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WP: "The Internet mobs have won." Zoe Quinn drops legal fight against Eron Gjoni

Fuchsdh

Member
I'm actually not surprised law enforcement is slightly behind overall. Certain western police segments are better. I think this would have gone differently in Canada. This is fairly recent still, a 2013 phenomenon.

The thing I'm pondering lately about the whole GG situation is that at its heart, it's a problem of one against many. A faceless many. There's one target, or a handful, on one side and then a vastly multitudinous cast of super-ego-driven, supposedly wronged, masked male figures, who probably rotate in and out of throwing jabs and pulling shit like doxxing on a regular basis. It's a few people vs a digitally manifested, angry, sentiment, or set of worldview frames. You can cut off a tentacle every so often but it's essentially Cthulu; to even gaze at it for very long will undoubtably cause madness.

When all of that went down I could barely comprehend what was even happening. It's a snowball, a constellation actually, of satellite issues with "fuck women" at it's core. The way it sparked with the Quinn story was like a bunch of conditions being met at once and the beast was born.

The extra shit topping on this soufflé is that enforcement will always be behind, the new weird bad thing has to occur for us to even recognize that this new weird bad thing can even happen, to ELI5.

i apologize for leaving metaphors all over the place.

I think the clear takeway is people should stop expecting law enforcement to actually deal with this. Even if they improve in some respects, they'll never be equipped to deal with internet hate mobs, especially as a lot of it isn't strictly a criminal matter.

I'd say more pressure and time should be put at the feet of Twitter, Facebook, and the like—because without these platforms to organize and broadcast, the mob's power is effectively reduced. Twitter doesn't need to worry about the legality of threats, it's their own service and they can run it as they please, and it's far easier to ban users than it is to trace an IP address and prove a person typed what was written.
 

caleb1915

Member
I think the clear takeway is people should stop expecting law enforcement to actually deal with this. Even if they improve in some respects, they'll never be equipped to deal with internet hate mobs, especially as a lot of it isn't strictly a criminal matter.

I'd say more pressure and time should be put at the feet of Twitter, Facebook, and the like—because without these platforms to organize and broadcast, the mob's power is effectively reduced. Twitter doesn't need to worry about the legality of threats, it's their own service and they can run it as they please, and it's far easier to ban users than it is to trace an IP address and prove a person typed what was written.

Twitter just announced something similar to what you're suggesting. I think Anita Sarkeesian is involved?
 

Kaiterra

Banned
Had a little brief read of some of the article. So what kicked this all off???
Her Ex accused her of sleeping around and wrote about it and posted it on the net?
Was that true or he just made that up?
Also was she the one who got accused of sleeping with game journalist for better review of her Game???

Yes. However, the accusations were false, and he didn't just make a post, he deliberately had it linked on places at 4chan etc. that would react the way he wanted and go after her.

This article was pretty depressing.

I think the clear takeway is people should stop expecting law enforcement to actually deal with this. Even if they improve in some respects, they'll never be equipped to deal with internet hate mobs, especially as a lot of it isn't strictly a criminal matter.

I'd say more pressure and time should be put at the feet of Twitter, Facebook, and the like—because without these platforms to organize and broadcast, the mob's power is effectively reduced. Twitter doesn't need to worry about the legality of threats, it's their own service and they can run it as they please, and it's far easier to ban users than it is to trace an IP address and prove a person typed what was written.

This is a good point though.
 

dubq

Member
The difference to me will always be between someone posting threats on reddit, and someone sending them to her personally. Again, thousands would be in prison for making threats against the president if the laws you propose existed.

Stop using this as your argument. This is not even remotely the same thing.
 

Lime

Member
If anyone is interested in the topic of online terrorism/harassment and legal aspects, I highly recommend Danielle Citron and her work. It's really comprehensive and educational.

I think we can assume that links with ******** in these threads or others you'd see Breitbart links aren't from like, Dualshockers. :p

:lol true
 

PMS341

Member
Harassment sucks. Unfortunately it is fairly ingrained in the culture, though opposition clearly exists. The XBL generation is a bit coddled.
 

