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Lionhead Studios and Press Play closed. Fable legends cancelled.

Flintty

Member
The silence from MS is only causing confusion and misinformation, this is PR 101 on how not to release news - it's something they used to be good at.

Just now it's amateur hour at Redmond, hope we get clarification over the next few days or so, especially for the good folk at Lionhead.

This. It's a fucking mess. Consultation should have started and finished way before any announcement.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
As previously explained this is due to UK employment law. Legally Microsoft have made a proposal to close the studio, they now have a period of time to consult the employees - 30 days if it's a small number of people affected, 90 days if it's a larger number of people - during which the employees can make counter proposals.

These counter proposals are usually argued by appointed employee representatives on their behalf and whilst proposals to continue the business can be presented this is usually quickly discounted and the negotiations come down to securing the best severance package for employees - I've heard of companies agreeing to fully funded retraining programmes to help folks find new jobs for example.

The key points during this time are the company can't be seen to have already made the decision to make people redundant arbitrarily - like cutting their logo from webpages or suggesting the projects they were working on is dead - as the employees will be able to argue legally that the decision has already been made and there is nothing to be negotiated therefore the company is acting in bad faith.

This is why the press release announcing it was so carefully worded, including the phrasing about commitment to retraining and finding other internal opportunities. I've been through this, I recognise all the wording, in our case I was part of over 500 affected employees and the amount of internal roles we could be reconsidered for? - 4.

Edit: this is why you're also not getting colour commentary of any sort out of popular exec's Twitter feeds.

Thanks for the insight.
 

cilonen

Member
Thanks for the insight.

No worries! I just hope it works out for these folks. What you're seeing Sony do with the recruitment fair is really similar to what happened with us, our company hosted a big open recruitment fair and we had other organisations come in and talk to us as well as financial advisers come in and talk to us and all kinds of support - advice from the government Tax folk on what to do if you wanted to go out on your own and set up your own business etc. I can only hope Microsoft, being a much bigger company are just as "good".

I have to note that I believe that if the workforce is unionised - steelworkers, electricians or something like that things are slightly different as you have a union to argue and negotiate on your behalf - we were not unionised.

Edit
thanks the for the explanation dude.

No worries!
 
As previously explained this is due to UK employment law. Legally Microsoft have made a proposal to close the studio, they now have a period of time to consult the employees - 30 days if it's a small number of people affected, 90 days if it's a larger number of people - during which the employees can make counter proposals.

These counter proposals are usually argued by appointed employee representatives on their behalf and whilst proposals to continue the business can be presented this is usually quickly discounted and the negotiations come down to securing the best severance package for employees - I've heard of companies agreeing to fully funded retraining programmes to help folks find new jobs for example.

The key points during this time are the company can't be seen to have already made the decision to make people redundant arbitrarily - like cutting their logo from webpages or suggesting the projects they were working on is dead - as the employees will be able to argue legally that the decision has already been made and there is nothing to be negotiated therefore the company is acting in bad faith.

This is why the press release announcing it was so carefully worded, including the phrasing about commitment to retraining and finding other internal opportunities. I've been through this, I recognise all the wording, in our case I was part of over 500 affected employees and the amount of internal roles we could be reconsidered for? - 4.

Edit: this is why you're also not getting colour commentary of any sort out of popular exec's Twitter feeds.

thanks the for the explanation dude.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
J was cool

J was the X-box as far as I'm concerned. As soon as he left, I started to have little interest toward the brand and their treatment of the brand and directions they went completely lost me.
 
I like Fable. Loved Fable 1, 2 and even 3. 2 being the highlight of both Microsofts PC gaming failures and the series potential.

I can understand their want for a more sustainable money-making model. But I think they should have went more for a Fable meets Diablo. As that seems like it would fit it more. Not in that it's top-down. But in how Diablo keeps people hooked with loot and randomized stuff.
 
The silence from MS is only causing confusion and misinformation, this is PR 101 on how not to release news - it's something they used to be good at.

Just now it's amateur hour at Redmond, hope we get clarification over the next few days or so, especially for the good folk at Lionhead.

Jesus what's up with Microsoft and their lack of proper communication?
 
Jesus what's up with Microsoft and their lack of proper communication?

