little richer than just a series of obstacles. I can assure you that this is the thought process of Nintendo as they develop the games. They are first and foremost engineers of clever constructions, not creators of art. That's why they have trouble adapting to the modern climate of AAA gaming.
 
This isn't true though. Hyrule Field is generally a prime example of an area that has some secrets if you look for it, but otherwise is just a large swath of land you traverse to get to other areas. Now, blow up every area to 10x the size of that, and you have Zelda U's world. The question becomes - how much is there to find in this world? Because the more secrets and cool things there are to find, the more justified a massive swath of open land can really be.

My point was about comparing the Witcher style world to a Zelda style world, and how the levels of interactivity are almost apples and oranges, and Hyrule Field is really nothing like the Witcher, so I'm not sure I get your response.

Although honestly when I think about OoT Hyrule Field itself isn't what immediately comes to mind. Sure, there are various secrets like rocks to bomb, rupees at the top of the drawbridge, poes to collect, but I think more about the branching areas, like Zora's River, Lake Hylia, Death Mountain, the Castle courtyard... and I don't think that it's terribly hard to get areas very similar in gameplay style to those all on the same, seamless map:

-A rock on the other side of a cliff that you would need to jump to, but can't because of that rock.

-A bridge on the lake with a cryptic message which winds up giving you a cool new item.

-A heart piece lying on a cliff just out of reach unless you have the correct item

These are all very simple examples of puzzles in the overworld of OoT which should have no problem transitioning to an open world. If Zelda U has enough of these types of puzzles and instances peppered into its world, along with something along the lines of what I mentioned earlier (dynamically appearing obstacles/enemies) it could be a very engaging open world.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Because I forgot to address this in my first response:



Here's what you do in Ocarina of Time's Hyrule Field:

- You see a castle. As you get closer, you see a drawbridge. But the sun is setting, and by the time the sun is down, the drawbridge closes. Then a bunch of skeletons rise out from under the ground and attack you. You survive until daybreak, then enter the castle town.

- You see a bridge that crosses the river nearby the castle. After you cross the bridge, you see a staircase leading up towards a mountain. At the top of the staircase, there's a village that's full of stuff to interact with and do.

- You follow the river upstream...and realize there's a canyon full of monsters, with a waterfall at its head that you can put to sleep with a royal melody. Behind it, you find a cavern where the fish people live.

- You notice that the grass is starting to taper off as you approach the west. You head further in that direction and it turns out there's a desert valley through which the river flows south.

- If you follow the river south, there's a lake! And there's a guy hosting a fishing spot, a laboratory, and sentient scarecrows waiting for you there.

If you think there's "nothing to do" in Ocarina of Time's Hyrule Field, you don't understand The Legend of Zelda.



You had already contradicted yourself by the very next sentence. Impressive.

Seriously, that's exactly the kind of shit people are talking about when they make playground comparisons and say it didn't feel like a real world.

OoT is not open world, though. Hyrule Field is the open area and the areas you reach from Hyrule Field are not Hyrule Field are no different from the surface areas you reach from The Sky in Skyward Sword except they're much less complex.

Some amendments to your points though:

- You see a bridge that crosses the river nearby the castle. After you cross the bridge, you see a staircase leading up towards a mountain. At the top of the staircase, there's a village that has a minigame you can do and a sidequest for spiders. You see a gate leading up to the mountain, but it's locked by a guard who refuses to let you pass without an official letter from Zelda.

- You follow the river upstream...and realize you can't go much further than a few feet in because there's a boulder in the way and you need bombs.

- You notice that the grass is starting to taper off as you approach the west. You head further in that direction and it turns out there's a desert valley through which the river flows south that you can't do anything in until you are an adult.

- If you follow the river south, there's a gate you can't get past without a horse. To get to the lake you have to enter via Gerudo Valley or a warp door in Zora's Domain, neither of which are Hyrule Field. The warp from Zora's Domain hurts the feel of the world.

Now let's describe some of Skyward Sword's areas the same way.

