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[ElBoxyBrown]

This whole talk of bikini armor reminds me of what Gail Simone (comic book writer and current writer for Red Sonja) said about Red Sonja's bikini armor.
http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2013/05/quote-of-the-day-gail-simone-on-red-sonja/

Her main arguments about the bikini armor is that she is fine with Sonja wearing it as long as artist don't try to apply fan service to it. She has said this a lot on her tumblr and other interviews but I can't find them at the moment. There is a difference between this....

and this...

 

[SerTapTap]

Calling what that guy wears "male sexy armor" is pretty absurd. Number A, he's wearing a BIB. A fucking bib. IS he a baby? Does he spill things when he eats? Would straight-up look better shirtless, which should be a solid hint that the main problem is NOT sexualisation.

Anyway, let's look at a vaguely similar but actually good design:

So, Kamina is actually wearing LESS clothes than Bib Man here,but looks far less ridiculous. Probably because he's not pretending to wear armor, the arms/legs in full plate mail is really weird on the FF dude. It's almost like the opposite of bikini armor, covering everything BUT his chest which IMO looks even more ridiculous. There's actually a slight attempt at being armored here but it fails horribly and absurdly, bikini chainmail isn't trying at all.

Only thing I guess you could say is Kamina isn't going for the sort of feminine look, but hell look at almost any mainline Final Fantasy male main character for a better example of slightly feminine done better. To wit, I can't at present think of a worse main character design within the Final Fantasy universe. Though I'm aware plenty of people complain about them and I don't usually agree (I agree big time with bib-dude though).

For instance, Kuja above is supposed to look elegant, NOT warrior-like and "otherworldly"

Spoiler

because he is

, I don't think his design looks too bad considering what they're going for. He's also narcissistic and as a sort of military leader with godlike abilities practicality isn't a huge concern.

 

[AlucardGV]

It just occurred to me, that when I saw the trailer for Brianna Wus game a while ago, one of the characters stuck out to me.


Now, her game takes place on a space station. In space. Now, she made this blog post to point out the hypocrisy of people getting upset over the male armor that looks horribly designed but....her game has a one piece suit outfit for one of the characters? That seems to have a pivotal role in the game? In space?

Not saying she's a hypocrite but...yeah. Double standards.

are you seriously saying that you never saw astronauts wearing latex and bikinis?

....me neither


Anyway, whatever. you guys keep screaming that cidney doesn't look like a real mechanic. well gues what, she's fiction, as gladioulus is a fictional bodyguard. he doesn't look like a bodyguard, uh?
cidney is a trope, she's wrench wench

 

[butman]

This should be at least the minimum of armor for a woman.

 

[Tunahead]

There are worse things shown at real fashion shows. Just admit you are uncomfortable.

I certainly am! It's the weird huge Liefeldian thighs. It's just such an unbalanced design. It's like a diving suit with enormous elbow pads, which is incidentally also something that probably exists in a Japanese video game.

 

[AlucardGV]

This should be at least the minimum of armor for a woman.

wasp waist. can't breath, can't move.
not that i care, she's not really breathing and i love berserk

 

[woopWOOP]

That butt armor's hilarious.

Final Fantasy always had some weird, impractical clothing going on here 'n there. I'm alright with this.

 

[Ratrat]

Calling what that guy wears "male sexy armor" is pretty absurd. Number A, he's wearing a BIB. A fucking bib. IS he a baby? Does he spill things when he eats? Would straight-up look better shirtless, which should be a solid hint that the main problem is NOT sexualisation.

Anyway, let's look at a vaguely similar but actually good design:

Its not even remotely similar. Sexualization is not just about showing skin. Kamina is not meant to be the male-Yuko wank material. This FF character kind of is.

I certainly am! It's the weird huge Liefeldian thighs. It's just such an unbalanced design. It's like a diving suit with enormous elbow pads, which is incidentally also something that probably exists in a Japanese video game.

And every western fantasy game.

 

[MacNille]

Somethings can be degrading and offensive when they originate outside a group and empowering when they originate inside a group.

For example, the 'n-word'.

Not saying that is definitely the case here, but it probably could be argued.

I call bullshit on this. This is not like the n-word.

 

[Tunahead]

And every western fantasy game.

[citation needed]

 

[John Kowalski]

So, Kamina is actually wearing LESS clothes than Bib Man here,but looks far less ridiculous. Probably because he's not pretending to wear armor, the arms/legs in full plate mail is really weird on the FF dude. It's almost like the opposite of bikini armor, covering everything BUT his chest which IMO looks even more ridiculous. There's actually a slight attempt at being armored here but it fails horribly and absurdly, bikini chainmail isn't trying at all.

lol, that worked for him alright

 

[Kinyou]

lol, that worked for him alright

And then there's Simon who's outfit is actually more ridiculous than the one in the OP

 

[Kinyou]

New Post on the blog

We the Dudebros now.