They can't just go out and bluntly say "ok, that's it, we're slowly driving Xbox One down. For those who already bought it, tough shit, better luck next time. See you." That's suicide.

They still try to sell as many consoles as they can during the slow closure with the funds they've been granted. They don't need to say anything, but eventually everyone will realise what's happening.

They do what they can to grab the last dollars. Then it's bye bye.

That is how I see the situation. It's unfortunate, but I have a feeling that Xbox hasn't brought any money back to MS. Nadella and shareholders saw what happened to RotTR and new Halo and most likely said "ok, we had a good try, but it's not enough. We're bleeding too much with this hobby and it's time to move on. It's PC time!"
 
They can't just go out and bluntly say "ok, that's it, we're slowly driving Xbox One down. For those who already bought it, tough shit, better luck next time. See you." That's suicide.

They still try to sell as many consoles as they can during the slow closure with the funds they've been granted. They don't need to say anything, but eventually everyone will realise what's happening.

They do what they can to grab the last dollars. Then it's bye bye.

That is how I see the situation. It's unfortunate, but I have doubts that Xbox hasn't brought any money back to MS. Nadella and shareholders saw what happened to RotTR and new Halo and most likely said "ok, we had a good try, but it's not enough. We're bleeding too much with this hobby and it's time to move on. It's PC time!"
Yeah see I have been seeing this alot lately and not sure where this idea is coming from. Last week Phil said we are getting more Xbox hardware and people in that same thread said this is the last console from MS. The PC wouldn't bring in the number of software they would sell on Xbox. Just going to PC would be pretty terrible as well.
 
Yeah see I have been seeing this alot lately and not sure where this idea is coming from. Last week Phil said we are getting more Xbox hardware and people in that same thread said this is the last console from MS. The PC wouldn't bring in the number of software they would sell on Xbox. Just going to PC would be pretty terrible as well.

I think most people think they will keep releasing "Xbox". Just that those Xboxes are going to be more and more like Steam Boxes.
 
I think most people think they will keep releasing "Xbox". Just that those Xboxes are going to be more and more like Steam Boxes.

Not even, they will have the APU's inside of them. And the updates to these system probably wont release every year like the iphone does. Maybe every 3-4 years.
 

_machine

Member
Final team photo:
6f92f440-d67a-4566-a69a-cb5ec0542288-large.jpeg


Hopefully everyone there lands on their feet asap.
 
Yeah see I have been seeing this alot lately and not sure where this idea is coming from. Last week Phil said we are getting more Xbox hardware and people in that same thread said this is the last console from MS. The PC wouldn't bring in the number of software they would sell on Xbox. Just going to PC would be pretty terrible as well.

Yes, it's strange how people interpret things. They see a certain proposal, take the opposite meaning of said proposal, then state their altered version of the proposal as fact lol!

Always baffling to me. Anyway...

Microsoft tried a different strategy with Xbox this go around, and got burned badly. Many changes needed to be made, and many changes continue to be made. This generation is a non starter for them basically and they need to go back to the drawing board.

All real indications, at least to me, lead to MS making a new console, I doubt Phil Spencer would have said it otherwise. People have gone off the deep end (again lol) suggesting all kinds of things. From upgradeable hardware to incremental revisions, and even a set top box!

Phil didn't mention any of those, only that we will see new hardware from them within a typical generation length. Those suggestions also sound highly unlikely to me. Upgradeable hardware has been outright dismissed. Incremental hardware sounds like a whole load of confusion for the audience it sells to. The STB idea they basically tried this gen and failed.

That for me leaves a regular games console. Cut the XB1 life short and start again with something much better, and that a lot of people actually want. While of course now giving PC 'ports' attention to help keep profitability up.

Despite this generations failings, Xbox is too big to just call it a day. It's too big to just make a few PC games too. They either sell the brand entirely or continue with it.
 
Yeah see I have been seeing this alot lately and not sure where this idea is coming from. Last week Phil said we are getting more Xbox hardware and people in that same thread said this is the last console from MS. The PC wouldn't bring in the number of software they would sell on Xbox. Just going to PC would be pretty terrible as well.

Xbox as a brand isn't going anywhere. It's a well known brand. But it will most likely become a "steambox", a Win10Box, in the PC space.
 