DirtyLarry

Member
I honestly forgot that this entire disgusting movement was basically started because some jaded little boy got his feelings hurt. What a coward.
 
That seems like a pretty large problem right there. I haven't followed GG so please don't fault me for that but people don't need to live their lives on the internet.

That's like saying someone who's shrugging off hundreds of assassination attempts annually just needs to stay indoors more, nobody has to spend their whole life living. "It's an entirely avoidable situation!"

Also, why the fuck do people even bother posting if they preface their contributions with "I haven't kept up on X" only to follow up with completely inane opinions on X? Like, seriously, it's enough of a thing at this point that a single google search will give you everything you need to know. It's not the thread's responsibility to always get posters up to speed, the whole point is that forums are, well, forums. Places for discussion.
 

Lime

Member
Harassment sucks. Unfortunately it is fairly ingrained in the culture, though opposition clearly exists. The XBL generation is a bit coddled.

This is not really exclusive to "the XBL generation". Look no further than the usual cases of the dominant privileged majority feeling they are called out for their excessive dominance and reacting with hostilities or irrational deflections. See something as recent as the reaction to Beyonce for her Superbowl performance as an example of fragile White people not being able to even handle Black self-love. These bigots are similar in the sense that they are so fragile that they can't even handle an outspoken woman in their video game space that they resort to terrorism.
 
Zoe Quinn can't give up now. We absolutely MUST support her.

Ironically I just searched for it and guess what source was the highlighted one covering it:

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/...-safety-council-featuring-feminist-frequency/

Maybe it'll lead to something good but advisory committees usually don't seem to actually impact much...

Friendly reminder that Breitbart is a Tea Party site that got involved in shutting down Acorn using slanderous tactics.

Also, this image from http://kernelmag.dailydot.com/issue-sections/headline-story/11843/angry-white-male-internet/ is fantastic.
Issue28_NerdyWhiteMansInternet_2000px.jpg

Spread it everywhere.
 

Raven117

Member
This question...the question of unregulated speech on the internet...will be one of the major issues our generation will decide.

The current policy makers and lawyers simply have little concept of communication over the internet. How damaging doxxing, threats, and internet mobs can be.

But, with that in mind, how do you effectively stop it without running into afoul of the First Amendment? Certainly, Twitter, Facebook, etc. can regulate as they see fit because this is not the government stopping free speech, it is a private enterprise. (There are some constitution issues with this as well, but too deep for a forum post).

Further, it was decided long ago that "hosting" type websites where users can post things aren't typically held liable for things that posters say. K, but does Twitter and Facebook now assume more of that responsibility now that they are in there regulating speech?

Really, the issue we are seeing now, is that content creators (and online personalities) have been exposed to 100% access from the "mob." At no point in human history has there been more access to communication. Obviously, the law is struggling to adopt old world concepts into the modern communication age.

Should we view these threats online more as acts of vandalism against an online personalities enterprise?

Should we take the view that threats on the internet are the same as threats in real life (and as such usually not criminal)?

Does the internet somehow amplify a normal threat? Does a "mob" on the internet amplify a threat?

Should we take the view of threats in that a "reasonable person would have felt threatened?" (A question of fact for a court?).

Should we limit the speech of the "mob" (assuming that threats are not criminal offenses, which they aren't by in large), for the protection of someone who voluntarily submits themselves to public scrutiny?

Sorry for the stream of consciousness post. The ideas were coming to me while I was writing. Just bear in mind as these issues come up the governing dynamics at play.

I would caution anyone who argues this one way or another in taking a black and white approach to the matter.
 
The thing I cant stand about about social media platforms is that none of them ever actually do anything about complaints.

I have quite a few times reported comments: some threatening people, some being overtly sexist or just horrible leeches, homophobic comments and NOT ONCE have any of the platforms agreed with me that the comments are a problem and just left them there. Hell, Facebook even warned me that if I abused the reporting system I could get in trouble, shows how much they care about people trying to help them out with cleaning up their platform.
 