 

[Khayam]

This should be at least the minimum of armor for a woman.

After they had a masectomy, yes.

 

[Freshmaker]

You could post nearly any Soul Caliber female character design and I'm sure it wouldn't get the same comments. Sigh.

I take it you've never looked at a Soulcalibur announce thread. Sigh.

 

[SerTapTap]

You could post nearly any Soul Caliber female character design and I'm sure it wouldn't get the same comments. Sigh.

Did you see the Lucky Chloe thread for Tekken 7?

New Post on the blog



We the Dudebros now.

Couldn't disagree with that post more. Bishounen are supposed to look...good? I do not agree that wearing a bib is "natural progression" for anything but a fetus

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Am I really the last person on earth who thinks of this when people talk about witches?
http://www.wpclipart.com/holiday/halloween/witch/witches_5/witch_with_warts_flying_T.png

Cause that quote really weirded me out way more than it should have.

Well, witches have never been real, so like dragons, you can imagine them however you like, whether it's old crones or sexy seductive succubi or whatever. Male wizards never seem to be sexy and seductive and always wear long overflowing robes though, so there is that. But yeah I don't get this obsession to sexualize women in every single context, including one where it doesn't make any fucking sense to sexualize them (wearing protective gear for combat).

 

[Fehyd]

Actually, talked to an SCA friend of mine, and apparently boob plate isn't that uncommon.

Not boob-plate truthfully, but she built it herself. A very talented fighter as well.

Custom built, and apparently meets SCA regulations. Different versions of this type of breastplate are available from different armoursmiths.

Full plate with cups in the breast plate. (I can't find much info about this as the armoursmith who built it had a website which is now defunct).

Apparently the only thing required beyond what applies to normal armour in the SCA rulebook is that the breast "cups" can not be separate from the breastplate.

So uh, yes, there are cases of women fighting in the SCA with boobplates and not cracking their sternums when they fall forward.

These armors weren't created "for the male gaze" either, as actual real women wanted these created and have fought in them.

The sheer amount of it in fantasy is a bit problematic, but I don't think we can out and out discount it as NOT PRACTICAL, especially if its legal in the SCA, and fighters have actually worn the stuff at a high level of competition.

 

[Tye The Czar]

Criticism is fine, but calling everything criticism is also wrong. A large portion of people have been calling things like bikini armor sexist and offensive. These terms refer to something harmful, and the moment you are calling something harmful you are calling for its existence to be snuffed out.

If someone really believes that then thats their prerogative, however calling that criticism is wrong.

On the other hand, those just saying they dont like the design, they would prefer to see X, then yes that is criticism.

Source: http://xkcd.com/1357/

 

[freddy]

Source: http://xkcd.com/1357/

That only works when it's the majority who are showing you the door not a small, loud percentage screaming GTFO!!

 

[hooijdonk17]

Actually, talked to an SCA friend of mine, and apparently boob plate isn't that uncommon.

Not boob-plate truthfully, but she built it herself. A very talented fighter as well.

Custom built, and apparently meets SCA regulations. Different versions of this type of breastplate are available from different armoursmiths.

Full plate with cups in the breast plate. (I can't find much info about this as the armoursmith who built it had a website which is now defunct).

Apparently the only thing required beyond what applies to normal armour in the SCA rulebook is that the breast "cups" can not be separate from the breastplate.

So uh, yes, there are cases of women fighting in the SCA with boobplates and not cracking their sternums when they fall forward.

These armors weren't created "for the male gaze" either, as actual real women wanted these created and have fought in them.

The sheer amount of it in fantasy is a bit problematic, but I don't think we can out and out discount it as NOT PRACTICAL, especially if its legal in the SCA, and fighters have actually worn the stuff at a high level of competition.

SCA is not exactly scientific recreation; the main problem with boob armor is not that it would break the sternum in case of a fall, it's that the armor actually guides any thrusting weapon to the body's most vital spot, the heart. It's impractical and dumb.

 

[Freshmaker]

SCA is not exactly scientific recreation; the main problem with boob armor is not that it would break the sternum in case of a fall, it's that the armor actually guides any thrusting weapon to the body's most vital spot, the heart. It's impractical and dumb.

It can also restrict arm movement which isn't especially useful if one plans to use a sword.