Yes, it's strange how people interpret things. They see a certain proposal, take the opposite meaning of said proposal, then state their altered version of the proposal as fact lol!

Always baffling to me. Anyway...

Read the quote below. It's pretty clear what Microsoft is doing.

Microsoft Studios is now publishing only the biggest hits
Let's just recap Microsoft's generation in review:
- Start Lift London
- Downsize the XBLA/Microsoft Studios team because MS doesn't want to be in the business of publishing so many indie games
- Close Microsoft Victoria
- Cancel Black Tusk's original game and make them the Gears studio
- Close Xbox Entertainment Studios
- Buy Mojang
- Merge Lift London with other UK-based small teams
- Promote Kudo to oversee Lift London and other UK based teams
- Kudo transfered out of Microsoft Games
- Spin off Twisted Pixel Games
- Close Press Play
- Close Lionhead

In light of the W10/Xbox One news recently, I would interpret this as the following: Microsoft does not see themselves as a hardware platform owner anymore. As a result, their interest in developing games is no longer about establishing a diverse portfolio (even at a loss), but instead about just publishing games only if they make reliable money with no risk. Hence why they're willing to sign with outside partners, and hence why they're still making Halo, Forza, Minecraft, and Gears. If you were going to transition away from the hardware model but still wanted to publish the odd game and didn't want to shut down the division at all, this is exactly what you'd do. Besides these franchises, almost all of Microsoft's first-party partners are now working on Hololens, and it's not clear that Hololens is going to be a consumer focused gaming product during the Xbox One's lifespan. The exceptions: the Project Spark team (W10/XO--whose game got shut down) and Decisive Games (presumably working on AoE, for W10/XO), and Rare.

As it relates to Press Play, Microsoft's purchase never really made any sense to begin with, just as it didn't with Twisted Pixel, but my thoughts at the time were that it was driven by wanting to have a robust portfolio of indie exclusives as other indie titles went increasingly multiplatform. Neither company had mega hits, although both had some success. In addition, neither company was all that large, so shutting them down isn't just a vote of non-confidence, it's a vote that they aren't even interested in owning those types of companies.

Microsoft did a pretty crap job of making use of Lionhead
Finally, separate from the musing about Microsoft Studios, I think Lionhead Studios has been treated extremely poorly by Microsoft. Microsoft did not secure Black & White from EA or The Movies from Activision when they bought Lionhead. The lack of care about the studio's non-Fable history was palpable. Also let it be noted that every non-Fable game they worked on under Microsoft got cancelled. Which would be OK if they cared about Fable, but here's what they did with Fable:
- Fable 1 gets a late PC port
- Fable 2 never gets a PC port
- Fable 3 gets a GFWL PC port that gets discontinued years ago when they run out of keys, MS never bothers to remove GFWL
- Fable Heroes never gets a PC port
- Fable The Journey never gets a PC port
- Fable Anniversary gets a late PC port with a rocky launch
- Fable Legends cancelled during beta

Microsoft sucks at F2P
Let's talk about free to play, though. Free to play is a pretty exciting business model for publishers and fans alike, if executed properly. MS has really sent some big signals about F2P and their interest in it. How have they done?

