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[SEGAvangelist]

I don't get what you're trying to accomplish with this?

I'm only a single person, but this is how it goes in my case. I bought Forza 5 at launch with my Xbox One. There was no alternative for a similar type of game this generation and so any of its failings weren't of the same importance as they may have been if it actually had any competition. Today I've completed 99% of the game's content (got one championship left unfinished). Project Cars comes out, and I consider getting it, but decide against it because I hear that it has performance issues and image quality issues which simply don't exist in the rather similar racer I already have. This decision is made even easier by the fact that I know Forza 6 is on the way, will be shown in slightly over a week, and is almost certainly not going to have the same problems. So I don't buy Project Cars, and just wait for Forza 6. So -1 Project Cars sale, but strangely enough, not -1 Forza 6 sale.

This is the exact reasoning for why I didn't purchase Project Cars.

 

[chuckddd]

This is great news. Hope they're happy with that number.

 

[Three]

Call of Duty doesn't really look anything like Halo though, and doesn't look like it plays anything like Halo. Project Cars looks A LOT like Forza 5, and at a glance looks like it plays pretty much the same. It's not really a case of having multiple games in a genre (I doubt Forza Motorsport affects Need for Speed's sales much), but more about having a game that shares so much in common with another, that's almost due for a new entry as well. If when you played Halo, you were likely to play as the same character, shooting the same weapon on the same map as Call of Duty, then the comparison would be more valid.

I don't have Project Cars, simply because I have Forza. If Forza didn't exist, I'd have Project Cars.

I think they differ just as much. Even GT and Forza differ in gameplay, rolling starts, career types etc. Especially Project Cars, career mode and races differ enough from Forza that the comparison is apt. As a racing fan I've bought and played all three too. Forza 5 and GT6 within a space of a month. Your anecdotal evidence is just as valid as those who buy all racing sims. I've seen just as many people buy all three. When I go to those threads I see a big overlap of users from Pcars and Forza threads. Not sure why somebody who enjoys racing games would not play a new one that serves his/her interests because they have an 18 month old game in the same genre. They would be more inclined to get it. It's even a case of the newer game getting a better reception than the other. The newer game (PCars) is more critically acclaimed. I don't see a logical reason why somebody who enjoys racing games would not get the new racing game when they haven't had a game in the same genre for more than 18 months.

I believe you are missing my point. I never said Forza made the genre less popular. I simply said the genre overall isn't as popular as other genres and that it plays a role in people not seeing the need in buying multiple games that are a part of that genre.

I don't think I did. My point was if the genre is not popular then they would not own any game in that genre. Why would the popularity of the genre limit them to one game in the genre? Why would such a limit exist for this but not other genres?

Why would the popularity of a genre make them buy multiple games instead of the latter dictating the former with the same racing fans?

 

[Synth]

I think they differ just as much. Even GT and Forza differ in gameplay, rolling starts, career types etc. Especially Project Cars, career mode and races differ enough from Forza that the comparison is apt. As a racing fan I've bought and played all three too. Forza 5 and GT6 within a space of a month. Your anecdotal evidence is just as valid as those who buy all racing sims. I've seen just as many people buy all three. When I go to those threads I see a big overlap of users from Pcars and Forza threads. Not sure why somebody who enjoys racing games would not play a new one that serves his/her interests because they have an 18 month old game in the same genre. They would be more inclined to get it. It's even a case of the newer game getting a better reception than the other. The newer game (PCars) is more critically acclaimed. I don't see a logical reason why somebody who enjoys racing games would not get the new racing game when they haven't had a game in the same genre for more than 18 months.

I'm not saying that my anecdotal evidence is more valid than someone that chooses to buy both. Hell, I was looking to buy Project Cars myself before it's performance issues became known, and prior to Forza 6 being confirmed (tho tbh, we all knew that was on the way at some point soonish). I'm just stating that a sale was lost due to a competing offering on the same platform, and that it would have sold me a copy in Forza's absence,

As for Project Cars and Forza differing as much as Halo and CoD... Show me the equivalent of this video done between Halo, CoD, Titanfall, Killzone, Battlefield, whatever. I'll let you pick which two to contrast. I'll wait.

 

[Gestault]

If Japanese Xbox.com can be believed Forza 6 has weather and night racing. 24 player races, 2 player split screen, 50(?) Fps, 3D puddles lol. Lots of typos.

lol, I miss sloppy translation and typos in press releases.

1080 pixels? Man, that's like 60x18p! 50 fps is king!

 

[thelastword]

You probably should; I've heard from over 20 devs saying that the SteamSpy figures are accurate enough, and these have been games with sales ranging tens of thousands to over a million copies and with a few exceptions all have been inside the margin (and those not have been close enough), as long as you stick to games that aren't really old or had a free weekend or games that haven't been sold for many weeks. In case of pCARS I trust it to be close enough.

I can't say that I trust them now, even with your anecdotal evidence. The point is, so many factors can skew these numbers and pad them out. A developer is also likely to put his title in the best light if the question is posed, so, if the steamspy stats/figures favor his title favorably, I'm sure it's likely that he'll go with the flow. This is just how it is when the evidence presented is not concrete. You understand that I can't use your exchanges as fact....

The actual quote was "large margin", which to be honest is true if compared to retail consoles titles. PC Steam sales can bring in double the actual revenue for the developer and that is certainly not something to be downplayed even if the sales are still multitudes away from consoles. But as you said, most titles like these would not survive without consoles and for most multiplatform games they are still the largest market.

No, he said that the PC sales of 160k brought in more revenue/profit to the developer by a "huge" margin over the 500+k sales on the PS4. I'm curious to know how that happens.
Does Sony take $59 out of every Project Cars copy sold on PS4 and give $1 to SMS? On the flipside...does steam take $1.00 from every copy of project cars sold and give $59.00 to the devs....how does that work?