You arrive in a vast desert. In the distance you can see a huge structure shaped like the Hylian crest. The area is enclosed by ancient ruins and rivers of quicksand, but eventually you realize the shells of the enemies can be used as rafts and bombs can be dropped from above with the beetle to create footholds. After overcoming the environment you reach the structure and discover that it's the temple of time.
 

boxter432

Member
Well, Miyamoto said "The world will change and be affected by what you choose to do".

Hopefully that means an expansion of like how when you de-frosted the mountain in Majora's Mask, or filled/emptied Lake Hylia.

yeah, maybe something like when you first enter a new "area" (whether it is more open or more self contained), it may be pretty dangerous, with lots of moblins and enemies, or an environmental hazard. beat the area/boss/dungeon and the area is transformed in some way. perhaps the environment changes, perhaps you get the "soul" of the boss/area and put it in the "book/gamepad" on Link's belt and now the area is "tamed" or you can choose to use the book to limit the enemies in the area so it is easier to explore (but can deactivate it if you want some more combat challenge/spoils collecting)
 

Diffense

Member
Ansatz said:
The beauty of Nintendo games lies in the underlying mechanical function of the actions you perform, not the superficial description of what happens on the screen. No, what Link is actually doing in Zora's River is using the Cucco as a tool to gain horizontal reach in order to get to the platforms that contain the piece of heart. That's the reason why you play the game, for this puzzle. Then on top of that you add the stuff you said as the cherry on top to make the scene feel a little richer than just a series of obstacles. I can assure you that this is the thought process of Nintendo as they develop the games. They are first and foremost engineers of clever constructions, not creators of art.

I try not to play games like a videogame design student. At least, not until I've beaten them at least once. I don't necessarily want to see the scaffolding at all. The game should make me believe in the experience it wants to create.

I'm Link. I'm in Hyrule. Make me believe.
 

Ansatz

Member
Not in my opinion. Everything about Skyward Sword's 3 worlds felt like constrained, artificial "gamey" video game levels instead of actual world to me.

Well that's what they are designed to be.

The only issue I have with the world below is that the areas aren't interconnected in a metroidvania fashion, instead they opted for a linear, almost level based approach to overworld progression. At that point they might as well just make a world map like Mario Galaxy did as it moved away from the SM64 style. However, the individual areas themselves are brilliant. SS has some of the best 3D level designs ever made.
 

Clefargle

Member
Well that's what they are designed to be.

The only issue I have with the world below is that the areas aren't interconnected in a metroidvania fashion, instead they opted for a linear, almost level based approach to overworld progression. At that point they might as well just make a world map like Mario Galaxy did as it moved away from the SM64 style. However, the individual areas themselves are brilliant. SS has some of the best 3D level designs ever made.

This is literally the one thing I want Z:U/NX to pull off. An interconnected dungeon underworld with the giant overworld too.
 
Well that's what they are designed to be.

The only issue I have with the world below is that the areas aren't interconnected in a metroidvania fashion, instead they opted for a linear, almost level based approach to overworld progression. At that point they might as well just make a world map like Mario Galaxy did as it moved away from the SM64 style. However, the individual areas themselves are brilliant. SS has some of the best 3D level designs ever made.

I dont think making 3D Zelda into 3D Mario courses with all the big spaces, villages, NPCs, opening of treasures, sidequests as a separate entity was a good idea. The next Zelda needs a way to combine them into a cohesive whole. You have your playspace areas, but dont gate them artificially from the connective tissue that makes Zelda games unique experiences with a world to explore.
 

takriel

Member
This is literally the one thing I want Z:U/NX to pull off. An interconnected dungeon underworld with the giant overworld too.

Holy shit. Just imagine it. This game has only three or four dungeons. But they are huge and interconnected and located under Hyrule Field, with multiple entrance points.

This is genius. Genius!
 

RagnarokX

Member
Well that's what they are designed to be.