- In Summer 2011, Microsoft publishes Age of Empires Online for PC (GFWL). The game was developed by Robot Entertainment, also known as the company that formed when Microsoft closed Ensemble Studios (the previous developers of Age of Empires). Microsoft had Ensemble develop a console exclusive RTS which ended up being a huge hit but then closed them because I guess they didn't want a PC studio? Who knows? The game started as basically a free demo that required you to pay to buy into most of the content. It also started as a busywork grind. A year later, Microsoft, having basically bungled the game's first year, released the game on Steam (still required GFWL) and lowered the prices. This also did not work. Then a few months later they made the game actually F2P--you could unlock all the content by grinding, or pay to accelerate. A little under 2 years after release, they discontinued development on the game. 8 months later they shut down the servers. As the game is online only, it can no longer be played.
- In 2011, Microsoft publishes Crimson Alliance for XBLA as free to play. Except it turns out they don't understand free to play and the game costs money to play. When they are asked about this, they explain that the demo is free to play (as it was for every other XBLA game released on Xbox 360). ??? Great game, no followup, developer is now a support studio for Halo, no chance of game being ported to a modern platform.
- In 2012, Microsoft launches Windows 8. A variety of the launch games for the platform are "Free to Play", including a great little point and click / hidden object hybrid called Adera. The free to play model for Adera is that you can play the first quarter for free and then pay for the rest. So, again, a demo. Other games are actually free to play, but they're versions of games that used to be entirely free. One game is an endless runner called Gunstringer Dead Man Running. Gunstringer is F2P with currency in a similar model to, say, Jetpack Joyride. This game is shut down in 2014.
- In 2012, Microsoft launches Microsoft Flight, a free to play revival of Flight Simulator. Again, the free content is basically a demo, so it's clear they don't understand Free to Play. The game is locked behind GFWL and is PC exclusive. Five months later, they ceased development on the game, leaving it with nowhere near enough content. In 2013, they removed the ability to purchase any of the content or download the game. In 2014, they shut the servers. Note that Microsoft previously killed the team that made Flight Simulator and then created a new team for this project.
- In October 2012, Microsoft launches the first traditionally F2P game on XBLA: Happy Wars, a Japanese-developed tug of war team based hack and slash multiplayer game. This game went pretty well, although they realized that the business model with F2P is attracting as many people as possible so that you can monetize whales, which was at odds with the whole "you need to pay $50 a year to be able to download this game". It's fine, because the developer went ahead and ported the game to Steam without Microsoft. On Steam it has a few million players.
- In May 2013, Microsoft releases Crash Course 2, a sequel to the free Doritos advertorial game Crash Course. It is pretty well received and very popular, millions on the leaderboards near release. Around the same time they release Crash Course Go, a version of the game for Windows 8. Both games are cancelled less than a year after release and the servers shut down effective immediately.
- In July 2013, Microsoft announces Lift London is working on 4 F2P games. None ever release or are announced.
- In September 2013, Microsoft publishes Ascend: New Gods, by Signal Studios, the popular developers of the Toy Soldiers franchise. This is an F2P dungeon crawl 3rd person ARPG, kinda like Kingdoms of Amalur or Elder Scrolls or a more mechanically intense Fable. The game is actually super popular, lots of people play it. Less than a year after release, Microsoft cancels the game, removes it from sale, and gives everyone 3 day's notice about a server shutdown. Also they do not tell the developer, Signal Studios, who is completely blindsided. Signal ports the game to Steam, where it did OK for a while. It's still available. Signal hasn't worked with Microsoft since.
- A little bit before shutting down Ascend: New Gods, Microsoft shows the first footage of Fable Legends. At the time, the game is not specified as F2P, but it's later clarified to be F2P and Xbox One/Windows 10 cross-play. Microsoft teases 5-10 years of support--that this is the Fable series as we know it going forward. Fable Legends is cancelled during open beta.
- In summer 2014, Microsoft betas Project Spark, a game creation game that's F2P with Microtransactions. The game discontinues development and goes free a year after release, the F2P model having not worked at all.
- In June 2015, Microsoft confirms that they are publishing Gigantic, an Xbox One/Windows 10 cross-play F2P MOBA by indie developer Motiga. The game is in closed beta and moving to open beta this summer. Well, maybe, because a month ago the developer announced significant layoffs.

These are not all of Microsoft's F2P failures--I could also talk about the semi-F2P business model of Game Room, which failed, Microsoft's bad attempts to make their old free Windows parlour games (Minesweeper, Mahjong, Solitaire) into money-making opportunities but instead alienating their audience, Age of Empires: Castle Siege (a bad Clash of Clans clone).

I could also talk about the failure of their cloud gaming initiative by exploring how just about every Microsoft server-based game has been shut down. I could also talk about how Galactic Reign, released by Microsoft as a bold experiment in cloud-based rendering of cutscenes -- pay attention if you like Quantum Break -- shut down 6 months after release, leaving players unable to play the game. I could also talk about how all of Microsoft's major initiatives with the Xbox One: Smartglass, Cloud-based Rendering or Computing Features, and Dedicated Servers are all defunct.


Microsoft is the absolute master of failing at things even when it'd be easier to succeed. The good news is, pretty soon they'll have no more internal studios to shut down besides the ones reliably pumping out their biggest franchises every two years. As someone who bought a lot of Microsoft Game Studios titles and really loved so much of what they accomplished on 360, it sucks that shifting corporate priorities and an unwillingness to fully commit to gaming sabotaged so much of what they could have accomplished.
 