Also keep in mind that prices go down very quickly on PC, I'm sure many people bought Project Cars and Witcher 3 for much less than $60.00 on PC (something pc fans like to clamor about), even on pre-order or at launch, don't even talk a week or month later, so where exactly is all that revenue being generated relative to it's low sales even then (comparatively) and the devs bottomline?

Since we're on it and since you've alluded to it... how exactly are steam sales bringing all that profit to devs, what stats do you have to corroborate. Are you telling me that regular steam sales where games go for $5.00, in some cases $1.00 or even FREE is bringing all that revenue back to the devs? I bought Marlow Briggs for a couple of cents on a steam sale recently, enjoyed the title, but I'm not sure the devs are bathing in the green right now.

I guess, we must just put everything in perspective and weigh all the factors, the cheaper your game is the better it may do in a sale, but months after a game's release or even years will not bring it millions of sales or generate massive profit on account of a steam sale, that's just wishful thinking and a huge folly tbh.

2) Kunos(AC devs) had been working on console support for a while now. They did not just announce this on an impulse after seeing Project Cars sales.

So of course again, you're really saying nothing. They just announced their title, I'm no rat in their ceiling, I'm not sure you are either (but you may want to confirm)....they've been working on console support for a while now, yet they've never released a product on consoles and they only just released their title late last year on PC. Why wasn't the console versions ready then? or/are being released in 2015 for that matter?

All I said is that they just announced their title, quite conveniently, soon after the Project Cars devs announced their success on the console platform. They plan on releasing it in 2016, it may very well be late 2016 or miss it entirely, we don't know. I am certainly not confident that they have been working on console for a while now as you said and neither am I confident that they have a build ready to show atm, nothing points to that. What I do know, is that they have some extra content which they've been working on for PC, which they will show at E3. Everything points to deep involvement in PC so far and these Italian guys are not a huge dev house at all. "Just saying"

 

[Three]

I'm not saying that my anecdotal evidence is more valid than someone that chooses to buy both. Hell, I was looking to buy Project Cars myself before it's performance issues became known, and prior to Forza 6 being confirmed (tho tbh, we all knew that was on the way at some point soonish). I'm just stating that a sale was lost due to a competing offering on the same platform, and that it would have sold me a copy in Forza's absence,

As for Project Cars and Forza differing as much as Halo and CoD... Show me the equivalent of this video done between Halo, CoD, Titanfall, Killzone, Battlefield, whatever. I'll let you pick to two to contrast. I'll wait.

To me that sounds more like you didn't like the XB1 performance of the game rather than not showing an interest in the game because it's the same genre. You say you wanted to buy it. You are not somebody who limits themselves to one game in the genre as was being suggested.

Sure, I can't show you like for like videos outside of say old COD vs new COD with old maps but then again it's not about finding like for like maps is it. Why would you buy Forza 6 if you have Forza 5 for example? Surely it's because it offers more features. Like, say, weather, new tracks, other cars, better graphics, more cars on track, day/night? By that bizarre logic there would be no reason for a Forza 5 owner to get 6 either because they are similar and you can do a side by side comparison of Forza 5 vs Forza 6 on the same track with the same car. The gameplay would differ even less too.

 

[Synth]

To me that sounds more like you didn't like the XB1 performance of the game rather than not showing an interest in the game because it's the same genre. You say you wanted to buy it. You are not somebody who limits themselves to one game in the genre as was being suggested.

Sure, I can't show you like for like videos outside of say old COD vs new COD with old maps but then again it's not about finding like for like maps is it. Why would you buy Forza 6 if you have Forza 5 for example? Surely it's because it offers new things. Like, say, weather, new tracks, other cars, better graphics, more features like more cars on track, day/night? By that bizarre logic there would be no reason for a Forza 5 owner to get 6 either because they are similar and you can do a side by side comparison of Forza 5 vs Forza 6 on the same track with the same car.

Well, I'm not buying it for PS4 either. So...

The important part of what I'm saying is if I only had a PS4, or for some reason Forza Motorspot didn't exist, then I would have bought Project Cars, because I wouldn't have had what is in my mind a better (or any) alternative.

I'm not saying that Forza 5 and Project Cars have no reason to both exist. They do have their differences, which is why I was considering it in the first place. However they have far more overlap than something like Halo and CoD do. Whilst I look forwward to the new things in Forza 6, I still know damn well I'm going to be doing hundreds of laps around cicuits that are in Forza 5, in cars that are in Forza 5, and so unlike Halo, CoD, Titanfall, Killzone, Battlefield etc, I'm not as receptive to the idea of buying multiple such games in a short time span. Driveclub? Sure.. bought that. Horizon 2? Sure... bought that? Rvials? Sure... got that. The Crew? Nah, lol (but if I'd liked it sure). Project Cars though? That's different and offers far too similar an experience to what Forza 6 will offer for me to bother with, seeing as it's likely to not be as good an experience. One a year (hell one every two years, based on how long it's taken me to complete Forza 5) is good enough.

Forza vs Project Cars is less Halo vs CoD, and more NBA 2K vs NBA Live, or Pro Evo vs FIFA imo.

 

[Three]

That's different and offers far too similar an experience to what Forza 6 will offer for me to bother with, seeing as it's likely to not be as good an experience. One a year (hell one every two years, based on how long it's taken me to complete Forza 5) is good enough.

Forza 6 I kind of get with the news today, but people were suggesting that it was Forza 5 that affected Project Cars sales. An 18+ month old game. We only just found out that Forza 6 is similar to project cars in some ways just today, not when Project cars came out and sold less on XB1. I'm not arguing against your personal choice though, just the belief that Forza 5 made PCars sell less on XB1 because there was a game in that genre available already.

It's funny you mention those. Since the NBA and Formula 1 license was with SCE too but did not affect 2K or Codemasters sales.

 

[Synth]

Forza 6 I kind of get with the news today, but people were suggesting that it was Forza 5 that affected Project Cars sales. An 18+ month old game. We only just found out that Forza 6 is similar to project cars in some ways just today, not when Project cars came out and sold less on XB1. I'm not arguing against your personal choice though, just the belief that Forza 5 made PCars sell less on XB1 because there was a game in that genre available already.

