Andronicus
Banned
salt posts in the AM, regardless the IQ of this game is Incredible
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A New Graphical Benchmark - The Order 1886
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
- Start date
Given that Unity still runs like shit on consoles, that's a big nope. Opinions or not, visually and performance-wise, Unity doesn't hold a candle to The Order on consoles. Great lighting, but that's about it.
*sigh* I can understand the disagreement here but 'totally disingenuous'? C'mon man, the argument that 1:1 pixel mapping makes it native is not some totally far out weird thing to say and technically speaking, I can completely get with it. You could say "well it's sort of a cheat" or whatever but stop responding to it as if it's a disingenuous thing to say. It's not. 1080p output that includes black bars IS a different beast from something that involves upscaling. If you care about native resolution being respected in terms of image quality, then black bars do not make it 'not native'. Just as we don't complain about movies that have such aspect ratios as being 'not native'. Does it help the devs with the game's performance? Sure. Was that part of the reason why they did it? Quite possibly. But saying it's disingenuous and that all Xbox games could just as well do it too (srsly now, it is an artistic decision that does not fit all games) really misses the point imo or at least disrespects the argument that you could say 'native' could refer to 1:1 pixel mapping and avoiding any type of upscaling, it's not that bad of an argument and it's certainly not 'disingenuous'. It's as if you've got some sort of extreme emotional attachment to the word 'native' and absolutely can't stand that The Order might in some regard actually be native.
With this black bar speak. I don't really care about it too much but just so we are clear. It is now called a native 1080p outpuT.? I really like that term of phrasE. Very clever. So last gen games like battlefield would still be classed as native 720p because they shaved pixels off. I'd still call it 702 over 720. Just how the order is actually 1920 x 800. They don't call a 2:35:1 film 16 x 9 native output.
The order is a 1920 x 800 native image. If a monitor or tv existed with that resolution it would fill the screen perfectly
The order is a 1920 x 800 native image. If a monitor or tv existed with that resolution it would fill the screen perfectly
f@luS
More than a member.
Doesn't matter. It looks perfect on screen with no upscalling. It would be a fighting game with black car it would sux. But these bars fit the order perfectly so who care. The IQ is native that's all matters.
And people downplaying it ... Oh my. It's by far the best looking game. Unity ? Is this serious ? The order look ace on screen but playing it on a 65" (which make these small black bar irrelevant ) is something to behold. It just looks like CG like no other game. Ryse or whatever included. Perfect iq , lightening , details and physics ....
It's the first time ever I forget that what im seeing is made of polygons and textures. It just looks too good
And people downplaying it ... Oh my. It's by far the best looking game. Unity ? Is this serious ? The order look ace on screen but playing it on a 65" (which make these small black bar irrelevant ) is something to behold. It just looks like CG like no other game. Ryse or whatever included. Perfect iq , lightening , details and physics ....
It's the first time ever I forget that what im seeing is made of polygons and textures. It just looks too good
Thought of what?
If they up'ed it to 1080p and removed the blackbars they would not have to scale (which is the point DPoole is trying to make). You would see as much in the width and more in height.
Buy your logic a 640x320 game on a 1080p display is 1080p, as long it has black bars around it. Native pixel representation does not equal the game being the display's native resolution.
But I am out, this is between you and DPool
Are you sure FOV would be the same?
EDIT : beaten by Lord Error.
bigboss370
Member
Agreed. Best looking game anywhere to date.
You're comparing aspect ratios there. Not resolution. They don't call a 2:35:1 film 16:9, sure, but they don't call those sub-HD either. Those are considered full HD. Those are considered native resolution.
Even the wiki on 'native resolution' gives that argument at least some level of validity:
In this definition, a lot more emphasis is put on how native resolution is about optimal display quality, not about 'all pixels being filled and not having black bars'.
I think this is clearly a tiny bit of a gray area where things lean a bit in favor of 'native' being an appropriate term for The Order's output. Even a game that upscales in-engine and then outputs a native 1080p image is in some ways technically 'native' but it would of course be silly to actually call that native, just because your tv is not doing the upscaling. In The Order's case however, it's not so silly to call it native. Because the image quality and pixel mapping fully fit the definition.
I'll admit it *is* a bit of a gray area... But seriously now, seeing people get this wound up about the term is pretty funny.
Marvel
could never
I didn't find it so, no. Also the camera is far easier to deal with than TEW with the bars.
kojirosasaki
Banned
I agree. This game is amazing. We will have to wait for next Uncharted.
As long as we don't call its resolution 1080p that's fine. You are right tho. It is funny. It's output is 1080p but so is the xbox ones.
http://www.deadendthrills.com/forum/discussion/138/aspect-ratios-and-their-resolutions
Those are the actual resolutions of film ratios
Why are there people in this thread claiming that the 2.35:1 aspect ratio employed by this game (as has been employed in cinema for decades) is a technical and not an artistic choice?
Please research framing and field of view.
I'm glad RAD did something different with The Order. The cinemascope aspect ratio benefited the storytelling AND the gameplay. The 4xMSAA and 1:1 pixel mapping benefitted the visuals.