PMS341

Member
This is not really exclusive to "the XBL generation". Look no further than the usual cases of the dominant privileged majority feeling they are called out for their excessive dominance and reacting with hostilities or irrational deflections. See something as recent as the reaction to Beyonce for her Superbowl performance as an example of fragile White people not being able to even handle Black self-love. These bigots are similar in the sense that they are so fragile that they can't even handle an outspoken woman in their video game space that they resort to terrorism.

Oh no, I know it isn't. Though the mentality of those types of players definitely exists in real life, and other places as well.

I was a Gamestop manager for nearly 8 years, and the majority of my customers just could not handle the fact that we had girls working at the store. Some were visibly angry, or demanded to speak to guys instead, etc. Others just asked the girls if they carried pepper spray.
 
All I said was that it shouldn't be punishable to make rape threats in a thread on reddit,unless maybe if you did it KNOWING the person you directed then at would at some point read it.

Gotta agree on this one since a threat isn't the same when the supposed recipient isn't notified on said threat.
 

Mael

Member
Oh no, I know it isn't. Though the mentality of those types of players definitely exists in real life, and other places as well.

I was a Gamestop manager for nearly 8 years, and the majority of my customers just could not handle the fact that we had girls working at the store. Some were visibly angry, or demanded to speak to guys instead, etc. Others just asked the girls if they carried pepper spray.

That's kind of a fitting thing to share in this thread.
Gamers as a community failed if they failed to shut the spawn of the creepy coward troupes.
that they would have so little decency to harass people based on their gender or on the flimsiest sets of inconsequential lies.
At least if mobile had taken over completely we would have been rid of this.
 

John Wick

Member
Her ex started some kind of online witch hunt and idiots for some reason turned against her and made her life hell because she wants to "destroy video games" or something. Whether the original accusations of the ex were true or not doesn't matter at all and is none of our business. The people doing the harassing are idiots and should be held accountable for their behavior.

Yeah the Internet is full of weirdos. Like all the idiots who try to bring down PSN and Live every other day. Surely it's time for lawmakers to change the law so you can't get away from this type of abuse?
 

Demoskinos

Member
I don't agree with any of the people, but I think that it's important to protect free speech and fight censorship in all forms, everywhere, all the time. Once you lose it, you never get that ground back.

Agreed there. I'm very much in the camp of I don't have to like what you say but I'll fight for your right to say it. Free speech is free speech you can't pick or choose especially when something is offensive to you. I do however think there needs to be better tools on Twitter and Facebook to deal with unwanted harassment and attention. Which, in of itself is a huge conundrum because how do you provide those tools in a way that people just don't end up abusing those tools themselves.
 
Actually, when it comes to rape apologists, it's not enough.
I think it's pretty obvious the poster was stating that those threats aren't real and thus shouldn't be prosecuted. You could've engaged his point instead of taking it personally.

Not saying it's not a stupid thing to believe online threats shouldn't be taken seriously.
 

Crosseyes

Banned
I don't agree with any of the people, but I think that it's important to protect free speech and fight censorship in all forms, everywhere, all the time. Once you lose it, you never get that ground back.
I have to disagree about erring that far on the side of free speech. There comes a point where the physical and mental harm on someone's health and life is too real to let ones free speech right continue. For something like twitter you can block someone but if that individual continues to circumvent that and direct tweets at the harassed victim or engage with others promoting it legal consequences should be enforced by the state.

Of course a big hurdle to that is the massive amount of anonymity one can have online which is a big problem I believe will have to be reigned in in the coming decades.
 

dubq

Member
I think it's pretty obvious the poster was stating that those threats aren't real and thus shouldn't be prosecuted. You could've engaged his point instead of taking it personally.

Yes, I know what he was stating and that is what I am talking about. The threats being on reddit does not make them any less "real" - this is a pathetic statement, IMO, and is exactly the reason the world is in the state it's in when it comes to piece of shit MRA's, misogynists, etc. A threat is a threat and should be treated as such. There is no wiggle room on this.
 