I don't think the distinction matters much. I didn't know about the Forza 6 weather/night stuff until after my first post in this thread too. Didn't prevent me knowing about Forza 6 itself since they announced it in January (and suspecting the weather/night stuff). Plus, whilst I don't need multiple racers of this type in a short window, I do still need at least one. So if there was no Forza 5, I'd have been far more likely to purchase Project Cars as a stop gap before Forza 6. Hell, in that scenario it may have been Forza 6 that then needed to justify its purchase, rather than the other way around.

 

[gutterboy44]

The second they add G27 support to the PS4 they can add one to their sales total.

 

[cgcg]

I don't get what you're trying to accomplish with this?

I'm only a single person, but this is how it goes in my case. I bought Forza 5 at launch with my Xbox One. There was no alternative for a similar type of game this generation and so any of its failings weren't of the same importance as they may have been if it actually had any competition. Today I've completed 99% of the game's content (got one championship left unfinished). Project Cars comes out, and I consider getting it, but decide against it because I hear that it has performance issues and image quality issues which simply don't exist in the rather similar racer I already have. This decision is made even easier by the fact that I know Forza 6 is on the way, will be shown in slightly over a week, and is almost certainly not going to have the same problems. So I don't buy Project Cars, and just wait for Forza 6. So -1 Project Cars sale, but strangely enough, not -1 Forza 6 sale.

EDIT:



Then again...

You are trying to extrapolate your personal experience to the entire world. The reason it sold much more simply because the PS4 userbase dwarves the xbone one worldwide simple as that. We've seen similar split for other games before.
The sooner you people accept this the better.
I mean even dark souls 2 sold more on ps4 even it was released shortly after bloodborne. Gee I wonder why.

 

[Synth]

You are trying to extrapolate your personal experience to the entire world. The reason it sold much more simply because the PS4 userbase dwarves the xbone one worldwide simple as that. We've seen similar split for other games before.
The sooner you people accept this the better.
I mean even dark souls 2 sold more on ps4 even it was released shortly after bloodborne. Gee I wonder why.

I'm not. You're assuming that I believe it would have sold better on Xbox One otherwise, which I don't. I just feel that its a factor that further accentuates what gap there would have been.

As I've said before comparisons to games with completely different and unique content doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. The content overlap between Project Cars and Forza is much greater than between Bloodborne and Dark Souls. It's more Pro Evo to FIFA. Someone who buys FIFA14 is probably still more likely to buy FIFA15 than a Pro Evo of the same year. If one of the two disappears, the other is likely to pick up a decent number of its consumers. That's much less the case with the games you're trying to use as a comparison.

 

[Saty]

Ha ha, you're something else. As always, this data is false? do you live in some alternate reality? Nearly every other source that I can link will support the data I linked initially and are in the same ballpark. Here's another.

Others;
1.
2.
3.

So the data I posted is in line with a confirmation from Bethesda, but it's not to be trusted.... but steam stats can be trusted I'm sure. Those are from Bethesda I'm thinking. The worse thing about it, is how dramatic you are when being wrong, better take it easy man.

Are you really that dense? The made-up data is the platform split that your original link presents that you take as gospel even after being told repeatedly it's bullshit data.

Yes, Bethesta announced Skyrim selling over 20M but they never ever said anything about platform splits (99% of games never share platform splits at all). But that doesn't stop you from referencing those splits over and over. Just as bad as using Chartz.

The only split data that can be said to be reliable at all is the PC version through Steamspy. Ofc, you refuse to acknowledge it because it shows a much more positive outlook than you want to admit, hence sticking with false data even after being told it's wrong.

 

[Chobel]

I'm not. You're assuming that I believe it would have sold better on Xbox One otherwise, which I don't. I just feel that its a factor that further accentuates what gap there would have been.

As I've said before comparisons to games with completely different and unique content doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. The content overlap between Project Cars and Forza is much greater than between Bloodborne and Dark Souls. It's more Pro Evo to FIFA. Someone who buys FIFA14 is probably still more likely to buy FIFA15 than a Pro Evo of the same year. If one of the two disappears, the other is likely to pick up a decent number of its consumers. That's much less the case with the games you're trying to use as a comparison.

Fifa and PES release very close to each other, not a good comparison.

 

[DirgeExtinction]

For some reason, 1M doesn't seem like a lot when it's on three platforms.

Either way, good job SMS.

 

[Synth]

Fifa and PES release very close to each other, not a good comparison.

I know they do. That was the point of the comparison. People will often choose one over the other, rather than buy both, because they essentially serve the same purpose. I saw people move en masse to Pro Evo back in the PS2 days due to it being considered superior to FIFA, and then those same people move back to FIFA last gen. At no point did I usually see people purchasing both games each year. If one wasn't an option tho..

 

[thelastword]

For some reason, 1M doesn't seem like a lot when it's on three platforms.

Either way, good job SMS.

I think for such a game it's pretty good, Project Car's was never going to do GT's numbers but nobody expected that it would do so well either. They've already made some profit and it's no doubt they're pretty happy about it. I think they were also surprised that the game was so well received by the media as well.

 

[_machine]

I can't say that I trust them now, even with your anecdotal evidence. The point is, so many factors can skew these numbers and pad them out. A developer is also likely to put his title in the best light if the question is posed, so, if the steamspy stats/figures favor his title favorably, I'm sure it's likely that he'll go with the flow. This is just how it is when the evidence presented is not concrete. You understand that I can't use your exchanges as fact....

I understand, though I'll have to say that I have zero reason to doubt any of the people, some had press releases about the sales matching the data (and some had done under expectations and were still honest about the sales to me) and 2 I worked for and saw the actual sales data. That said, I recommend doing some due diligence and asking developers if they have anything to comment on and I doubt that you are going to see many answer that they have reason to distrust the platform as a whole.

