This would be the difference between Kondo's classic Mario music and the much maligned "Buh buh" music of more recent sidescrollers.
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Kimishima: Young Generation of Nintendo Developers to Lead Forefront of NX and Mobile
- Thread starter Shikamaru Ninja
- Start date
This would be the difference between Kondo's classic Mario music and the much maligned "Buh buh" music of more recent sidescrollers.
I think Splatoon proves Nintendo will be just fine.
While a bit overzealous, I think there are valid points. Miyamoto as a game director/producer and a team manager was very good. Miyamoto as the head of company software management and direction was not so good.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Miyamoto has fucked up quite a bit - if he hadn't, every Nintendo game would be critically acclaimed and every system a success.
But there's a lot of straight up fan fiction going on in here.
But there's a lot of straight up fan fiction going on in here.
Miyamoto x Tezuka OTP.
Is there a love triangle? A love square? Can't see no one wanting to get between those lovely men.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Miyamoto was notorious to make several statements against everything I said.
Graphics and hardware statement:
Shigeru Miyamoto said:
Another graphics statement:
Shigeru Miyamoto said:
Retro's complain about Miyamoto's interference:
Miyamoto rejecting DMA Design's Body Harvest:
Miyamoto's interferences with Rare:
He wanted to tone down the killing in GoldenEye 007
Rare felt Nintendo was envious of them:
Online statement:
Shigeru Miyamoto said:
Another online statement:
Shigeru Miyamoto said:
One more:
Shigeru Miyamoto said:
Design statement:
Story driven statement:
Shigeru Miyamoto said:
Violence in games statement:
Shigeru Miyamoto said:
Shortly after Brownie Brown's downgrade, Shinichi Kameoka, founder and president, left the studio. It became mostly a development partner and never made games on their own, ever since. Miyamoto was GM on all software and internal development decisions, so yes, Brownie Brown's downgrade had his consensus.
And yes, Miyamoto's management was pissing off some investors as his rating of acceptance fell in 2014.
LOL, "fan fiction". I know it's hard for some fanboys to have a critical view over the company they love and the people they idolize, but it's good to have the facts checked sometimes.
You have an interesting approach to facts. You post random quotes and rumors from a 10+ year period, you label them with your own interpretation (such as the quote "I will never make movie-like games" becomes a "Story-driven Statement"), you concludes that he "was pissing off some investors" by posting the approval rate of a single year, and failing to mention that it was back up at 92.08% in 2015?
ecosse_011172
Junior Member
Nintendo's obsession with "being different" no matter what is the most dangerous IMO, that really needs to change.
For me, that's the best thing about Nintendo. I don't want three identical consoles.
I'm pretty sure they're just a support and asset creation studio now.
So the same as Brownie Brown was?
TreasureHunterG
Banned
FF VIII, a very story driven and heavily reliant on FMVs game, was mentioned in the question made for Miyamoto. Also, he was asked if there was any plans to bring similar experience for Nintendo games. He said that statement I provided. Thus, in practice, he never actually made anything like that. I don't get what are you trying to deny here.
I'm refering to his whole tenure as GM of Nintendo and his decisions, guidelines and views. That fit the 10+ year period you're talking. It feels like you're only considering Miyamoto's recents statements and positions, when actually his tenure and, consequently, the impact and legacy of his management, are way longer than that.
Yes, I'm concluding the obvious about the investors. What makes you believe that investors lowered his rating down if they weren't unhappy with his management? It may have back up later, but at that point of time, his management decisions were in question. Especially in a time Wii U was falling apart and 3DS wasn't so hot.
I hope it's clear that I'm not questioning him as a developer or a game maker, he's beyond question on this matter, but actually his role as a general manager.
Wikipedia is giving me both HAL and Brownie Brown. Most of their works seem to be co-developed/support/asset stuff except for Magical Vacation (GBA), Magical Star Sign (DS) and A Kappa's Trail (DSiware) which show only Brown Brown developed themselves. Everything else all the way up to their restructure to 1-UP seems to be asset and support with 1st and 3rd party exclusives.