PMS341

Member
That's kind of a fitting thing to share in this thread.
Gamers as a community failed if they failed to shut the spawn of the creepy coward troupes.
that they would have so little decency to harass people based on their gender or on the flimsiest sets of inconsequential lies.
At least if mobile had taken over completely we would have been rid of this.

It really was upsetting, and of course the higher-ups did nothing to combat it. Many times they would have the girls work alone at night, knowing that these "types" often hung around our stores, clearly not intent on buying anything whatsoever. After bringing it up multiple times, I was told "If they can't handle it, they shouldn't be working here".

I could write essays on everything I saw at my time there, but bullet points will do:

- Shy, timid employee is called a "bitch" and "whore" out loud by an angry customer, who wanted to cash out a gift card that was given to him. Threatens her multiple times. I made him leave, he calls the DM. DM allows the guy to go back to the store after-hours (when the female employee was closing alone, gates down, etc) to get his money back. He also received an extra gift card for his troubles, as did the employee herself (which turned out to be nothing but hush money, really).
- Busy with other customers, one guy refused to speak to a female employee (different than the prior person). He waits ~15-20 minutes for me just to ask "What's the best headset for PS3?" I ask him why he didn't just ask my coworker, to which he simply responded "She's a girl, man." The guy was in his late 20s/early 30s.
- Female employee closing alone had been stalked by the same customer over and over (who was previously banned from other stores for doing the same thing). Asks her if she carries pepper spray, what time she got off work, etc. SM/DM did nothing to combat this, nor did they change her schedule or have someone work with her.
- Lights went out at one of our other stores in the parking lot, leaving it pitch black at night. Given the demographic, this worried some of the employees. They fixed it 6 months after the issue was brought up, though it was called a "non-issue" multiple times.
- Had a bunch of 20-somethings using "This rapes!" as sort of a "cool!" expletive. Obviously made my coworker uncomfortable. I tell them to cut it out, and they seem to stop. After a few minutes, they got closer to the counter (where my coworker was standing) and started saying it louder, looking back every so often for a reaction. I kicked them out.
- Female employee is asked by some holiday hire if she "likes balls in her mouth" while chewing gum. She got pissed and left. Because of that, however, my DM wrote her up for leaving her shift early. She brought the issue to HR, was told to "deal with it", and they just fired them both instead.
- Boost Mobile across the street from one of our stores ends up in the news. Girl working alone, pregnant, gets punched in the face and robbed in the middle of the day. I bring up possible solutions to make sure the girls are always working with someone else, at least for a little bit while they were obviously upset/nervous about the news, and was told by my SM "You know the bank right on the corner is the most robbed bank in the city, right?". As if that helped or solved anything.
- The amount of times I heard "Well, you actually play games, right?" when talking to me over any girl coworker just became too consistent to count.

I could go on and on. It never ends. Retailers, publishers, developers, etc. don't put a stop to behavior like this simply because they would lose customers. The generation of "this is man's land" mentality when it comes to games is simply disgusting, and GamerGate is just something these mobs can latch onto as they feel their Boy's Club is becoming inclusive to other walks of life, which terrifies them. It's all they know, and their personalities are so shaped by it, that the idea of anyone else encroaching on it probably gives them some sort of internal crisis when they realize they lack basic acceptance.
 

kamineko

Does his best thinking in the flying car
I saw ZQ's post about this back on the 10th. Debated making a thread about it, but it just gets so old explaining the same shit again and again. Coming on two years of this, again and again. Some questions (how did I miss this? what is it?) are possibly sincere, while many are just disingenuous bullshit.

& we still get all this lofty talk about "freedom," as if personally directed threats of violence (sexual or otherwise) constitute a profoundly cherished right, some kind of uniquely American phenomenon that we value as a society.