No, he said that the PC sales of 160k brought in more revenue/profit to the developer by a "huge" margin over the 500+k sales on the PS4. I'm curious to know how that happens.
Does Sony take $59 out of every Project Cars copy sold on PS4 and give $1 to SMS? On the flipside...does steam take $1.00 from every copy of project cars sold and give $59.00 to the devs....how does that work?

I think you misunderstood the original quote if it was this:

made more money per unit sold that on PS4 per unit sold, by a large margin.

It's per unit and double the revenue per unit on Steam vs. Retail Console is definitely in the ballpark in my experience and they (SMS) did divulge a bit on the matter on the WMD forum. Generating much more revenue with 1/3 of the copies would ludicrous though, agreed.

So of course again, you're really saying nothing. They just announced their title, I'm no rat in their ceiling, I'm not sure you are either (but you may want to confirm)....they've been working on console support for a while now, yet they've never released a product on consoles and they only just released their title late last year on PC. Why wasn't the console versions ready then? or/are being released in 2015 for that matter?

All I said is that they just announced their title, quite conveniently, soon after the Project Cars devs announced their success on the console platform. They plan on releasing it in 2016, it may very well be late 2016 or miss it entirely, we don't know. I am certainly not confident that they have been working on console for a while now as you said and neither am I confident that they have a build ready to show atm, nothing points to that. What I do know, is that they have some extra content which they've been working on for PC, which they will show at E3. Everything points to deep involvement in PC so far and these Italian guys are not a huge dev house at all. "Just saying"

It's not just him saying though:

The first tests, carried out as a pure technical evaluation, we had them executed in late 2013 when Sony, after seeing Assetto Corsa, sent us a devkit proposing to “play” a little ‘. And we have done, checking if a porting was technically feasible but leaving it in the field of hypotheses.

We also saw pictures of the devkits at their office I think even before the release of pCARS so the console version decision would not have been with the success of pCARS, but the announcement surely could have tried ride on the same wave. Kunos might have been just fine with the PC sales of AC in terms of running a studio; they are a tiny studio and as per the quote above AC started as a PC only title and "has been more than successful". Still, I'm not trying to downplay the market share of the consoles in any way; I know the reality is that consoles are and will be generally the larger part of the market, but PC especially lately has become a strong platform that does reward investing into it.

 

[Sijil]

Do you believe Skyrim sold even more than that...?. TBH, I don't trust steam spy at all. I have never seen such a huge disparity between people owning a game and people actually playing them. Ask yourself some questions here, even online only games show a huge divide. Do people just buy games not to play them?

Regardless, I don't even have a problem with allowing these figures to slide, consoles still sold more than PC even then. Despite all type of stats like 300 million steam accounts or the massive pc installbase and the like.

Yeah of course you wouldn't trust those numbers because it suits your agenda not to. Unless you have numbers of your own to counter SteamSpy which is extremely accurate according to developers on this very website then I'm afraid we're going to have to go with the numbers given by SteamSpy.

Also Steam has 120 million userbase not 300 million. Last time I checked Playstation 3 sold over 80 million units and 360 83 million, why didn't Skyrim on 360/PS3 sell more than 12 million surely that number is too low given the large install base.

Yes, business is business and It doesn't always work out like how you've described, that's why you have so many PC devs salivating at what the consoles are returning them and are making public statements about it. They've noticed how their sales and profits have been boosted 3-5x times and they're overjoyed, they've never been that succesful.

Just reference a recent release in Witcher 3 and notice the statements they made relative to consoles, Witcher 3 would not have been possible without consoles. Think about that for a minute and try to understand why they would make such a statement. It's because it's not all candy on PC, especially as some try to pass it as being.

So many? Aside from CDPR could you list me all those PC exclusive devs that are salivating at consoles? Also CDPR said that the Witcher 3 could've been done on PC just smaller scale, second Witcher 3 would not have been possible without the tons of PC support since they founded the company.

I mean correct me but didn't Xcom 2 just skip consoles? Go figure...

You might list Larian and InXile, before you do, both Wasteland 2 and Divinity were alluded for a console release before their PC release and are already stellar PC success.

Now, this one placed me off guard, never saw that one coming.....Sooo.... uhhh!....160k @ 60.00 makes more money for Beth than 500k+ at $60.00. Is that money you use on PC special, are they diamonds per chance? (60 diamonds per copy). Funny, that you even qualify it by saying, it does so by a "HUGE MARGIN"....so it's a forgone conclusion then. I'd love to hear you make that argument though, so by all means, humor me.

Talking about disingenuous, funny that some of the PC fans won't even correct you about it, but it's par for the course really.

You have serious reading comprehensions my friend or you are being deliberately obtuse and putting words in my mouth, PC sales have higher profit margin meaning they make more money on the sale of a single on PC then they do on consoles.

On PC all they to do is pay Valve's regular 30% cut, that's 70% percent of the profit, on the other hand the margin is far lower on consoles when you take away platform holder royalties, retailers cut, retailer logistics etc...etc... Not that hard.

And before you say that most PC gamers will buy games for 75% less:

https://twitter.com/Steam_Spy/status/606764052220657664/photo/1

When CDPR said consoles made it possible for them for W3. I don't think the XB1 was excluded. When persons say PC sold 8 million copies of Skyrim, (not official btw), there's no concern whether the owner of that PC can even run the game, but I digress. In any case, I don't see a 750ti and a 970 or 980 as a different platform, do you? The closed boxes are all a unique platform (consoles), just as all those pc's are all, well (PC). I'll also let you know that there are millions of them out there too, much more than these two current consoles put together or even the consoles from last gen.

It doesn't matter to me how you view it, they are separate SKU's, separate platforms, you're stacking all of these against one, which is unfair, regardless of that fact PC alone sold a third of Skyrim's global sales a fact you can't deny.

Apparently so, because the steam stats show a huge disparity in game owners relative to those who actually play these games on PC.