The only issue I have with the world below is that the areas aren't interconnected in a metroidvania fashion, instead they opted for a linear, almost level based approach to overworld progression. At that point they might as well just make a world map like Mario Galaxy did as it moved away from the SM64 style. However, the individual areas themselves are brilliant. SS has some of the best 3D level designs ever made.

Well, really the approach to the world that Skyward Sword took is no different from the approach every 3D Zelda except Wind Waker took. Wheel and spokes. You have the wheel (Hyrule Field, Hyrule Field, The Sky) which are always fairly empty hubs from which you enter spokes (Zora's River, Death Mountain trail, Lanayru Desert) which are areas with linear progression and more gamey stuff to do. The only difference is in Skyward Sword you enter the spokes by dropping into them from above rather than entering from the side, since the wheel is the sky.

The only Zelda with this approach where you can kinda go "anywhere" at the start and see areas you can't reach yet is OoT. TP is just as linear as SS with how it handles access to the spokes, since you can only reach them in the prescribed order in the first part of the game. Technically you can only do the 3 spokes in the prescribed order in OoT, too, but you can at least access the foyer or each spoke.
 

Ansatz

Member
This is literally the one thing I want Z:U/NX to pull off. An interconnected dungeon underworld with the giant overworld too.

Which is exactly what the 2D games do, and ALBW pulled that off masterfully with the interplay between the light and dark world.

Metroid Prime is the prime (lol) example of how to execute it in 3D space. I think they are too scared to do that in Zelda though, considering their comments of how people get confused by 3D games.

Which is probably why Zelda U will have freedom, so that you can accomplish substantial goals whichever direction you move in. That in itself establishes even more concerns on my part, because freedom means they can't tune the game correctly. Modern open world games opt for solutions such as scaling enemy levels based on yours, which is not good imo (I'll refrain from using the word garbage :p)
 
I am curious in all these random detail events such as the farmer and the animals reacting to various events organically in the overworld. The 2014 footage was filled with reactive detail. Everything reacted when the monster attacked, there was even forshadowing. It told a small story that was more than link went here and beat up the boss without telling a word. That is the experience I hope to get from the boss fights in the overworld.
 

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
I am curious in all these random detail events such as the farmer and the animals reacting to various events organically in the overworld. The 2014 footage was filled with reactive detail. Everything reacted when the monster attacked, there was even forshadowing. It told a small story that was more than link went here and beat up the boss without telling a word. That is the experience I hope to get from the boss fights in the overworld.

Yeah these small details really sell the experience. It feels more organic and natural rather than just being some predetermined set piece.
 
Yeah these small details really sell the experience. It feels more organic and natural rather than just being some predetermined set piece.

It could be just a set piece but it's a pretty good one I'll give them that. That being said the horses from the game awards seem to imply that these details are an important aspect to the world being created so it might not be purely scripted to run in that single way.
 

georly

Member
Well, really the approach to the world that Skyward Sword took is no different from the approach every 3D Zelda except Wind Waker took. Wheel and spokes. You have the wheel (Hyrule Field, Hyrule Field, The Sky) which are always fairly empty hubs from which you enter spokes (Zora's River, Death Mountain trail, Lanayru Desert) which are areas with linear progression and more gamey stuff to do. The only difference is in Skyward Sword you enter the spokes by dropping into them from above rather than entering from the side, since the wheel is the sky.

The only Zelda with this approach where you can kinda go "anywhere" at the start and see areas you can't reach yet is OoT. TP is just as linear as SS with how it handles access to the spokes, since you can only reach them in the prescribed order in the first part of the game. Technically you can only do the 3 spokes in the prescribed order in OoT, too, but you can at least access the foyer or each spoke.

Yeah, OoT is no better but it gives the ILLUSION of being better, which was nice. It adds context to the world and makes it seem bigger than it actually is. Hopefully this game does something similar but grants you even more access. Would be nice (but arguably bad design) to let you INTO a dungeon you can't beat (first room CLEARLY denies you access, like zelda 1 w /ladder, for example).
 

