The comic is about what women find sexy. The original comic says it's a cutey Batman, the other one says, no it's actually abs and chest muscles.The romance novel comparison is asinine. 40 year old women have a specific niche genre aimed at them, so guess it's okay that pretty much every other popular medium caters to young men.
Romance Novels are comparable to say, games like Senran Kagura. They aren't comparable to the industry as a whole, which is where that image pops up in defense of nearly every time.
Kuja's personality matches his outfit though so to me it didn't stand out too much.Was Itahana (Mevius' character designer) responsible for Kuja's design in FFIX?
I know he's listed with two others as the character designers for that game.
It just occurred to me, that when I saw the trailer for Brianna Wus game a while ago, one of the characters stuck out to me.
Now, her game takes place on a space station. In space. Now, she made this blog post to point out the hypocrisy of people getting upset over the male armor that looks horribly designed but....her game has a one piece suit outfit for one of the characters? That seems to have a pivotal role in the game? In space?
Not saying she's a hypocrite but...yeah. Double standards.
Somethings can be degrading and offensive when they originate outside a group and empowering when they originate inside a group.
For example, the 'n-word'.
Not saying that is definitely the case here, but it probably could be argued.
True. But I remember in one of the recent Bayonetta threads, some of the discussions ignored the fact that she was created by a female designer and went straight to the throat.
True. But I remember in one of the recent Bayonetta threads, some of the discussions ignored the fact that she was created by a female designer and went straight to the throat.
i know but isn't there still "male oversight"(right word?) at the end? Same can be said about Soul Calibur.
I could be mistaken, but I believe that character designers are contracted to design characters to a certain specification, and obviously require approval for the final design. How much input a character designer actually has on the sexualization/objectification of a character probably varies considerably from case to case.
i know but isn't there still "male oversight"(right word?) at the end? Same can be said about Soul Calibur.
Don't take it so seriously. I just don't like the design.Now I can't tell if you are being sarcastic (which if you are COMPLETELY DISREGARD THIS) but if you actually mean that, are you saying the following "I don't like X, people who do like X are bad and should feel bad" aka Shaming someone for their taste (especially in art which is that to the beholder) which isn't seen as a good act towards their peers?
I can't think of any intelligent way it can be argued.Somethings can be degrading and offensive when they originate outside a group and empowering when they originate inside a group.
For example, the 'n-word'.
Not saying that is definitely the case here, but it probably could be argued.
Reading up on some interviews, the lead designer of Bayonetta states that Kamiya had 3 points he wanted filled out, but she decided for her to have long legs for one thing,(For the first game) and looking at the concept art taht she did,(For the 2nd game) the final design is very close to it.
So while Kamiya might've written off on it and said 'ok', alot of it seems to be her design.
Edit-This is getting a bit off topic as Bayonetta doesn't fit the mold, but having to jump hurdles to somehow figure out that in the end Bayonetta is 100% sexualized by a male is...a bit much, no? A man can make a female character that is deemed respectful whilst being sexy just as much as a woman can. I simply brought up Bayonetta because you were giving a double standard to a one piece swimsuit like outfit being 'empowering' when done by a woman, but when a woman designed Bayonetta, you try to write it off as 'Well a man had to sign off on it'.
I saw Brianna Wu mention this blog post just now... and then I saw... the comments are from here!
http://bikiniarmorbattledamage.tumblr.com/post/106906034228/wtf-is-he-wearing-ewwww-that-design
Do you agree the comments are silly, GAF? Or that the blog arguments are silly?
Most people's problem with Bayonetta isn't actually her outfit so much.
Pretty much most of the gripes I have seen have been with the constantly absurd camera angles.
Basically the common sentiment I've seen is "Cool a smart sexy competent female character who owns and uses her sexuality oh wait now I am 3 inches from her crotch/buttcrack this isn't great."
From page one of this thread you see people talking about the "Ban this Sexy filth" strawman of an argument which in reality pretty much nobody is making.
It is entirely possible to be sexy without being exploitative. I imagine Brianna would argue that what she's going for with her characters, and most people feel Bayonetta skirts that line, usually with the camera-work pushing it over.
Basically, yeah Bayonetta's character designer was a lady and she made, in a vacuum, a cool sexy character who owns it and is cool.