It's convenient how you want to skew the stats to suit you. I've heard many arguments of all those steam accounts that exist and all those people who have mid-high end cards when it's a convenient argument, but now it's pleasing that you remove the PS4 from the equation and only concentrate on the XB1. If you wanted to be fair, you would include both the PS4 and XB1 version combined against PC (because PC has even more variations and a more massive installbase over these consoles many times over).

Even in the stats you posted, do you realize that the PS3 version, a last gen console beats PC too (individually). Now I won't even include the 360+PS3 against PC since these versions are slighty different (player count, graphics), but it would not be unfair because they too are consoles and that would only make 4 variations of consoles against how many different configs and PC's that exist. Even then, I won't, I'll only compare the versions which are generally similar to the PC in terms of graphical quality and player count. The PS4+XB1. It is what it is man, no need to oppose facts and be in denial.

I didn't remove PS4 from the equation, I specifically said PC came in second in the BF4 stats, first position is PS4.

Saying that the different PC configs is the same thing as different consoles is extremely flawed, the user base on all of those different PC's are the same, on the same platform which is Steam/Origin/Uplay, they can play online together, interact together etc...etc... regardless of GPU/CPU variations.

X1/PS4/360/PS3 are different systems all together with their different support network, user and player base, only able to play cross platform at the mercy of the platform holder etc... So no I cannot lump all those consoles together as one single entity against PC. You are the one in denial. Hell even SMS is dividing the sales per console SKU, every company divides their sales between X1/PS4 they don't lump them together.

I'm not calling PC gamers to abandon their preferred platform and go console or anything like that, but some of the arrogance and mis-representation of the platform is a bit much. Facts don't lie and persons who try to be disingenuous about it are doing PC gaming no favors. Just look at how quickly those Arsetto Corsa devs jumped on the opportunity to release their game on console, when the project cars guys made their announcement of success. You think those SMS guys would be as enthused if all they got was the 160k sales on PC?

I would love to see a statement from Kunos Simulazioni saying how the success of SMS made them jump to consoles, were you by any chance with them in the conference room? Funny that's the conclusion you reached instead of say it was always planned to go multiplat like the grand total of all games these days. Also Assetto Corsa sold 250K on Steam.

 

[MrCunningham]

Ask yourself some questions here, even online only games show a huge divide. Do people just buy games not to play them?

Yes, because it's Steam.

Massive back catalogues of unplayed games are a really common thing thanks to impulse purchases from Steam sales, sales from external websites that sell Steam keys (GMG, Amazon) and Humble Bundle. I have about 300 games in my library and have only touched about 1/4th of them. I'm sure I am not the only one here who can relate to this.

The ownership to played ratio seems about right to me in most cases.

 

[Pranay]

Dota 2 and other f2p games play a huge huge role in steam active users.

 

[Three]

I know they do. That was the point of the comparison. People will often choose one over the other, rather than buy both, because they essentially serve the same purpose.

This simply isn't true at all, definitely not for Pcars. you can easily check the type of people who buy PCars are Forza players.

Here:

http://www.trueachievements.com/achievementgamer.aspx?achievementid=200191

now find anyone in that list who is not a Forza player too. you would be hard pressed to find even one.

 

[Synth]

This simply isn't true at all, definitely not for Pcars. you can easily check the type of people who buy PCars are Forza players.

Here:

http://www.trueachievements.com/achievementgamer.aspx?achievementid=200191

now find anyone in that list who is not a Forza player too. you would be hard pressed to find even one.

Sure that's one way to look at it. A bit like if Pro Evo just got released for the first time ever, and you were now checking to see who played FIFA the year before. It's not like they could have bought Project Cars with their launch Xbox One. Do this search the other way around and there 82,000 out of 87,000 Forza players unaccounted for.

 

[Three]

Sure that's one way to look at it. A bit like if Pro Evo just got released for the first time ever, and you were now checking to see who played FIFA the year before. It's not like they could have bought Project Cars with their launch Xbox One. Do this search the other way around and there 82,000 out of 87,000 Forza players unaccounted for.

How does that make any sense? Who said anything about buying it with a launch console? Your hypothesis is that those who bought Forza 5 would not buy Project cars because it's so similar. That people will choose one or the other. The evidence does not support that theory at all. Most Project cars players on XB1 are in fact Forza 5 players.

 

[Synth]

How does that make any sense? Who said anything about buying it with a launch console? Your hypothesis is that those who bought Forza 5 would not buy Project cars because it's so similar. That people will choose one or the other. The evidence does not support that theory at all. Most Project cars players on XB1 are in fact Forza 5 players.

The point is that you couldn't have been a Project Cars player on Xbox One prior to May of this year. So what would you likely be in the absence of Project Cars? Probably a Forza Motorsport player.

Your example showing negative results would require that people have an Xbox One, want a game like Forza Motorsport or Project Cars, but then choose to not purchase one until May 2015. Sounds pretty unlikely right? On the other hand, this fails to show how many Forza players choose not to buy Project Cars, because they have Forza already. I am in that group. Along with this guy:

This is the exact reasoning for why I didn't purchase Project Cars.

..and from the current Forza 6 thread...

I skipped project cars for this, sounding good so far

Yeah, same. I wanted to get it, but at this point, dunno when I'll ever play it.

On trueachievements we'd all show up as part of Forza 5's 87,000 and not Project Cars' 5,000. And in all likelihood, had there been no Forza, we'd be part of Project Cars' 5,000 (which would probably be a larger number as a result).

 

[Three]

The point is that you couldn't have been a Project Cars player on Xbox One prior to May of this year. So what would you likely be in the absence of Project Cars? Probably a Forza Motorsport player.

Your example showing negative results would require that people have an Xbox One, want a game like Forza Motorsport or Project Cars, but then choose to not purchase one until May 2015. Sounds pretty unlikely right? On the other hand, this fails to show how many Forza players choose not to buy Project Cars, because they have Forza already.

I didn't ask for more anecdotal evidence. I think we established that already. There are several problems with your new theory though.
Why would a supposed 18 month wait without a game in the genre be unthinkable but a 2 year wait understandable? Why do you think they would be launch owners only, that the wait is from launch until May 2015?