TheJoRu

Member
(almost) no loading zones would be sweet

It'd be interesting to find out what kind of solutions they have for loading the world. Correct me if I'm wrong and are missing a bunch of good examples, but Nintendo aren't known for doing huge areas without loading times. Wind Waker is a good example of a game where the sea and its islands have basically none, but I mean, the sea itself doesn't have many objects so it can very seamlessly focus on loading islands as you get closer. So how they will approach loading towns with a bunch of NPCs in a good way will be interesting. Perhaps they'll make you go through some long, tight foggy ravine or something to reach the town, in order to give the engine some space to load it all.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Yeah, OoT is no better but it gives the ILLUSION of being better, which was nice. It adds context to the world and makes it seem bigger than it actually is. Hopefully this game does something similar but grants you even more access. Would be nice (but arguably bad design) to let you INTO a dungeon you can't beat (first room CLEARLY denies you access, like zelda 1 w /ladder, for example).

My main concern is them making the world too open and eliminating the spokes, or making the spokes smaller and less complex like they were in OoT, MM, and TP. I have no problem with them connecting the spokes with a more interesting wheel, but I don't want a regression in complexity of the spokes. Unfortunately, the idea of "doing dungeons in any order" is scary for complexity in general for both the overworld and dungeons. It means everything has to be reachable with gear you start with or obtain from the hub.
 
What you're describing is the practice of dressing up interesting gameplay with scenarios that make thematical sense. In Nintendo games the gameplay mechanic comes first, then you find screenplay that fits with the idea.

And the gameplay mechanic in this case is "you go out into the world and you find different kinds of places."

As Shigeru Miyamoto himself stated, that idea - captured in gameplay - is the raison d'être for The Legend of Zelda series.

OoT is not open world, though. Hyrule Field is the open area and the areas you reach from Hyrule Field are not Hyrule Field are no different from the surface areas you reach from The Sky in Skyward Sword except they're much less complex.

I'd amend that to say "except they don't take an hour of tedium to get through."

The main difference between Hyrule Field in OoT and Hyrule Field in Zelda U is likely to be that instead of being spokes coming off of a central hub, the areas are likely to be embedded inside a giant seamless map. In other words, the space around what were previously "spokes" is going to be explorable space, likely with its own stuff to encounter and do and maybe even an atmosphere that matches or complements the "spoke."

As a consequence of this, the game is going to be open world because this kind of design allows for multiple ways to approach areas.

But do we really think that none of the areas we eventually reach in Zelda U are going to have any intricacy to them at all? That they're all going to be wide open areas? We already saw in The Game Awards footage that this isn't going to be the case, that some areas are going to start to tunnel off, particularly as you make an approach to a dungeon.

Some amendments to your points though:

- You see a bridge that crosses the river nearby the castle. After you cross the bridge, you see a staircase leading up towards a mountain. At the top of the staircase, there's a village that has a minigame you can do and a sidequest for spiders. You see a gate leading up to the mountain, but it's locked by a guard who refuses to let you pass without an official letter from Zelda.

It also has a graveyard with a song that changes the time of day, a lady who's lost her chickens, a windmill with a weirdo inside playing a weird song, a well, and a bunch of houses filled with characters and content that flesh out the world.

With the exception of the flavor stuff, everything there lays the groundwork for gameplay opportunities that will show up, sometimes immediately, sometimes later.

- You follow the river upstream...and realize you can't go much further than a few feet in because there's a boulder in the way and you need bombs.

At the beginning of the game, sure.

But we're talking about how the field functions as a kind of gameplay, not about whether the game developers did dumb things like place obstacles to enforce linearity in the places you can reach from the field.

- You notice that the grass is starting to taper off as you approach the west. You head further in that direction and it turns out there's a desert valley through which the river flows south that you can't do anything in until you are an adult.

I think we must have been playing different Ocarina of Times. I found plenty of stuff to do. My instinct to jump down into the river and see what was there was rewarded, as was my instinct to head up to the waterfall and see if there was anything behind it.