Whoops, think I had just gotten confused with Brownie Brown. Sorry about that.
No worries! Still curious about Brownies though. It's honestly the first I heard of them.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
They are former Square staff well-known for the Mana series. Shinichi Kameoka, the studio's founder, was the artist responsible for the distinctive production art and imagery in the Mana series.
Miyamoto is a genius but his development principles always consider novice players first and foremost, he is always thinking the same way he did in the 80s when most people had never played a video game. He comes from an industrial design background and is always thinking about the mechanics of play and whether they are accessible and novel rather than more grandiose things like the graphics/plot.
His desire to incorporate new ways of playing sometimes leads to awkwardness like with Starfox Zero but his instincts are normally right. Very few Japanese designers would have upended the tea table on Metroid Prime and turned it into a first person adventure game. Even one of his most controversial interventions, with Paper Mario Sticker Star, was a logical reaction to the excessively tedious Super Paper Mario. He went too far with watering down the script and scope but I can see what he was going for.
Really when you consider the sheer number of games he's had a hand in, his batting average is quite amazing. I think if you gave any feted game designer the level of control he had over EAD, you would get similar results in terms of their ideas running through all the games. It's definitely time to shake up the structure though, there is simply no need for Miyamoto to be involved in so many projects anymore, so established are his design principles. His direct guidance is no longer needed on every project and is beginning to stifle some series.
His desire to incorporate new ways of playing sometimes leads to awkwardness like with Starfox Zero but his instincts are normally right. Very few Japanese designers would have upended the tea table on Metroid Prime and turned it into a first person adventure game. Even one of his most controversial interventions, with Paper Mario Sticker Star, was a logical reaction to the excessively tedious Super Paper Mario. He went too far with watering down the script and scope but I can see what he was going for.
Really when you consider the sheer number of games he's had a hand in, his batting average is quite amazing. I think if you gave any feted game designer the level of control he had over EAD, you would get similar results in terms of their ideas running through all the games. It's definitely time to shake up the structure though, there is simply no need for Miyamoto to be involved in so many projects anymore, so established are his design principles. His direct guidance is no longer needed on every project and is beginning to stifle some series.
SinCityAssassin
Member
All this just makes me want to know the kind of amusement park ride's he'll design.
these are some really good finds. miyamoto's a pretty hardcore guy, and the goldeneye stuff is actually pretty funny as it's kind of super not the point about what goldeneye is (at least in its ending of all things). rare's comment of nintendo being jealous sounds like straight up fantasy land bullshit on their part. super mario 64 is one of the most influential games of all-time and banjo-kazooie is a glorified minigame compilation from the studio that brought you antz.
some of that stuff i'd say he's pretty on point with. generally he seems to be not so interested in presentation elements as much as mechanics. miyamoto seems to be more interested in concepts and ideas instead of artistic elements. however, i think he's fine with it if it reinforces said concept or idea. and the guy will go out there and market it even if it's not really his bag, like he did with the wind waker's cel-shaded look early on.
This is good. We need Nintendo to keep making Nintendo-like games across the board to compensate for the fact that nobody else is on the big budget scale.
At the end of the day it comes down to sales. There is no audience on Nintendo platforms for titles in the vein of 1080 Snowboarding or Eternal Darkness. GoldenEye always comes up as a counter example, but the thing is Nintendo couldn't follow up with that as hardware became less restrictive over time which meant software budgets skyrocketed as you could produce more and more realistic graphics.
My perception of Nintendo under Iwata is that they tried their best to be successful without abandoning their core gaming philosophy. That added criteria after the word successful is key to understanding why they don't follow business 101 logic and why Pachter is dumbfounded whenever Nintendo does something and says he can't understand some of their decisions. He was often wrong in predicting their future actions because he sees things purely from a business perspective, which is a mistake when it comes to Nintendo.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Miyamoto has great ideas, no one can dispute that, but restricting Nintendo's whole development effort strictly toward his guidelines at expense of creativity freedom and variety wasn't really a good decision. It's okay if he has his own visions, wants be different from everyone else and go after it, but not really at expense of different approaches than his.