I spent the last few pages trying to argue the fact that a racing sim fan buys more than one game in the genre. That an established game within the genre on the platform helps that genre rather than hurts it.
The argument seemed to be that people would not buy Project cars because they have Forza 5 already. The idea being that people don't buy more than one game in the genre. The evidence does not support that. Your argument was that they would choose one over the other, either Forza or project cars, because the games serve the same purpose. Again, the evidence does not support that. Project cars owners are in fact almost all Forza 5 owners. Why did those people buy PCars at all?

Your argument now seems to be that they would have bought Forza 5 because they couldn't wait being a fan of the genre but that they did buy Project cars too, however a bunch didn't because they could wait even more.

What happened to the argument that those who own Forza 5 would not buy Project cars when they are in fact the people who did? What happened to the people who bought Pcars over Forza? Was that not the idea of the "buy only one game in the genre" narrative? Considering that the vast majority of Pcars owners on XB1 are Forza 5 owners would it not stand to reason that racing sim fans buy more than one game in the genre? Would it not suggest that having a game on the system in the same genre helps sales because the genre has an established base on the system if PCar owners are almost exclusively Forza 5 owners too?

 

[GoldenCrow]

I didn't ask for more anecdotal evidence. I think we established that already. There are several problems with your new theory though.

Why you saying it is a theory? You need evidence for it to be a theory other wise it is a hypothesis thus contradicting yourself. Carry on.

 

[Synth]

I didn't ask for more anecdotal evidence. I think we established that already. There are several problems with your new theory though.
Why would a supposed 18 month wait without a game in the genre be unthinkable but a 2 year wait understandable? Why do you think they would be launch owners only, that the wait is from launch until May 2015?

I don't get what you mean by this. What is the 2 year wait? Forza 5 to Forza 6? If so, the answer is pretty simple really. During that 2 years they'd be playing Forza 5, as opposed to 18 months of nothing to get from launch without Forza 5, to Project Cars. It won't be 18 months in all cases, but regardless it wasn't a Project Cars vs Forza question until very recently. It was Forza 5 or nothing. So pretty much everybody with even a passing interest in that type of racer would have Forza 5 beforehand.

I spent the last few pages trying to argue the fact that a racing sim fan buys more than one game in the genre. That an established game within the genre on the platform helps that genre rather than hurts it.
The argument seemed to be that people would not buy Project cars because they have Forza 5 already. The idea being that people don't buy more than one game in the genre. The evidence does not support that. Your argument was that they would choose one over the other, either Forza or project cars, because the games serve the same purpose. Again, the evidence does not support that. Project cars owners are in fact almost all Forza 5 owners.

Some will buy more than one in the genre, and some won't. However far more would buy the only offering in the genre, with no alternative in sight. On the Xbox One for over a year, that was Forza 5, and on the PS4 right now that's Project Cars. There are disproportionately more Forza players tracked on Trueachievements (of all places...) that didn't buy Project Cars (94% of them), but obviously that site won't tell you why they didn't buy it. The only way your can get information like that is from the individuals themselves, which you're just dismissing as "anecdotal evidence". What exactly do you want here? This is people telling you that they didn't buy Project Cars because they have Forza as an alternative. It's as objective as the discussion of "do people skip Project Cars because of Forza?" can get. Your "evidence" on the other hand is simply data without meaning.. especially as we don't know how many of these players may have selected Project Cars over Forza 6 (rather than over nothing at all).

What happened to the argument that those who own Forza 5 would not buy Project cars when they are in fact the people who did? What happened to the people who bought Pcars over Forza? Was that not the idea of the "buy only one game in the genre" narrative? Considering that the vast majority of Pcars owners on XB1 are Forza 5 owners would it not stand to reason that racing sim fans buy more than one game in the genre? Would it not suggest that having a game on the system in the same genre helps sales because the genre has an established base on the system if PCar owners are almost exclusively Forza 5 owners too?

In order (a paragraph full of questions is pretty unhelpful btw):

94% of your data source haven't bought it.
Project Cars' effect on Forza 6 is outside of your data source's scope.
Forza 5 wasn't a case of buying one over the other, because there was no "other" then.
Some will, apparently most won't.
Depends on how many of the 94% tracked as having Forza but not PCars, would have bought PCars otherwise. The best you can do is ask some people that qualify as part of that group why... and I've provided you with some of the responses.

 

[Jamesways]

*snip- lots of sentences*

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but wanted to comment on that "too similar an experience" to Fm5/6...
To me, they couldn't be more different regarding the career and focus of each game in general. I haven't even played Fm6's career (obviously), but I can certainly tell you it'll be a heck of a lot different than pCARS'.

You say there's too much overlap, I don't think so. Maybe if you only raced the same cars on sunny non-dynamic weather tracks. But it's the variability (not to mention larger track list) OF racing those tracks that makes pCARS so different. Starting a Practice session in a fog which clears then turns to rain to clear again makes for a great, memorable racing experience. And maybe that will be in Fm6, we'll see.

About the careers- I actually do enjoy the careers in Fm for the most part, it forces me to race cars I wouldn't have. But Forza lacks simulating actual Motorsports which pCARS excels in. There's really no way to do a proper SP Championship. The career in pCARS couldn't be more perfect IMO. You're a driver for a team, you have race rules, practice, qualifying sessions and multiple races on a weekend in a Championship calendar. That's it. No progress unlocking or gaining credits which is a bummer for some, but for those that wished they were a driver in real life, it's great.

The games are very different, to me at least. And I went with the ps4 to start this gen, but even if I had an Xbox One, I'd buy pCARS. And the Fm series, and AC when it hits. And any other racing sim out there. There's not that many racing games to be had yet, I love the genre. I'd never pass up a racing game because it's too similar.

Except The Crew. I sure as hell passed that up after playing the beta twice.


Anyway, props to SMS, hope they sell more. Looking forward to the DLC and pCARS 2.