I thought the Kotaku UK tweet yesterday was classless and complete trash. Glad it was taken down.

My heart goes out to the folks who worked hard on Fable Legends. I can't imagine being told the thing you've been working on for so long (as YOUR JOB) was just being destroyed and would never come to market.
 

Stanng243

Member
I thought the Kotaku UK tweet yesterday was classless and complete trash. Glad it was taken down.

My heart goes out to the folks who worked hard on Fable Legends. I can't imagine being told the thing you've been working on for so long (as YOUR JOB) was just being destroyed and would never come to market.

What tweet are you referencing?
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Yes, it's strange how people interpret things. They see a certain proposal, take the opposite meaning of said proposal, then state their altered version of the proposal as fact lol!

Always baffling to me. Anyway...

Microsoft tried a different strategy with Xbox this go around, and got burned badly. Many changes needed to be made, and many changes continue to be made. This generation is a non starter for them basically and they need to go back to the drawing board.

All real indications, at least to me, lead to MS making a new console, I doubt Phil Spencer would have said it otherwise. People have gone off the deep end (again lol) suggesting all kinds of things. From upgradeable hardware to incremental revisions, and even a set top box!

Phil didn't mention any of those, only that we will see new hardware from them within a typical generation length. Those suggestions also sound highly unlikely to me. Upgradeable hardware has been outright dismissed. Incremental hardware sounds like a whole load of confusion for the audience it sells to. The STB idea they basically tried this gen and failed.

That for me leaves a regular games console. Cut the XB1 life short and start again with something much better, and that a lot of people actually want. While of course now giving PC 'ports' attention to help keep profitability up.

Despite this generations failings, Xbox is too big to just call it a day. It's too big to just make a few PC games too. They either sell the brand entirely or continue with it.

The thing that your omitting is the bigger market MS wants in on. It's the whole point of them having windows 10 on xbox. They want people to buy apps and games. They want people to see value in a connected ecosystem like windows 10/store.
ANd that are doing this at the gamers expense. You will see another console from them, but it's going to be running a more local version of windows for sure. You will be able to do regular desktop apps. ANd when they do a refresh you may see them partner with third party manufacturer's like steam box did.

I think we will see a MS branded box first, then after a while they will offer third party PC's that can run both regular windows and xbox windows. Once and if those do take off, then I don't think they will be making dedicated hardware that is directly from them.
They will rely on third party, and throw in a licensed controller.

If they cared about traditional gaming Lion head wouldn't be closing. They also would have had another separate team make FL, and have the main team make another true fable successor or something new entirely.
 
What tweet are you referencing?

Yesterday someone on staff at Kotaku UK tweeted in regards to the Rare "Sea of Thieves Competition" something along the lines of "see the studio before MS closes it"...

I thought it was relevant in my post, though not directly related to Lionhead. Well, maybe it was. I dunno. It just rubbed me the wrong way. I guess as I was writing my post I was thinking about it in regards to Lionhead.
 
Read the quote below. It's pretty clear what Microsoft is doing.

See to be fair, that's just an opinion. It might be very well thought out and articulated but it's still just an opinion none the less.

Unless I'm wrong and the person in question has insider knowledge at the top level as to the direction that Microsoft are taking?
 
Xbox as a brand isn't going anywhere. It's a well known brand. But it will most likely become a "steambox", a Win10Box, in the PC space.

I just can't see that myself. There's a pretty clear divide between console gamers and PC gamers, which leads to a clear divide in hardware types. Anything in-between to me is kinda blurry, and you don't want a blurry product.

Steambox's are hardly flying off the shelves right now. The XB1 has already basically tried the all in one box and has failed to sell in significant numbers.

Read the quote below. It's pretty clear what Microsoft is doing.

Already read it. I agree with some points and not others. Microsoft have never had a big focus on internal development for one. I don't think it's pretty clear what's going to happen with Xbox in the next 5 - 10 years at all.

We can all make our own guesses, but time will tell.