But Bayonetta's cinematics directors, from what I can find, are not ladies, and it shows.
All this is not to say you have to be a lady to not be sexist about a female character in a game, but the chances are certainly far better.
From page one of this thread you see people talking about the "Ban this Sexy filth" strawman of an argument which in reality pretty much nobody is making.
I think we need to hammer home the fact that most people aren't actually saying this and brutally mock anyone who actually thinks Criticism = Censorship.
You give humans too much credit. Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed in life.I think we need to hammer home the fact that most people aren't actually saying this and brutally mock anyone who actually thinks Criticism = Censorship.
That does look kinda sexy, but man winter is gonna be rough for the poor fellow.
The thing is, were waaaaay past the badly designed sexy female armor quota, so theres lots of badly designed sexy male armor quota to meet. And until balance of the two is restored, I dont really think anyone is in the position to request male sexyness to be up to some arbitrary design quality standard.
What is this argument? Is the wrtier claiming that if we get enough badly designed male armor that it will "make up" for the badly designed female armor or something? That it'll make the female armor screwups "okay"?
I hear that outfit is the latest in anti cold tech.
Criticism is fine, but calling everything criticism is also wrong. A large portion of people have been calling things like bikini armor sexist and offensive. These terms refer to something harmful, and the moment you are calling something harmful you are calling for its existence to be snuffed out.I think we need to hammer home the fact that most people aren't actually saying this and brutally mock anyone who actually thinks Criticism = Censorship.
That argument was actually made in the thread I linked, but the counter argument was that Bayonetta as a character knew fully well where those cameras were and would actively pose for it-It was simply being in character for her to pose at these cameras. You can see the way she treats other characters in the game that her personality is a dominating one that knows she has an amazing body, and she plays it up for the camera as well for the way she acts in game. She's not being belittled by these camera angles, she's actively owning them and alot of her poses in the game, whether or not the camera zooms in on it, are her showing off her sexy body.
We can argue whether she has agency or not, but the way she's presented in game is that she's very much in control within game. She's an extremely strong female character. I could see a problem if she was a submissive character who wasn't actively in control in game, and the camera zoomed in while she was being weak, but she's not.
I think that's the greatest thing anyone can be taught, man or woman-That YOU are in control of your body, and to own it. Bayonetta definitely gives off that vibe.
Criticism is fine, but calling everything criticism is also wrong. A large portion of people have been calling things like bikini armor sexist and offensive. These terms refer to something harmful, and the moment you are calling something harmful you are calling for its existence to be snuffed out.
If someone really believes that then thats their prerogative, however calling that criticism is wrong.
On the other hand, those just saying they dont like the design, they would prefer to see X, then yes that is criticism.
Criticism is fine, but calling everything criticism is also wrong. A large portion of people have been calling things like bikini armor sexist and offensive. These terms refer to something harmful, and the moment you are calling something harmful you are calling for its existence to be snuffed out.
If someone really believes that then thats their prerogative, however calling that criticism is wrong.
On the other hand, those just saying they dont like the design, they would prefer to see X, then yes that is criticism.
That's the thing though. All those things you mentioned are great and are the parts of her character that are good and are widely celebrated.
But assigning agency to a video game character is already a wonky subject that is much deeper than this discussion here and I think somehow layering control and agency over the game camera into that discussion gets even more iffy.
I can definitely see where you're coming from. Hell there's a move where she dances shooting everywhere and then explicitly poses for the camera (complete with camera flash and shutter click) but I feel like that's the exception rather than the rule.
In a game as self-aware as that I can certainly see the argument that Bayonetta as a character is meant to be aware of the camera and is explicitly acting for it. But even given that assumption, the camerawork often goes beyond the pale and ceases to be something that can be argued is an element of her agency. Times where she's very clearly not posing but the camera takes the opportunity anyway.
Like I said it's a far deeper discussion than it first appears, but I hope this has at least given you some insight, from someone who finds this subject interesting and has read a lot of takes on it, that it's a far more complex situation than just "Sexy Character #1 Good. Sexy Character #2 Bad?! Checkmate Feminism!"
It's definitely a difficult discussion. It's like...if we come to the consensus that any female character without any agency is considered to be slightly sexist or offensive or whatnot when portrayed in a sexual way, does that mean any female character written or created by a male fits this spectrum? Are there ranges on whether we'd find it offensive if they act too liberally, or not offensive if conservative?