Oh and for the Aussies who watch Good Game.. shame on you Bajo.. trying to zoom in on the game with your TV remote? WTF is wrong with you.
Please research framing and field of view.
I'm glad RAD did something different with The Order. The cinemascope aspect ratio benefited the storytelling AND the gameplay. The 4xMSAA and 1:1 pixel mapping benefitted the visuals.
Oh and for the Aussies who watch Good Game.. shame on you Bajo.. trying to zoom in on the game with your TV remote? WTF is wrong with you.
Are you implying that the technical aspect of how they benefited greatly performance-wise from this was no factor in their decision process? It's just likely that it was. Even if it is indeed very much an artistic choice (which, I agree, it is, it only works if it fits the game's style).
They themselves said that one of the reasons they went with the current ratio is that it allowed them implement 4xMSAA.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
They also said rendering it without the bars would have given them about the same performance and IQ just with different methods.
Wickerbasket
Member
Didn't the say that they knew they were going to use that aspect ratio before they knew anything about the technical stuff? It just so happens that one of the advantages of using that resolution was having 4xMSAA.
I'm sure I read that in an interview with one of the developers.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Of course they do. The devs would be silly to make an artistic choice and then not take advantage of any technical benifits it provided.
Wow, The Order looks significantly better now. For some reason, I remembered the earlier demos looking better than they really were. Not the most flattering GIF of Uncharted 4 but I think it looks amazing overall. Hopefully, Uncharted 4 will improve significantly as well at release date.1886 Gameplay Reveal 1 year before release
U4 Gameplay Reveal (possibly) 1 year before release
I barely noticed them. Then again, in the Evil Within theres alot more stealth gameplay where the black bars are annoying.
Dictator93
Member
Well, without MSAA.
thewhitehawk
Member
I don't the environments immensely more impressive than Assassin's Creed. And to me, a game like AC is a lot more impressive when you consider the fact that you can interact with most of the environment whereas in the Order its just a pretty wallpaper luring you down a very linear path.
I don't dislike the Order and actually find its story concept very cool and also enjoy the setting, but the Order is a symbol of the very things that nearly brought down our industry during the PS3 era in which publishers and developers pursued better graphics at the expense of everything else and defined almost everything that wasn't a third/first-person AAA corridor shooter unviable for the market.
Yes, the Order has impressive graphics but it seems that they were achieved at the expense of almost everything else.
The AI, longevity, replay value and gameplay are aspects in which the game is sorely lacking.
I don't dislike the Order and actually find its story concept very cool and also enjoy the setting, but the Order is a symbol of the very things that nearly brought down our industry during the PS3 era in which publishers and developers pursued better graphics at the expense of everything else and defined almost everything that wasn't a third/first-person AAA corridor shooter unviable for the market.
Yes, the Order has impressive graphics but it seems that they were achieved at the expense of almost everything else.
The AI, longevity, replay value and gameplay are aspects in which the game is sorely lacking.
Not many games are being made like this. It's not going to bring down the industry and it's not going to change the goals of other studios. Even if you don't like it, which is easily understandable, the posts acting like this game is so much more important to the direction of the industry than it ever could be are crazy.
Dictator93
Member
If anything, the reaction against it will make the genre-path it took be one not oft followed.
Yup. I also doubt if we get another one it'll have the same design philosophy as this one did. Even as someone who enjoyed the game, I want this series to evolve from the design in 1886.
Agreed. With this gen being the gen of open world games, I think I would prefer a few more linear cinematic games for a change. Not everything is better as open world games
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
huh?
Exactly, which is a shame, because even those interested in making a game similar to The Order, but without all the shortcomings, will try to avoid it.
Hopefully RAD gets a second chance to make a sequel, so they can work on all the stuff critics and users felt they got wrong. Providing RAD is humble enough to take every single criticism to heart, whether they agree with it or not.
Things don't have to be going from one extreme to another. Also modern open world games are extremely linear as well, in terms of progression and choice and how the missions play out. In the end at best they pretty much become what section of the map you want to scrub first. I'd prefer stuff with significantly more player agency, that's something not offered much.
The Order had Black Bars from the moment it was revealed. I think it was a artistic decision. It obviously gave them more head room, What's the problem with that?
Yeah, I think I agree with this. I'm just trying to say open world does not equal better unlike how Eurogamer seems to think
Krauser Kat
Member
Why are we even comparing UC4 to The Order. UC games haver always been graphically impressive games. They have also had wide open environments with tons of shit going on very little cutscene to gameplay ratio. All the while being 12-15 hour games.
That gif is a little disingenuous to to UC4. Since the beach scene was still in game (as we were told).
That gif is a little disingenuous to to UC4. Since the beach scene was still in game (as we were told).
Well, currently The Order does edge out visually, so I think it's a fair comparison. It will be interesting to see if Naughty Dog can match the visual fidelity of The Order
Chû Totoro
Member
I don't find it impressive. I can't explain it in details but to me it's like Resident Evil "impressive" graphics on Playstation. Beautiful textures are just textures...