That's precisely what makes the whole "exploration" aspect of Zelda, without any "obstacle course"-like elements, so compelling. These elements are part of the world design, but they feel organic, not like puzzles with only the one predetermined solution.

- If you follow the river south, there's a gate you can't get past without a horse. To get to the lake you have to enter via Gerudo Valley or a warp door in Zora's Domain, neither of which are Hyrule Field. The warp from Zora's Domain hurts the feel of the world.

This is totally false. You can access Lake Hylia directly from Hyrule Field, as a child.

That you don't know how just underlines how much more there is to Hyrule Field and the "unguided exploration" approach than most people give it credit for.

You arrive in a vast desert. In the distance you can see a huge structure shaped like the Hylian crest. The area is enclosed by ancient ruins and rivers of quicksand, but eventually you realize the shells of the enemies can be used as rafts and bombs can be dropped from above with the beetle to create footholds. After overcoming the environment you reach the structure and discover that it's the temple of time.

Yes, but the "shells of the enemies can be used as footholds" thing was only interesting the first time I figured out I could do it. It no longer had any value after that.

The part where you're let off the leash a little and can find various mechanisms in the environment to open the dungeon was much better, but it would have been cooler if those were optional mini-dungeons with individual and worthwhile rewards instead.
 

IntelliHeath

As in "Heathcliff"
Someone told me that this thread is new place for people who are waiting for Z3lda. Here it's.

LDpTuqu.png
 

Gsnap

Member
What if it's actually a reboot of the first Zelda and is called simply The Legend of Zelda?

I don't know. Maybe they'll name it that for simplicity, but we've already seen plenty of stuff that is well beyond a reboot.
 

Anth0ny

Member
It'd be interesting to find out what kind of solutions they have for loading the world. Correct me if I'm wrong and are missing a bunch of good examples, but Nintendo aren't known for doing huge areas without loading times. Wind Waker is a good example of a game where the sea and its islands have basically none, but I mean, the sea itself doesn't have many objects so it can very seamlessly focus on loading islands as you get closer. So how they will approach loading towns with a bunch of NPCs in a good way will be interesting. Perhaps they'll make you go through some long, tight foggy ravine or something to reach the town, in order to give the engine some space to load it all.

I know people are gonna kill me for this but DARK SOULS doesn't seem to have a problem with it. And that was 2011, the same year Skyward Sword dropped. I sure hope a 2017 open world Zelda doesn't struggle with loading zones. I should be able to go from Hyrule Field to Kakariko Village to Death Mountain to the Fire Temple seamlessly, with only the music changing.

Hell, I'm pretty sure Star Fox Adventures did that back in 2002.
 
I know people are gonna kill me for this but DARK SOULS doesn't seem to have a problem with it. And that was 2011, the same year Skyward Sword dropped. I sure hope a 2017 open world Zelda doesn't struggle with loading zones. I should be able to go from Hyrule Field to Kakariko Village to Death Mountain to the Fire Temple seamlessly, with only the music changing.

Hell, I'm pretty sure Star Fox Adventures did that back in 2002.
Dark souls is a little bit different though.. DS style of games are one BIG Dungeon. Instead of a big open world.
 

Ansatz

Member
Using Ocarina of Time as an example of bad level design (big spaces devoid of "gameplay" design) and good level design (narrow spaces with platforming challenges) in the same post is kind of weird, since if anything this shows that these two design paradigms can both exist in the same game. (And with the critical and commercial acclaim Ocarina of Time received, that Zelda games require both paradigms to exist to be as successful as they should be.)

Plus, it's weird to argue that Ocarina of Time's Hyrule Field is bad game design to begin with, since there's no doubt that it was a huge part of the appeal of that game. Just like wide open spaces were a huge part of the appeal for games like Skyrim, Final Fantasy, and Xenoblade Chronicles, or even a puzzle-focused game like The Witness, which is pretty much the last example I think you could give of a game that's underdesigned.