I think it's disappointing that this kind of case can't be won, but I'm more disappointed that this crap is still going on. double-g might have been our fail of the year for 2014, and maybe the world has moved on. It's even been long enough that people can turn up and rattle off obviously false, manufactured bunk that's been known to be untrue since 2014. Now that it's history, it can be revised. That's what's done with history, after all, as soon as folks start to forget. Or stop caring.

Well. I'm glad Crash Override is a thing. These victims need resources and a support system, because obviously the justice system (and other societal support structures) do not even know what this shit is. I hope moving on winds up giving ZQ at least some peace, and wish her luck in her new ventures.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Friendly reminder that Breitbart is a Tea Party site that got involved in shutting down Acorn using slanderous tactics.

Perhaps you should engage your critical thinking skills and understand from my comment that I wasn't endorsing Breitbart. I found it ironic that Google New's top hit for what the other poster mentioned was Breitbart's coverage of Twitter's actions.

Yes, I know what he was stating and that is what I am talking about. The threats being on reddit does not make them any less "real" - this is a pathetic statement, IMO, and is exactly the reason the world is in the state it's in when it comes to piece of shit MRA's, misogynists, etc. A threat is a threat and should be treated as such. There is no wiggle room on this.

A threat isn't a threat where the law and the US Constitution are involved. You have to meet a very specific criteria for it to be actionable and illegal versus a free exercise of speech. Twitter can amend its terms of service to block whatever trolls and misogynists it wants, and more power to them, but you can't seriously expect police and lawmakers to change their definitions of harassment and hate speech to a threshold like Sarkeesian's—where "you suck" would be actionable.
 

Parsnip

Member
Shame.

But I'm not surprised, the last quote about her having to explain some of these things over and over again is exactly what I expected would happen, this time anyway. I can't even imagine how exhausting it must be to fight a legal battle at all, let alone one where judges/officials don't even understand some of the concepts.
 

Par Score

Member
Why do people only ever seem to care about the free speech of assholes, and not the free speech of the people those assholes are harassing, threatening and intimidating into silence?

The liberty to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.
 
Anonymity needs to go away. We should know the fucking retards that threaten rape and murder. Instead they hide behind screen names. Times were better whe not everyone had a voice. Not everyone is worth listening to. People should be held accountable for the things they say.

I can't wait to teach my daughter about the Internet. :|
 

LPride

Banned
I honestly forgot that this entire disgusting movement was basically started because some jaded little boy got his feelings hurt. What a coward.

While it was not a thing that should have been done you cannot act like Eron Gjoni was expecting GamerGate to spring into existence when he made the Zoe Post.

Badmouthing your ex when you find out youve been cheated on (or are under the assumption that you were cheated on) isnt a mature, healthy thing to do but its not like he was plotting an internet revolution when he made a mean spirited post on The Something Awful Forums
 
Why do people only ever seem to care about the free speech of assholes, and not the free speech of the people those assholes are harassing, threatening and intimidating into silence?

The liberty to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.

I really don't know. But it makes these dort of threads an absolute chore with the amount of running around and strawman arguments these types bandy about.

That, or they are JAQ-ing off and they are actually GG'ers, and they don't know it.
 

Biff

Member
Yes, I know what he was stating and that is what I am talking about. The threats being on reddit does not make them any less "real" - this is a pathetic statement, IMO, and is exactly the reason the world is in the state it's in when it comes to piece of shit MRA's, misogynists, etc. A threat is a threat and should be treated as such. There is no wiggle room on this.
No.

You don't understand that you hurt the greater cause when you blow a person's view out of proportion and slam them with terms like "rape apologist" when they very clearly did not mean that at all.

It does NOTHING to change their mind or intellectually challenge their viewpoint. All it does is make them shut down and keep their views to themselves moving forward. Their views remain as strong if not stronger than before, because you make yourself and the position you stand for seem like an assault on their integrity.

Intellectual discourse is the single most important tool, nay, weapon one has to change the world and the issues you see within it. Throw it away and you are doing FAR more harm than good. This is a major problem with my generation and it needs to stop.
 

stuminus3

Member
"The Internet mobs have won."