The thing that your omitting is the bigger market MS wants in on. It's the whole point of them having windows 10 on xbox. They want people to buy apps and games. They want people to see value in a connected ecosystem like windows 10/store.
ANd that are doing this at the gamers expense. You will see another console from them, but it's going to be running a more local version of windows for sure. You will be able to do regular desktop apps. ANd when they do a refresh you may see them partner with third party manufacturer's like steam box did.

I think we will see a MS branded box first, then after a while they will offer third party PC's that can run both regular windows and xbox windows. Once and if those do take off, then I don't think they will be making dedicated hardware that is directly from them.
They will rely on third party, and throw in a licensed controller.

If they cared about traditional gaming Lion head wouldn't be closing. They also would have had another separate team make FL, and have the main team make another true fable successor or something new entirely.

That bigger market has passed them by. At least for now. They tried to capture it in a big way with the XB1 and failed, I don't see them going straight back at it. In the meantime they still have a big gaming brand with Xbox which they can focus on.

I think people also read a lot into the whole Windows 10 thing too. All consoles run an operating system these days. They have to because consoles do all sorts now. Just because MS have a more famous one that's used elsewhere doesn't really make it different.

Closing Lionhead has nothing to do with them "caring about gaming". They were a studio who haven't had any real success in years, along with a new game with little to zero public interest. An unprofitable arm they they chose to cut off and likely purely a business decision. As I've said before, Xbox has never has a big focus on internal development. Outsourcing most of your games is an efficient way of working.
 

Elandyll

Banned
I just can't see that myself. There's a pretty clear divide between console gamers and PC gamers, which leads to a clear divide in hardware types. Anything in-between to me is kinda blurry, and you don't want a blurry product.

.
A small form HTPC with the label "Xbox Infinity" featuring a tablet version interface of Win10 would for the larger public be the same thing as a custom designed Xbox with a tablet interface of Win10.
The only ones seeing a major difference would be MS (R&D pretty much inexistent), and the devs (same platform as PC, just have to auto detect fixed settings).
There's no "blur", and it's very much in lign with where they've been going so far.
 
I thought the Kotaku UK tweet yesterday was classless and complete trash. Glad it was taken down.

My heart goes out to the folks who worked hard on Fable Legends. I can't imagine being told the thing you've been working on for so long (as YOUR JOB) was just being destroyed and would never come to market.
Well said.
 

onQ123

Member
I just can't see that myself. There's a pretty clear divide between console gamers and PC gamers, which leads to a clear divide in hardware types. Anything in-between to me is kinda blurry, and you don't want a blurry product.

Steambox's are hardly flying off the shelves right now. The XB1 has already basically tried the all in one box and has failed to sell in significant numbers.



Already read it. I agree with some points and not others. Microsoft have never had a big focus on internal development for one. I don't think it's pretty clear what's going to happen with Xbox in the next 5 - 10 years at all.

We can all make our own guesses, but time will tell.

Xbox SoC was designed to end up as a embedded SoC that will go into STB & things like that but more importantly is that UWP & UWA don't even need the Xbox SoC to be in the next generation of STB , Laptops & so on for MS to move the Xbox games & apps over to Windows 10 devices going forward.
 
The silence from MS is only causing confusion and misinformation, this is PR 101 on how not to release news - it's something they used to be good at.

Just now it's amateur hour at Redmond, hope we get clarification over the next few days or so, especially for the good folk at Lionhead.

So consider it the other way around. Suppose they did consultation for all the folks at LH and made no public announcement. Leaks and stories would start instantly and you'd be here posting about Microsoft causing confusion and misinformation and wondering why they didn't make a statement, no doubt.
 

ironcreed

Banned
I have loved Xbox since the first one, but I also am a guy who calls a spade a spade. They need to change the way they handle their studios and they damn sure need to be more open in general. Their messaging as of late is bold, yet baffling. That's all I can really say.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
I just can't see that myself. There's a pretty clear divide between console gamers and PC gamers, which leads to a clear divide in hardware types. Anything in-between to me is kinda blurry, and you don't want a blurry product.

Steambox's are hardly flying off the shelves right now. The XB1 has already basically tried the all in one box and has failed to sell in significant numbers.



Already read it. I agree with some points and not others. Microsoft have never had a big focus on internal development for one. I don't think it's pretty clear what's going to happen with Xbox in the next 5 - 10 years at all.