 

[Three]

snip

The evidence is clear, it's just that your position has changed slightly. You said they are too similar and that people choose just one or the other. That people don't buy more than one game in the genre. They clearly do by that evidence. A one or the other scenario would mean most Project cars owners would have no other racing sim when that is actually very rare. The evidence there shows that they do buy PCars even when they have Forza 5. Now I don't know where you got 94% from but I wasn't suggesting that all Forza owners got PCars otherwise the sales on XB1 clearly wouldn't be so low. You are drawing conclusions outside the scope of the data though, not me. Just because only a fraction of Forza players bought PCars does not mean they mostly didn't because they have Forza when the large majority of PCars owners are Forza owners. You have a correlation that disproves your hypothesis let alone imply causation in the opposite direction. I called your evidence anecdotal because it is. If I were to say GTA V sold less than GTA IV on PS3/360 because next gen was coming out and point you to people who said they held out doesn't make it true. I cant point to GT5 sales then say well only a fraction are playing GT6 must mean they are not buying 6 because they own 5 already and the experience is too similar.

What we can gather from the evidence is that clearly racing sim fans buy more than one game in the genre and an 18 month old game has not prevented them from buying another one. It is not an either/or scenario as you suggested. People who played PCars on XB1 are those who played Forza 5. There is definitely not a "only one game in the genre" trend and people who bought just Pcar are very rare.

The questions you didn't answer is why hardly anybody bought just PCars if it is either/or. You said something about a wait even though they would not necessarily be launch owners. why would say the people who bought an XB1 in the Christmas period not be able to wait 6 months for PCars to come out yet wait 1 year for Forza 6? why would the 6 month period between PCars and Forza 6 be OK? Chobel said that the comparison to Fifa wasn't good due to the gap between the games release dates. You said the gap didn't matter they choose one or the other anyway (they don't as the evidence shows).

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Wait, Backers actually get a share of the profits? I thought Kickstarter is more or less a charity kind of thing (well you do get the game but spend money upfront on goodwill).

 

[Dilly]

Wait, Backers actually get a share of the profits? I thought Kickstarter is more or less a charity kind of thing (well you do get the game but spend money upfront on goodwill).

It wasn't funded with Kickstarter.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

It wasn't funded with Kickstarter.

Have to look up how this was crowdfunded then.

 

[Dilly]

Have to look up how this was crowdfunded then.

SMS set up their own funding system with WMD.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

SMS set up their own funding system with WMD.

Now if the backers actually get their share, investing in PC2 might be an option

 

[Conduit]

As I said in one of my previous post, I live in America and sim racing here isn't as popular as it used to be during the PS2 days at all.



I believe you are missing my point. I never said Forza made the genre less popular. I simply said the genre overall isn't as popular as other genres and that it plays a role in people not seeing the need in buying multiple games that are a part of that genre.



I'm really not sure why some of you guys keep on making this argument as if I never agreed that the PS4's larger userbase is playing a role. I agreed to that fact in my very first post here.

In terms of Mortal Kombat, I'm sure that the sales of the game on the PS4 would have been even higher if the PS4 didn't already have fighting games in its library. If a genre isn't being represented on a console due to that console still being young/new then the first game for that console that's part of that genre is going to get some attention because of that fact alone; I feel that it was true in the case of Project Cars for the PS4. If you agree with this then I don't see how you could disagree with someone saying that it played a role in the split between both consoles (though not the main role, which by the way was never what I said).

I feel the split was caused by these reasons:

1. PS4 having a larger userbase (obviously).

2. PS4 doing MUCH better than XB1 in Europe; territory where sim racers are still popular.

3. PS4 not having a racing game like Project Cars in its library before the game released; thus causing PS4 gamers to give even more attention to the game (my point, though a point I never stated as being the main reason).

Give me a break, will ya. PS4 has Injustice, it has Guilty Gear. Great fighting games. Especially the later. And still MKX sold better on PS4 by a decent margin. Why PS4 owners should bother with MKX if Guilty Gear is great fighting game?

Your point under 3 is useless. WHY YOU IGNORING PC in Europe where is user base much larger then consoles, especially in Germany?? PC also doesn't have sim games ( ACorsa sales are also low on PC). But still, PCars sale on PC is low comparing to PS4.
Damn excuses.

 

[exmachina64]

This is great news. Hope they're happy with that number.

Should be enough to fund pCARS 2.

lol, I miss sloppy translation and typos in press releases.

1080 pixels? Man, that's like 60x18p! 50 fps is king!

Dream bigger, darling. At that res, we can have thousands of frames per second.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Should be enough to fund pCARS 2.

They already announced that they'll crowd fund PC2, so it does not really matter how much copies they sell. Wich is kind of strange imo.

 

[LilJoka]

They already announced that they'll crowd fund PC2, so it does not really matter how much copies they sell. Wich is kind of strange imo.

I thought they weren't going to since the last funding mechanism with shares to be paid out wasn't technically legal in the EU

 

[sankt-Antonio]

I thought they weren't going to since the last funding mechanism with shares to be paid out wasn't technically legal in the EU

Last thing i read today was that they'll just cap the tiers to 100€ and backers who want to invest more then 50K need to get in contact with SMS. Could be old news by now though.

 

[DeadManWalking]

The fuck is this bullshit?

Are you really judging an entire platform on the performance of one game?

Xcom sold way better on pc and the sequel is now a pc exclusive, guess consoles are dead.

Some people are just dumb.

Yea and why was XCOM selling better on PC.?? I dunno...

 

[exmachina64]

They already announced that they'll crowd fund PC2, so it does not really matter how much copies they sell. Wich is kind of strange imo.

Last thing i read today was that they'll just cap the tiers to 100€ and backers who want to invest more then 50K need to get in contact with SMS. Could be old news by now though.

The same U.K. laws that limited the total amount they could receive through crowdfunding won't apply?

I'm also skeptical that they'll receive enough money to completely crowdfund pCARS 2.