The Witness is a terrible example because it's the only open world game I can think of that rewards exploration with meaningful gameplay (refering to +puzzles). It's one of the best games of all time if not the best. There is also a secondary purpose to the world, and that's the metroidvania structure but instead of items gating progress it's handled by pure player knowledge so there is lots of gameplay meaning behind the world. Beyond that you have perspective puzzles that aren't tracked by the game in any way, so there's alot to do in that small space.

Most RPGs have crappy overworlds and dungeon designs, one of the few that gets it right is the Golden Sun franchise. It's very similar to Zelda in that there is a ton of environmental interaction in the game, and the actions you perform outside combat are directly related to your combat spells which is just brilliant. For example a wind attack in combat can be used to blow leaves in the real world which reveals a hidden passage, or use a freeze attack on water to turn it into ice which then can be used as a platform, etc. Whereas games like FF have absolutely dreadful level design because dungeons amount to simple mazes with the odd chest casually sitting there at a dead end and isn't involved in some challenge or puzzle of any kind. I don't find much appeal in that type of game.

This is fun level design in an RPG:



 

Diffense

Member
What I'm learning from this thread is that some people don't consider exploration and discovery to be "meaningful gameplay". I think it is, along with puzzles and combat. I love stumbling into secrets without a tell-tale "Puzzle Here" so you know you'll get a reward. Zelda needs to have a mix. The area in Skyward Sword that you could freely explore was somewhat underwhelming so hopefully they improve on that for the next game.
 
The Witness is a terrible example because it's the only open world game I can think of that rewards exploration with meaningful gameplay (refering to +puzzles).

Zelda games also frequently do this, but with secrets in the overworld. This isn't always a product of "intricate level design"; sometimes it's just noticing that there's a post that you can hookshot onto or disturbed ground that you can dig into to reach a hidden grotto. While Zelda secrets are obviously are much crappier than The Witness's (and the way they intersect with visual/level design even moreso, because The Witness has a simple but very expandable methodology for interacting with things), I don't see why it's a terrible example.

On the Golden Sun point...I'd say most of the dungeons/caves/forests/mountains in Golden Sun games are on par with the dungeons/caves in Final Fantasy games (not looking at the NES games, of course). They're maze-like with occasional things you have to manipulate to change the dungeon in some way. The mechanics are obviously different and more involved, but the designs really aren't.

But then I'd also argue that intricate dungeon design and puzzles aren't strong selling points in these kinds of genres, and were never the real reason why games like Zelda and Golden Sun were successful.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Going by this thread Zelda should just be dungeon, loading screen, dungeon, loading screen, dungeon, loading screen, dungeon, the end. Why wasting time with beautiful environments and discovery.
 
Skyward Sword achieved a mechanically rich world without making it look like a playground.

Not at all. They managed to nullify the absolute basics of world design introduced by OoT. No real day/night cycle, hub areas, no towns, areas feeling small and unnatural... SS is pretty much a ,,what if OoT failed to actually set standards". But that's modern Nintendo for you. Cancelling the standards they themselves set for 3D gaming back in the day.
 

Gsnap

Member
Hopefully Zelda U takes the best and puts it together in a meaningful way. Yeah, I enjoy the more interactive nature of Skyward Sword's world, but I also enjoy having some breathing room and beautiful views. Not enough games do both. But seeing as how it's going to be the biggest and most detailed world they've made, it's gonna be really hard to pull off.

But there are ways to make wide open space meaningful outside of just seeing the sites and exploring. Maybe an important plot point in the game will make use of the wide open fields by having an enemy army assault castle town, and link has to ride out there on horseback to defeat their war machines. Maybe the seasons can change, adding twice the amount of content to the wide spaces without needing to fill the geometry with puzzles at all times. Maybe the game has an ability as ubiquitous as the wall-cling from LBW, giving each space the potential for something more. Even though it won't always amount to more, the potential could be there. No idea what that would be for such a large world, but maybe they could pull it off.