Well of course I exaggerate because it's impossible to sat that The Order doesn't look really good but it's like the effort wasn't worth it for me.
I personally find graphics impressive when I can actually interact with them. That's why I'm always more impressed by physics and I can agree that simulation of cloth in The Order are damn impressive.
So maybe a benchmark for a few things but not everything that I put behind "graphics".
Well of course I exaggerate because it's impossible to sat that The Order doesn't look really good but it's like the effort wasn't worth it for me.
I personally find graphics impressive when I can actually interact with them. That's why I'm always more impressed by physics and I can agree that simulation of cloth in The Order are damn impressive.
So maybe a benchmark for a few things but not everything that I put behind "graphics".
I came here to give my opinion even if a lot of people know that I don't find The Order to be a good game I still wanted to explain why I agree that it's beautiful despite not being what I would call a reference. No derailment or else intended, but I think my post is ok even for the people who wouldn't agree with me
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
I'm with you here OP. The game has very standard gameplay (could have been so much more) but the visuals are the best I've ever seen on consoles. So many times I've been watching the cutscene only to realize I'm back in game.
I'll dispel the tension right now and say it's doubtful, because unlike The Order, Uncharted 4 will also be aiming to be a great, great game, meaning they won't be adding black borders, they won't make the cutscenes unskipabble, traversal and shooting galleries won't be limited to a corridor or staircases, it'll be a lot longer than 6-8 hours, it'll have an entire multiplayer component and it won't be prioritising graphics or story over gameplay.
And judging by past ND games, it'll probably feature a much, much better story too.
Almost every game for the next few years will probably not reach The Order's quality in graphics, and the only ones that are likely to come close are cutscene heavy, QTE fests from the likes of Quantic Dream.
Chû Totoro;155183815 said:I don't find it impressive. I can't explain it in details but to me it's like Resident Evil "impressive" graphics on Playstation. Beautiful textures are just textures...
Well of course I exaggerate because it's impossible to sat that The Order doesn't look really good but it's like the effort wasn't worth it for me.
I personally find graphics impressive when I can actually interact with them. That's why I'm always more impressed by physics and I can agree that simulation of cloth in The Order are damn impressive.
So maybe a benchmark for a few things but not everything that I put behind "graphics".
I came here to give my opinion even if a lot of people know that I don't find The Order to be a good game I still wanted to explain why I agree that it's beautiful despite not being what I would call a reference. No derailment or else intended, but I think my post is ok even for the people who wouldn't agree with me
Sure it's ok
But to be fair, it is not like the Order is not interactive at all. I get what you mean and offcourse there are way more taxing games where you can shoot everything to bits with fairly realistic graphics. But I have seen many things react to the things you do in footage (flying pans, bottle, clothes, the impact on enemies etc.). It is not to the same extent of, let's say, god of war (fixed cam, very limited interaction with environments).
This is where UC4 will totally outshine the Order though, even if the total (still) image looks a little less. The ways drakes model interacts with the environment and npc's already looked phenomenal in the footage released.
You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that RaD focused so much on visual fidelity the game suffered in gameplay and story. This is not necessarily true. The Order is RaD's first original IP, so they may still need to work on their skills to develop great games (not based on already established IP's). Still, right now, it's way too early to judge if Uncharted 4 will match The Order in visual fidelity.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Is this trolling at all?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That fricken Thermite Gun.
I'm saying go through the thread. No one is calling anyone a troll except the most outlandish obvious ones. Plenty of people have had an opposite opinion and have explained it well.
Man that looks so so good. :drools:
Dictator93
Member
Actually there is a great point in that troll: more environmental interactivity would have meant getting rid of a lot of the baked direct and indirect lighting... which would not have correctly lined up with new or absent model positions. Etc...
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Thats a good point Dictator.
I keep fantasizing about them making a Batman style game set in London. The last shot of the game just gives you the impression that is a possible though very unlikely direction but man it would be sweet.
Probably would be in development for 5 years though.
1886 Gameplay Reveal 1 year before release
U4 Gameplay Reveal (possibly) 1 year before release
U4 is a confirmed 1080p isn't it? I thought The Order used its aspect ratio to provide a wider FOV, but from what I can see from the gifs you posted Uncharted has a higher FOV.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
But would more environmental interactivity really make the game better? Or was/is it other things? Just don't see how what he said could be that "one" thing that would make the game look worse.
Not really. They could have provided the same FoV at a taller ratio, if they'd wanted to.
It's very difficult to tell at a glance.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
The game needs more open environments for sure and Dictator is the one person I have seen present a case of how the tech is holding back a better gameplay experience in that regard but the gunplay that is there is excellent there just needs to be way more of it.
Also, best horses ever. I must have looked at these guys for minutes. The way the muscles in their neck's flex and pull and the texture of their skin is bonkers.
Eh, look at how much space Drake takes up on the screen compared to Mustache McFacialhair
Edit: It's late, I am dumb. I don't have the faintest why I thouight having a camera further away = higher fov.