This is my biggest complain and criticism toward him. He doesn't like story driven and violence on games? Fine, it's his opinion, but to jeopardize and restrict everyone else at Nintendo to develop such games is dumb. Nintendo as a first-party and hardware maker needs to have as many as variety it can in order to appeal to the general market. Being restricted to a few selected genres and ideas and the whole software decisions restricted to a single person isn't really a good idea, as Wii U failure proved.
That's why Eguchi, Koizumi and Takahashi promotions to general managers, in theory, can provide more freedom of creativity and different ideas than Miyamoto alone.
This is a common misconception in the minds of Nintendo fanboys and defenders of Iwata's tenure but actually isn't true.
Nintendo tried to differ themselves from the rest of the market with Wii and Wii U. It worked at short-term with Wii, but later on, from it's mid to late life, it lost it's momentum and suffered a premature death. It became a hollow wasteland in it's late years, even with the record breaking sales it got. Wii U failed badly. It's okay if Nintendo wants to bring new concepts and ideas into their hardware philosophy, but not at the expense of basic requirements for a competitive console, like standard controller and competitive hardware.
By the way, this costs excuses isn't really a issue for Nintendo. Some fanboys believe a single failure can put the whole company and danger, thus, avoiding them to afford to take risks. If that was the case, then Wii U's failure would have destroyed Nintendo already as they were in a three years in a row in the red situation. And here is, Nintendo is still steady and ready for a new hardware release. This high development costs excuse was actually valid in the PS3/360 days, where HD development was absurdly high, that's not anymore like this in the PS4/XBO days. Sony is having a profit with PS4. Nintendo can afford to make high budget titles if they want to. They aren't a small studio which a single failure can put the whole company in jeopardy as many believe.
About audience, yes there was an audience for those games, especially in the SNES and N64 era. NOA did their best to appeal to those audience and made many publishing and second-party deals to many western developers in order to appeal to this crowd. 1080º was a million seller for the N64 by that time and Silicon Knight's deal that paved the way for Eternal Darkness, was made in that time. It was Nintendo's decision to concentrated the whole decision making with in NCL and strip away NOA and NOE's autonomy, shut down of the whole western gaming development, dismiss of their western second-parties and publishing deals and burned bridges with western third-parties that made Nintendo loose steam in the region. Restoring their autonomy would be a great idea, especially because Kimishima was a former NOA president. He's probably aware of the importance of this market for Nintendo's business.
About GoldenEye. Nintendo, with the Rare sellout, lost, perhaps, their biggest prospect to the genre and Microsoft was able to grab the FPS's western N64 audience. N64 was the home for console FPS play, they managed not only to loose this FPS crowd, with is huge in the western market, but mostly of it's western audience from the N64 days.
I feel like a major problem with Nintendo's Online Philosophy is that it often feels like it's just "there" and isn't really an integral part of a game's design. With Splatoon and Mario Maker and to a good chunk, Mario Kart 8 did as well. But those aren't really the norm for them, and you feel like you're getting a second-hand experience with their online because they want you to play it locally instead.
I'd say Splatoon is the complete inverse of what I'm saying, where local MP is just kinda there and not integral to the game's design. It's there, but it doesn't feel like a part of the product that most people would even try.
I'd say Splatoon is the complete inverse of what I'm saying, where local MP is just kinda there and not integral to the game's design. It's there, but it doesn't feel like a part of the product that most people would even try.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
There's a difference between being different, and ignoring swathes of industry standard hardware and software features that are visibly crippling your standing in the home console market, as seen with Wii U.
Nintendo has all the potential to be different, while also being competent at providing actual competition and a reason for the wider market to buy their hardware, if they choose to. At the moment, it doesn't look like that's the case. Hopefully NX will change that.
A good business does no ignore trends. They adapt to them, and quickly. Which is why Windows Phone and Blackberry, for example, were left in the dust.