But the main thing I think is important is to have pockets of areas with high levels of interactivity, and to then just fill in the cracks with areas of low level interactivity and connect them seamlessly. Some areas can only be entered from one direction, some can be entered from anywhere. Some connect to each other via higher areas like cliffs or bridges. Some connect via underground tunnels or dungeons. The most important thing is to connect them in a variety of way with some space in the middle where the player doesn't have to stress and can unwind.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Dark souls is a little bit different though.. DS style of games are one BIG Dungeon. Instead of a big open world.

DS open world mimics the original LOZ and LTTP overworld. They were just a big dungeon too, when you think about it.

Consoles now have the power to replicate that in glorious 3D, instead of big empty fields like the N64 days. Dark Souls is already there, it's about time Zelda joined the party.
 
But the main thing I think is important is to have pockets of areas with high levels of interactivity, and to then just fill in the cracks with areas of low level interactivity and connect them seamlessly. Some areas can only be entered from one direction, some can be entered from anywhere. Some connect to each other via higher areas like cliffs or bridges. Some connect via underground tunnels or dungeons. The most important thing is to connect them in a variety of way with some space in the middle where the player doesn't have to stress and can unwind.

I really like this description.
 
Going by this thread Zelda should just be dungeon, loading screen, dungeon, loading screen, dungeon, loading screen, dungeon, the end. Why wasting time with beautiful environments and discovery.

I think people are asking for constant complexity in every aspect of the game. I don't really agree with that notion. I think good pacing in Zelda games is balanced by degrees of higher intensity puzzles and combat mixed with lower intensity sidequesting and exploration. What it should avoid in the exploration aspect is it becoming too simple. However, the issue in traditional open world structure is the relative flatness of every given object. Pathfinding isn't too interesting if you can literally get to anywhere from any angle. Because you'd just take a straight line. Thus exploration tends to be something that the player happens to be distracted with rather than a goal of the game's design.

This can be solved however, through meaningful elevation, Dark Souls uses this quite well in fact. Elevation begs the question, "How do I get up there?" The result is the player understanding the location around them and actually pathfinding. Believe it or not, this should be considered a puzzle in its own right, and I think it's what Aounuma was referring to at E3 2014.

But the main thing I think is important is to have pockets of areas with high levels of interactivity, and to then just fill in the cracks with areas of low level interactivity and connect them seamlessly. Some areas can only be entered from one direction, some can be entered from anywhere. Some connect to each other via higher areas like cliffs or bridges. Some connect via underground tunnels or dungeons. The most important thing is to connect them in a variety of way with some space in the middle where the player doesn't have to stress and can unwind.

Beaten?
 

Ansatz

Member
But then I'd also argue that intricate dungeon design and puzzles aren't strong selling points in these kinds of genres, and were never the real reason why games like Zelda and Golden Sun were successful.

Well yeah that's what it comes down to, Nintendo forced to conform to market realities and consumer expectation of certain genres. People like me are in the minority and will have to inevitably settle for indie games in the future when Nintendo converts. Right now Nintendo is the last major player that offers the kind of games I'm into.

When Miyamoto stripped Paper Mario of all its elements, we were left with what they consider the absolute essentials of the Paper Mario series. To no surprise most people here hate it while I love it because everything that's vital from the original PM64 game is still intact.

The fact that Nintendo released Skyward Sword when the competition had Skyrim is a direct sign of where Nintendo's priorities lie. It's very clear to me that Nintendo's design preferences are aligned with mine, and why they struggle to maintain mainstream relevance.
 
Well yeah that's what it comes down to, Nintendo forced to conform to market realities and consumer expectation of certain genres. People like me are in the minority and will have to inevitably settle for indie games in the future when Nintendo converts. Right now Nintendo is the last major player that offer sthe kind of games I'm into.

When Miyamoto stripped Paper Mario of all its elements, we were left with what they consider the absolute essentials of the Paper Mario series. To no surprise most people here hate it while I love it because everything that's vital from the original PM64 game is still intact.