 

[Lime]

That only works when it's the majority who are showing you the door not a small, loud percentage screaming GTFO!!

yeah fuck people's feelings and experiences if they don't constitute a large arbitrary number of individuals.

You realize you are basically arguing against minority rights, right? And that's even granting the ridiculous "loud vocal minority" claim you're making, which you have no evidence for.

 

[Haly]

I don't like the ass region but everything else is fine to me.

 

[Zaptruder]

SCA is not exactly scientific recreation; the main problem with boob armor is not that it would break the sternum in case of a fall, it's that the armor actually guides any thrusting weapon to the body's most vital spot, the heart. It's impractical and dumb.

Utility is never the only consideration in the design of arms and armour.

 

[HyperBitHero]

One of the greatest fights in gaming history.

Yakuza Ishin Bath House Fight

(this really has nothing to do with bikini armor, but seeing so many asses made me think of this)

 

[Finaika]

Her main arguments about the bikini armor is that she is fine with Sonja wearing it as long as artist don't try to apply fan service to it. She has said this a lot on her tumblr and other interviews but I can't find them at the moment. There is a difference between this....

and this...

Thisss.

 

[roknin]

New Post on the blog



We the Dudebros now.

.....yeah I disagree with that post.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[hurricanes]

Oh my... How did I miss this?

All those "Only work for female" defense forces, I should have known better.

But to be fair this is bad... so are 9/10 sexualized female designs. So there's that.

 

[Sai-kun]

The designers of this character should look into the Andrew Christian clothing brand to get a real feel for male sexualization without looking as stupid as this dude does.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Heck, It looks like the blog post stereotypes all the 'bad design' folks as being ok if this was female design.

It fails to consider that many of the folks who don't like this one don't care for 'sexy' female designs as well, or don't criticize those.

 

[Hours Left]

The designers of this character should look into the Andrew Christian clothing brand to get a real feel for male sexualization without looking as stupid as this dude does.

I find Andrew Christian stuff is cut weird. Sometimes the models look, uh, more "petite" than they should.

I'd prefer more of Rufskin look personally.

 

[Sai-kun]

I find Andrew Christian stuff is cut weird. Sometimes the models look, uh, more "petite" than they should.

I'd prefer more of Rufskin look personally.

The weirdness of it is why I think it'd fit into an FF game pretty easy hahaha

 

[hooijdonk17]

Utility is never the only consideration in the design of arms and armour.

Aside from things like ceremonial coats of arms, I have no idea what this means. Armor is a tool of war, it has to be utilitarian.

 

[Turin]

The weirdness of it is why I think it'd fit into an FF game pretty easy hahaha

It depends on which Final Fantasy tbh.

 

[Hours Left]

The weirdness of it is why I think it'd fit into an FF game pretty easy hahaha

The briefs make you look like you have no hips, like the were made for mannequins. Also causes unfortunate pencil-esque side effects. >_>

 

[Ratrat]

[citation needed]

Just eyes.

The designers of this character should look into the Andrew Christian clothing brand to get a real feel for male sexualization without looking as stupid as this dude does.

I just checked his website and could not disagree more. That's just straight up strip club with nothing of the fantastical.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Just eyes.

Honestly, I couldn't think of any game containing diving suits with enormous elbow pads, much less a Western one.

 

[Ratrat]

Honestly, I couldn't think of any game containing diving suits with enormous elbow pads, much less a Western one.

And here I thought giant pauldrons were a staple of shitty armor designs.

 

[Zaptruder]

Aside from things like ceremonial coats of arms, I have no idea what this means. Armor is a tool of war, it has to be utilitarian.

In the context of media representations.

And often even in functional situations.

e.g. battlefield uniforms, especially in the industrial era.

Moreover, utility is perceived in different ways; protective utility is not the only consideration. Psychological utility may play a role; which explains the Samurai's demon face mask.

In the context of this discussion... boob plate is largely a feature of media representation of female plated armor. But it can also provide real wearer's various psychological advantages, including but not limited to things like feeling elegant, or the armor is better tailored to them. While you can dispute the value of these utilities, one cannot outright dismiss their value to other beholders.

Ultimately in the greater context, boob plate is fairly innocuous... has been until this last year where the lens of examination has turned on the gaming industry and a narrow subset has turned onto this notion. This movement may cause it to fall out of fashion if it is vociferous and broad enough. But a great deal of that is independent of the value and merit of the idea/notion of boob plate.

 

[Morokh]

I love it when people try to highlight stupid comments by others when making an equally stupid one, if not worse ....