Not while I have air in my lungs they haven't. The same should be said for each and every one of the rest of you.
 
While it was not a thing that should have been done you cannot act like Eron Gjoni was expecting GamerGate to spring into existence when he made the Zoe Post.

Badmouthing your ex when you find out youve been cheated on (or are under the assumption that you were cheated on) isnt a mature, healthy thing to do but its not like he was plotting an internet revolution when he made a mean spirited post on The Something Awful Forums

As said earlier, he's on record saying that he'd do it again after all this so we can expect him to be held responsible to some degree, at the very least
 

LPride

Banned
As said earlier, he's on record saying that he'd do it again after all this so we can expect him to be held responsible to some degree, at the very least

I dont see how that changes his mindset when he made the post. Are you suggesting that Eron is now a psychic?
 
Intellectual discourse is the single most important tool, nay, weapon one has to change the world and the issues you see within in. Throw it away and you are doing FAR more harm than good. This is a major problem with my generation and it needs to stop.

And yet when MRA's, misogynists, and GG'ers go back to their inherently rehearsed talking points, intellectual discourse is useless. Oftentimes, these chucklefucks WANT you to get into so called civil arguments so they can spread their bullshit.

We don't give time to conspiracy theorists or 9/11 slash Sandy Hook truthers. Why should we give the above groups different?
 

LPride

Banned
And yet when MRA's, misogynists, and GG'ers go back to their inherently rehearsed talking points, intellectual discourse is useless. Oftentimes, these chucklefucks WANT you to get into so called civil arguments so they can spread their bullshit.

We don't give time to conspiracy theorists or 9/11 slash Sandy Hook truthers. Why should we give the above groups different?

Its almost as if whats actually being said doesnt matter anymore because everyones already drawn a line in the sand and has assembled on thier opposing sides. No meaningful discourse is going to get done until GamerGate blows over and dies out since the GG boogeyman (or the aGG boogeyman, if you stand on the other side) already exists. Any time someone wants to have a meaningful conversation youre just gonna hear "Muh Soggy Knees" or whatever.

This isnt about harassment anymore, its just about cheerleading your side. Its turned into a team sport. I look forward to two years down the line when we can have meaningful conversations about these topics again.
 

Nakazato

Member
Gameragate is bullshit. I don't even understand how this is going on in today society.

People need to grow the fuck up. And realize gaming is not a boys club. Or even a white males club.
 

Biff

Member
And yet when MRA's, misogynists, and GG'ers go back to their inherently rehearsed talking points, intellectual discourse is useless. Oftentimes, these chucklefucks WANT you to get into so called civil arguments so they can spread their bullshit.

We don't give time to conspiracy theorists or 9/11 slash Sandy Hook truthers. Why should we give the above groups different?
Because Sephiroth is very clearly none of those people.

He presented a view on the issues between intention and supposition. He did not deserve to be given the labels he was given.

Attack GGers all you want. They are trolls; by definition their views are not intellectual or based in reason and will not be changed. But do not attack and shut down neutral parties with a potentially misinformed opinion. That is what I am referring to.
 
No.

You don't understand that you hurt the greater cause when you blow a person's view out of proportion and slam them with terms like "rape apologist" when they very clearly did not mean that at all.

It does NOTHING to change their mind or intellectually challenge their viewpoint. All it does is make them shut down and keep their views to themselves moving forward. Their views remain as strong if not stronger than before, because you make yourself and the position you stand for seem like an assault on their integrity.

Intellectual discourse is the single most important tool, nay, weapon one has to change the world and the issues you see within in. Throw it away and you are doing FAR more harm than good. This is a major problem with my generation and it needs to stop.
Looking at that comment I don't see how it could be anything else. Whether he/she meant it it like that or not.
Also, if someone "shuts down" or strengthen their "bad" views because some one brought up very fair criticism against them then maybe they aren't ready/mature enough to take part of conversation.
 
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