The fact that Nintendo released Skyward Sword when the competition had Skyrim is a direct sign of where Nintendo's priorities lie. It's very clear to me that Nintendo's design preferences are aligned with mine, and why they struggle to maintain mainstream relevance.

Except I think what is "essential" to a series is largely subjective. What you desire is not what someone else desires.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
I think people are asking for constant complexity in every aspect of the game. I don't really agree with that notion. I think good pacing in Zelda games is balanced by degrees of higher intensity puzzles and combat mixed with lower intensity sidequesting and exploration. What it should avoid in the exploration aspect is it becoming too simple. However, the issue in traditional open world structure is the relative flatness of every given object. Pathfinding isn't too interesting if you can literally get to anywhere from any angle. Because you'd just take a straight line. Thus exploration tends to be something that the player happens to be distracted with rather than a goal of the game's design.

This can be solved however, through meaningful elevation, Dark Souls uses this quite well in fact. Elevation begs the question, "How do I get up there?" The result is the player understanding the location around them and actually pathfinding. Believe it or not, this should be considered a puzzle in its own right, and I think it's what Aounuma was referring to at E3 2014.

Xenoblade X has a beautiful open world design, to the point that the first part of the game can be played as a stealth-platformer. So the knowledge is in house and Monolith Soft helps with Zelda, so I don't see why the assumption should be that the world design will be bad. Vast open world doesn't equal large empty flat field.
 

Ansatz

Member
But the main thing I think is important is to have pockets of areas with high levels of interactivity, and to then just fill in the cracks with areas of low level interactivity and connect them seamlessly.

That's exactly what I've been arguing they'll likely do since the 2014 reveal. Named areas like "Zora's River" contain all the meaningful gameplay interactions while the overworld which we've seen in the footage, if we call it the "wilds" will have your typical open world repetitive gameplay systems.

It's essentially Wind Waker again, but replace the sea with grass and the kind of red lions with epona, and the pockets of areas are the actual islands.

The problem is the sheer size of the world this time around, and the likely emphasis on various overworld activities. At least I hope they somehow mitigate travel time and let me easily bypass all the side activities.
 
Well yeah that's what it comes down to, Nintendo forced to conform to market realities and consumer expectation of certain genres.

Let me rephrase:

I think Zelda was more like the kind of game consumers now expect back in the 80s. It's actually really well documented that Zelda took inspiration from Ultima, an open-world computer RPG. Zelda was also marketed and received as an RPG, albeit a new kind of RPG that only Nintendo could produce because of their pedigree making arcade games and arcade-like console games.

I do not think Zelda has been that kind of game throughout the 2000s and 2010s. I think instead it was more like Aonuma's Marvelous, which while partially inspired by A Link to the Past is really a very different kind of game.

I think that Zelda U is a realignment with the current market pulse, sure, but I also think it is (or should be; I don't necessarily trust Eiji Aonuma, the man who said he didn't want to make a game like LoZ because he didn't care for it) an alignment with what Zelda used to be.

In that sense, it's less that Zelda is conforming and more that at some point Zelda's developers decided to completely change its identity in an experiment that basically failed. I think Zelda has basically been leaving the growth in the open-world console RPG market - which it should have been taking advantage of all along since that's a genre Nintendo pioneered, with the Zelda series - on the table, and they can no longer just let their developers do whatever they want, fuck customer tastes, with their current popularity/financial situation.

If they do open-world Zelda right, it won't resemble Skyrim so much as it will completely destroy Skyrim because all of its gameplay systems will be better, while still delivering on all the stuff that makes a good open-world role-playing game. That's what Zelda did in the 80s, after all.
 

daakusedo

Member
I said it years ago, they gonna build upon the sea of sand.
An open environment to travel between intricate gameplay zones well included within the world.
The frequency of them is to be determined now given the size of Hyrule.
If it's too sparse, I think it's not gonna work well like this skyward sword area.
 
Top Bottom