It's...it's definitely a tangent from the present discussion, and it's definitely a discussion to be had another day. I feel we can both agree though that Bayonetta as a character, is a very strong character in terms of personality and dominant instead of submissive.
That seems like a very dangerous can of worms to open.
That seems like slightly misguided logic.Criticism is fine, but calling everything criticism is also wrong. A large portion of people have been calling things like bikini armor sexist and offensive. These terms refer to something harmful, and the moment you are calling something harmful you are calling for its existence to be snuffed out.
If someone really believes that then thats their prerogative, however calling that criticism is wrong.
On the other hand, those just saying they dont like the design, they would prefer to see X, then yes that is criticism.
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I think i even made a similar point to her's in the thread.
However i will never be cool with the idea of "non-practical design = bad design".
If i were, i couldn't enjoy and even love the extravagant look Tarsem movies have, for that very reason.
You need to see the armour from behind to see what got people going
Its almost like they isolated themselves for thousands of years, then had nuclear bombs dropped on two civilian centers.
Odd part you highlighted as I was talking about the design, which is not in any way a person. (Which is why I used the "it" rather than a gendered pronoun.)
I will give the design credit though. It's certainly creative. I've never seen a man ever dress like that for any reason. Closest I can come up with is Borat at the beach.
Can we stop pretending like only Japan is guilty of this? It's completely preposterous. All one needs to do is open Steam and check out almost anything with the word "RPG" in it to find examples of these shitty armours. And Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are among the rare games that don't do this (Dark Souls II does have some skimpier outfits, but at least they're unisex and usually actual clothing and not metal) and they're Japanese games. The whole trend started with western fantasy artists such as Vallejo and Frazetta anyway.This argument (And the one from that cat girl Tekken character) serves to demonstrate one more reason why Japanese games don't hold the acclaim they once did. Even if you disagree and find it fine/appealing, clearly a lot do not and it just reinforces stereotypes.
Just ignore the designs in Vagrant Story and Final Fantasy 9 when Square was at the top of the game and the genre stronger than ever.This argument (And the one from that cat girl Tekken character) serves to demonstrate one more reason why Japanese games don't hold the acclaim they once did. Even if you disagree and find it fine/appealing, clearly a lot do not and it just reinforces stereotypes.
But why sexualized armour? Having sexy witches or whatnot, ok, whatever.
There are worse things shown at real fashion shows. Just admit you are uncomfortable.Video games have tons of strange tropes that people take for granted, and one fairly large one is a complete lack of a sense of propriety. Go into people's homes and rummage through all their things! Wear a mankini to battle and grapple with other beefy men with children watching! Destroy all barrels! After a while you get used to that stuff.
Video games only ask you to suspend your disbelief, though, not completely annihilate it as a concept permanently from your psyche. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's my problem with that armor. You could imagine someone realistically stealing things, because that's a thing that happens, and you could imagine someone wearing a mankini because you can see stuff like that at the beach, and you can see the appeal of unrealistic exploding barrels because it's cathartic, and highly volatile explosives do exist. That armor, though, is where I draw the line. It's not that I can't imagine a person wearing it to battle, it's that I can't imagine a person wearing it anywhere. Even if I pictured someone wearing that in the bedroom with their lover, I can only picture it as some kind of humiliating punishment.
Impractical designs work within a certain context. Tarsem's movies never try to portray realism, they're always surreal.
The problem is when you have a world that tries to present itself as fantastical, but still grounded, and then the characters wear outfits that don't fit into the universe. This happens in games all the time.
The thing is, were waaaaay past the badly designed sexy female armor quota, so theres lots of badly designed sexy male armor quota to meet. And until balance of the two is restored, I dont really think anyone is in the position to request male sexyness to be up to some arbitrary design quality standard.
theres lots of badly designed sexy male armor quota to meet. And until balance of the two is restored
arbitrary
Am I really the last person on earth who thinks of this when people talk about witches?
Cause that quote really weirded me out way more than it should have.
Impractical designs work within a certain context. Tarsem's movies never try to portray realism, they're always surreal.
The problem is when you have a world that tries to present itself as fantastical, but still grounded, and then the characters wear outfits that don't fit into the universe. This happens in games all the time.