They CAN keep making Nintendo-like games though. What's to say we can't get a game with writing as good as The Last of Us, but gameplay design as good as Miyamoto's best. Whether the market is there for that kind of experience is another story, but it's something I'd love to see from Nintendo. Having a large focus on story doesn't mean you have to make a 'movie-like game'. It's just not that black and white.
i really don't think that the wii u's failure is something you can contribute solely to miyamoto unless you're willing to say that nintendo's greatest success came solely from him as well.
I'm wondering how is this gonna work.
It's a good thing the new president isn't involved in software planning, as well as Miyamoto.
But do we know how they will work? Who will decide what to do with the external resources (second party, third party deals, oversees studios, etc)?
I think it's weird there isn't one guy on top of those 3.
They need a global strategy, not stack up games independently.
It's a good thing the new president isn't involved in software planning, as well as Miyamoto.
But do we know how they will work? Who will decide what to do with the external resources (second party, third party deals, oversees studios, etc)?
I think it's weird there isn't one guy on top of those 3.
They need a global strategy, not stack up games independently.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Him, Iwata, Takeda, and everyone else who made the decision to make Wii U the way it was.
And yes, Wii U's library suffer severely from lack of variety. Non-existant third-party support doesn't help either.
Nintendo will never internally develop a game like that, it would be like Pixar making a Rambo movie. Hopefully what we will see is more games like Eternal Darkness and Bayonetta 2, where they work with an external studio on more adult titles.
It's one thing to want more story in games, but when you say writing as good as TLoU to me this implies a huge change in tone from Nintendo games and I find that unacceptable.
If Nintendo did cutscenes, writing and story then it looks something like Kid Icarus Uprising and The Wonderful 101, which is high quality and I'm OK with that style but it doesn't help to bring in new audiences.
In hindsight Wii U should have been a cheaper console and made with a strategy in mind that's independent of AAA multiplats, which is basically what NX sounds like. Way different from what you had in mind most likely.
The question that follows naturally is how would they fill out the release schedule then, since they can't establish a healthy platform almost entirely based on 1st party output and indie games, hence the shared library theory.
the wii u's problems stem from severe mismanagement not limited to its library. it goes back to probably 2008 when the wii u concepts were being pitched the first time, back when nintendo was making billions and not expanding the company to prepare for their first hd console and a handheld that was basically going to drag 6th gen graphics near a 20th anniversary at some point. the whole direction and concept of the wii u and 3ds were so off the mark. the machine could have been different with better planning and direction. in the end, i think the ball falls way more in takeda and iwata's court. miyamoto could have pushed for the tablet idea, and if he did, then yeah i'd say it's his fault for not justifying such an expensive move with software that actually proved the concept (splatoon and mario maker should have been the new multiplayer ip and mario games at launch instead of what we had).
Their biggest failing was thinking they could handle the jump to HD/3DS development after a decade of using souped up GBA and Gamecube technology. Their Wii U software slate was effectively pushed back 2 years as they panicked trying to rescue the 3DS and learn the rigours of HD development at the same time.
It took them until 6 months after launch just to cram some tech demos into a low-budget WarioWare game, they were completely paralysed. It shouldn't have taken 2+ years to get software that used the Gamepad properly, the whole board of directors are responsible because the company was not in a fit state to develop for modern (ish) hardware. "Software sells hardware" was Yamauchi's golden rule and they completely fucked up thinking that the novelty of 3D display and a second controller screen could sell machines on their own. They seem to have fixed those problems now, they have expanded their internal teams and also have much closer relations with outside studios.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Pixar belongs to Disney and Disney made several works with more adult themes. That didn't ruined their image at all.
Besides, Nintendo allowed to publish T and M-Rated games in the SNES and N64 era and even fostered deals to bring third-party M-Rated games exclusively for it. Nintendo went after Capcom for a deal to bring RE2 to N64. Angel Studios, a business partner at the time, was assigned for the duty. They also published games like Starcraft and Command & Conquer.