The thing is, we’re waaaaay past the “badly designed sexy female armor” quota, so there’s lots of “badly designed sexy male armor” quota to meet.

This whole talk of bikini armor reminds me of what Gail Simone (comic book writer and current writer for Red Sonja) said about Red Sonja's bikini armor.
http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2013/05/quote-of-the-day-gail-simone-on-red-sonja/

Her main arguments about the bikini armor is that she is fine with Sonja wearing it as long as artist don't try to apply fan service to it. She has said this a lot on her tumblr and other interviews but I can't find them at the moment. There is a difference between this....

and this...

I'd say there is nothing particularly wrong with having the second design, granted that it's not the only representation, of the character, or of female characters in general (which nowadays tends to be the case, which exactly is the issue)
You just have to keep in mind, always, and from any point of view, that it's just a fantasy, and that it's not to be considered anything else than that.

That FF character design is the same, I personally don't particularly like it, but I can see it fit in a FF setting considering how the style of the series has evolved in recent years.

Then once again, context matters, I see people bitching about how unrealistic and non-practical his outfit is because of what seem to be 'floating' pieces of his outfit around his knees, yet again, in the FF universe, I don't really see the problem as it tries everything but to try to be realistic outside of some elements to make the world somewhat 'believable'.
Now put that kind of outfit in a world that's way more based on a more realistic vision of things like, say Dark Souls, then we would be having a completely different conversation.

All in all, 'good' or 'bad' design will always be subjective.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

And here I thought giant pauldrons were a staple of shitty armor designs.

I know that, but on a diving suit?

 

[Ratrat]

I know that, but on a diving suit?

Given that the sci-fi/fantasy fusion is more or less restricted to Japan would you take being buck naked instead?

 

[Gokurakumaru]

yeah fuck people's feelings and experiences if they don't constitute a large arbitrary number of individuals.

You realize you are basically arguing against minority rights, right? And that's even granting the ridiculous "loud vocal minority" claim you're making, which you have no evidence for.

Ironic, considering the point of the comic is that no such "rights" exist and neither someone saying something you don't like nor someone ignoring what you have to say is a violation of said rights.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Given that the sci-fi/fantasy fusion is more or less restricted to Japan would you take being buck naked instead?

Ee, as opposed to what? I shall admit now I'm lost in this conversation. I simply want to know whether there is actually a game containing diving suits with enormous elbow pads.

 

[Messofanego]

One of the greatest fights in gaming history.

Yakuza Ishin Bath House Fight

(this really has nothing to do with bikini armor, but seeing so many asses made me think of this)

lol crotch clouds

 

[Gokurakumaru]

.....yeah I disagree with that post.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

She's a hypocrite. Big surprise.

glatingloben asked: What if I just think Final Fantasy has bad costume design in general, regardless of sex? Or damn near any Square game? Is it okay to think that?

Seems to me it’s okay to think that, especially since we very much agree that FF has LOTS of horrendous female costumes to offer as well.
But it’s not so fine if you only voice that opinion with the male characters.

This is straight out of the feminist play book. Enlist Internet white knights to fight your battles for you, because heaven forbid someone should find out that this won't happen of its own volition, spearheaded by that 50% audience of female gamers we keep hearing about. The fact that nobody had to start a Twitter campaign to mobilize GAFfers into complaining about the character design speaks volumes about the legitimacy of her analogy.

For the record I think Square should keep the design, regardless of backlash. Developers should make the game they want to make and designers should design what they want to design. Players got over Tidus and Vaan, they'll get over this.

 

[Lime]

Ironic, considering the point of the comic is that no such "rights" exist and neither someone saying something you don't like nor someone ignoring what you have to say is a violation of said rights.

There are other rights than legal rights you know.

Besides, freddy's premise that complaints are only valid depending on the amount of people voicing them is incredibly flawed in itself, and should be intuitively evident.

 

[Principate]

Aside from things like ceremonial coats of arms, I have no idea what this means. Armor is a tool of war, it has to be utilitarian.

No it doesn't. What is your understanding of the middle ages exactly? In order to wear armour you had to be very rich generally, suits of Armour were status symbols as much as anything with plenty of experimentation by the individuals themselves, most were built for practically many weren't, same with swords, of course these knights tended to die in combat but there's evidence we have of the period that everyone wasn't so utilitarian.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Ironic, considering the point of the comic is that no such "rights" exist and neither someone saying something you don't like nor someone ignoring what you have to say is a violation of said rights.

Please define what you mean by "rights," here.

As per the comic, Lime was basically saying that people have rights to yell at and boycott you if they think that you're an asshole.