 

[Bgamer90]

Give me a break, will ya. PS4 has Injustice, it has Guilty Gear. Great fighting games. Especially the later. And still MKX sold better on PS4 by a decent margin. Why PS4 owners should bother with MKX if Guilty Gear is great fighting game?

Did you actually read my post? I never said the PS4 doesn't have many fighting games. I said in my post that if the PS4 didn't have any fighting games before the release of Mortal Kombat then MK more than likely would have sold even better on the system.

Your point under 3 is useless. WHY YOU IGNORING PC in Europe where is user base much larger then consoles, especially in Germany?? PC also doesn't have sim games ( ACorsa sales are also low on PC). But still, PCars sale on PC is low comparing to PS4.
Damn excuses.

???

Where did I ignore PC? PC has many sim racing games. If anything you just further backed up the point I was making.

 

[Conduit]

Did you actually read my post? I never said the PS4 doesn't have many fighting games. I said in my post that if the PS4 didn't have any fighting games before the release of Mortal Kombat then MK more than likely would have sold even better on the system.



???

Where did I ignore PC? PC has many sim racing games. If anything you just further backed up the point I was making.

So, if XBone does not have Killer Instinct, would MKX sales be better on Xbone then?
Yes, i read your previous posts. Your post refers to the PCars sales between PS4 and Xbone are just doesn't make sense to me. Lower install base and FM5 or FH2 are no reasons for lower sales on Xbone or that PS4 has better sales because 'lack of sim races'. Just NO! What's your excuses for Witcher 3 sales in UK then? Both consoles has enough RPG's, user base difference is not so big in UK.

 

[Synth]

-snip-

Sure, I'm not claiming that people such as yourself don't exist. But just as people like you exist that will buy all of the racers of this type, there are people such as myself who won't. In your case though Project Cars gets sold regardless, Forza's existence didn't make you more likely to buy Project Cars, it still sells 1 copy, along with Forza's 1 copy. In cases like mine though Forza actually does cause me not to buy Project Cars, so it sells 0 copies to me, where they would have been 1 sale otherwise.

Regardless if our reasoning for skipping Project Cars due to Forza are flawed, it still results in Project Cars not being purchased because of Forza's existence. So one case has Project Cars selling what it would have regardless, and the other has it selling less.. an overall net loss.

The evidence is clear, it's just that your position has changed slightly. You said they are too similar and that people choose just one or the other. That people don't buy more than one game in the genre. They clearly do by that evidence. A one or the other scenario would mean most Project cars owners would have no other racing sim when that is actually very rare. The evidence there shows that they do buy PCars even when they have Forza 5. Now I don't know where you got 94% from but I wasn't suggesting that all Forza owners got PCars otherwise the sales on XB1 clearly wouldn't be so low. You are drawing conclusions outside the scope of the data though, not me. Just because only a fraction of Forza players bought PCars does not mean they mostly didn't because they have Forza when the large majority of PCars owners are Forza owners. You have a correlation that disproves your hypothesis let alone imply causation in the opposite direction. I called your evidence anecdotal because it is. If I were to say GTA V sold less than GTA IV on PS3/360 because next gen was coming out and point you to people who said they held out doesn't make it true. I cant point to GT5 sales then say well only a fraction are playing GT6 must mean they are not buying 6 because they own 5 already and the experience is too similar.

What we can gather from the evidence is that clearly racing sim fans buy more than one game in the genre and an 18 month old game has not prevented them from buying another one. It is not an either/or scenario as you suggested. People who played PCars on XB1 are those who played Forza 5. There is definitely not a "only one game in the genre" trend and people who bought just Pcar are very rare.

The questions you didn't answer is why hardly anybody bought just PCars if it is either/or. You said something about a wait even though they would not necessarily be launch owners. why would say the people who bought an XB1 in the Christmas period not be able to wait 6 months for PCars to come out yet wait 1 year for Forza 6? why would the 6 month period between PCars and Forza 6 be OK? Chobel said that the comparison to Fifa wasn't good due to the gap between the games release dates. You said the gap didn't matter they choose one or the other anyway (they don't as the evidence shows).

Would you like to remind me where I said that people would only buy one game "in the genre"? I don't recall making that claim at all. I made a comparison with FIFA and Pro Evo, as opposed to your Halo vs CoD comparison, and stated that someone is more likely to purchase FIFA14 and then FIFA15, rather than FIFA15 and PES2015 (two competing entries released near each other). At no point would I have claimed that if PES2015 were the first Pro Evo game in existence, that checking the owners gaming history wouldn't make it likely that FIFA14 is also on their list. Why the hell wouldn't it be? The previous year, they couldn't have bought Pro Evo at all, there was no choice to even make then. I didn't say the close proximity of FIFA and Pro Evo didn't matter. I said it was the entire point.

You can't just "gather that clearly sim fans buy more than one game in the genre" regardless though (even though my point was never that they would only buy one, ever), as you are essentially ruling any that bought both as "sim fans" and anyone that didn't "not a sim fan". I didn't buy both, so I don't exist in your data set, so you automatically consider me "not a sim fan" by definition, regardless of how many cases like mine there may be.

Lastly, to answer the whole "buying Project Cars over Forza" question once again... I would expect that to effect Forza Motorsport 6 (in the way PES2015 would effect FIFA15, rather than FIFA14). If someone bought their Xbox at xmas and wanted a racer, I wouldn't expect them to sit it out for 6 months when FM5 can be routinely found for a tenner. If I see Project Cars tomorrow for a tenner, I'll buy it.

 

[Zemm]

thelastword,ominimo,rayge

 

[yurinka]

People want GT, not NFS.

As I remember EA mentioned that NFS sold more than 100M copies, which means it would be the biggest selling IP of the genre (I assume not counting Mario Kart for obvious reasons).

 

[Clefargle]

Bravo, glad to see it doing well. Maybe it will have a tail and also find some success on the Wii U.

 

[JaseC]

Ask yourself some questions here, even online only games show a huge divide. Do people just buy games not to play them?

Even disregarding people like myself, absolutely.