I honestly find silly everyone who believes an inhouse developed T-M Rated title would "ruin" Nintendo. Of course, this doesn't implies Nintendo should abandon what they do but doesn't mean they shouldn't try, either. It's a very conservative thought from Nintendo's fanboys.
That's the reason why they need third-party support (and more inhouse variety) and Nintendo's direction with Wii and Wii U repelled them away. If they persists with their current underpowered hardware with unique controllers direction, it'll happen again. Third-parties don't want to be forced to use unique features and gameplay against their will.
Yes, I agree.
I'm not saying Nintendo can't publish those games, they have done that with Bayonetta 2, Devil's Third, Fatal Frame etc. They just won't develop them internally. Third parties like EA and Ubisoft (in terms of AAA games) are gone for the foreseeable future, Nintendo will not cater to their needs because they can't afford to. They will focus on making hardware that is suitable for their first party titles and indie/mobile developers, with outside companies like Namco and Koei picking up some of the software slack. Once they have a successful brand again, they can try to get the AAA megapublishers back on board. Right now there is no reason for those guys to commit to Nintendo platforms. There is no audience there.
Exactly. I like the different things Nintendo does, but I see nothing in them that would be held back by is standard on other consoles.
pretty much. and in the end, it wasn't that the wii had motion controls or that the ds had two screens or a touch screen, it was that the wii had wii sports and that the ds had nintendogs. it was the right software that brought an audience to the platform. even the wii u found a legitimate system seller in japan with splatoon.
there's always this hope that nintendo's learned from their mistakes and they're going to do the right thing next time, but i see their plans and preparations for the 9th generation and i'm seeing a lot of focus and direction leading to the nx's launch, more licensed stuff, mobile games, and a new account system happening all around the same time. it's supported by a complete restructure of the company by iwata, and this seemed lacking in the relatively quiet move to wii u in 2011 and 2012.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Dude, EA and Ubisoft made high profits with Wii and their games sold considerably well on it. Ubisoft said they were using their Wii profits to fund PS3/360 development. and EA was dominating Wii's charts circa 2009. Not only them, but other big third-parties had solid performance on Wii's initial years. COD3 sold on par if not better than it's PS3 counterpart, as example, and RE4: Wii Edition sold almost the same as the PS2 version. Which was dumb for why COD4 and RE5 were ignored on it.
You're wrong. There's no audience on Wii U, but definitely there's for Nintendo. I'm basing myself with Nintendo's most successful machine ever released, and that isn't far away ago, while you probably base yourself on Wii U alone. This "no audience for third-parties on Nintendo" is a myth created and supported by detractors with inaccurate information.
Hopefully..but I just hope that last years E3 doesn't represent their way of thinking going forward..
Their new announcements of Animal Crossing Amiibo Festival, Tri-Force Heroes, Metroid Prime Federation Force and an underwhelming/rushed Starfox... didn't inspire confidence in their decision making in regards to content that would sell well to core Nintendo fans or the masses. The type of content they announce for the NX will go a long way to showing if they have truly turned a corner.
Please don't lump Tri Force Heroes into that mix, it's a high quality game in every respect in what it does (teamwork based co-op Zelda)
Last year they also had Super Mario Maker and Splatoon. Technically these were already announced prior to E3 I get that, but the games themselves show what Nintendo is capable of. E3 2015 can be interpreted as their main teams having moved on to NX development, but they had to do something for current gen cheap & quick using existing assets. So for now I haven't taken any stance regarding E3 2015, until the future verifies this theory.
ecosse_011172
Junior Member
Neither do I but I don't want them to be different just for the sake of it.
TheMoon
Member
EPD (EAD x SPD)
a blend of the two, not that hard to remember
you're confusing Brownies with 1UP Studio. 1UP-Studio is the Nintendo-owned support studio. Brownies has nothing to do with Nintendo. Both Brownies and 1UP Studio spawned from Brownie Brown's closure.
xsapeguy2014
Banned
I still think Nintendo needs to keep with their very impressive I.Ps and keep up the philosophy NINTENDO is where fun lives!