We can all make our own guesses, but time will tell.



That bigger market has passed them by. At least for now. They tried to capture it in a big way with the XB1 and failed, I don't see them going straight back at it. In the meantime they still have a big gaming brand with Xbox which they can focus on.

I think people also read a lot into the whole Windows 10 thing too. All consoles run an operating system these days. They have to because consoles do all sorts now. Just because MS have a more famous one that's used elsewhere doesn't really make it different.

Closing Lionhead has nothing to do with them "caring about gaming". They were a studio who haven't had any real success in years, along with a new game with little to zero public interest. An unprofitable arm they they chose to cut off and likely purely a business decision. As I've said before, Xbox has never has a big focus on internal development. Outsourcing most of your games is an efficient way of working.

With over 110 Million users using windows 10 I would say your wrong. WIth XBox platform going to PC, they will have that many potential users to have them get into xbox as a brand. WHich is why they are bringing their big titles over to it, and is also why they bought Majong. You can run Minecraft on a tablet. So why not it be a tablet with windows 10? Or a pc with windows 10. Once people can use the xbox interface on their PC, and be able to communicate, play with people on xbox consoles with games like minecraft it's only a matter of time before it grows. Windows 10 is the most adopted windows OS they have ever put out.

What passed them by was their vision in the living room. WHich is why their focus is using their OS to get into bed with people since it has so many users already.

To your second question about Lion head wtf, are you def? Lion head's direction on what they developed was under Microsft's guidence. Microsoft approached them because they sign their paychecks. MS wanted to shove kinect down everyones throats so they had Lion head make Fable journey, then a xbox live arcade game fable heroes, then they wanted some of that renewable Mobo money so they had them make a game that was not fable but Micro-transaction focused, so they could run it like s ervice. WHich is how they are treating windows 10, it's a platform they will continue to build upon. No more windows 11, windows 12. Just regular updates like MAC osx has been for along time.

Microsoft Killed Lionhead by not managing it correctly as in giving them freedom in what they are good at, instead of giving them incentives to make games that are not close to what they are use to making.

Lionhead made black and white , and fable. Both great unique games, and they could have continued making sequels or new IP's. But Microsoft just want's quarterly income, not a robust IP legacy.

Lionhead's demise is not on them, it's on the higher ups that let them develop the crap they did the past couple years. If they were more nurturing to creativity and new AAA IP's Lion head, Ensemble could have been big players this gen for them. But then again XBOX division is overseen by MS which cares about renewable quarterly profit and not long term gain. Their vision of long term gain was having xbox one be your main cable/entertainment box. Instead of a video game console first.
 
With over 110 Million users using windows 10 I would say your wrong. WIth XBox platform going to PC, they will have that many potential users to have them get into xbox as a brand. WHich is why they are bringing their big titles over to it, and is also why they bought Majong. You can run Minecraft on a tablet. So why not it be a tablet with windows 10? Or a pc with windows 10. Once people can use the xbox interface on their PC, and be able to communicate, play with people on xbox consoles with games like minecraft it's only a matter of time before it grows. Windows 10 is the most adopted windows OS they have ever put out.

What passed them by was their vision in the living room. WHich is why their focus is using their OS to get into bed with people since it has so many users already.

To your second question about Lion head wtf, are you def? Lion head's direction on what they developed was under Microsft's guidence. Microsoft approached them because they sign their paychecks. MS wanted to shove kinect down everyones throats so they had Lion head make Fable journey, then a xbox live arcade game fable heroes, then they wanted some of that renewable Mobo money so they had them make a game that was not fable but Micro-transaction focused, so they could run it like s ervice. WHich is how they are treating windows 10, it's a platform they will continue to build upon. No more windows 11, windows 12. Just regular updates like MAC osx has been for along time.

Microsoft Killed Lionhead by not managing it correctly as in giving them freedom in what they wanted to make, instead of giving them incentives to make games that are not close to what they are use to making.

Lionhead mad black and white and fable. Both great unique games, and they could have continued making sequels or new IP's. But Microsoft just want's quarterly income, not a robust IP legacy.

I understand they are making a push for games on existing devices., PC tablet etc under Windows 10. But I'm talking about a new product here, as suggested by Phil Spencer the other day.

As for your Lionhead comments. First don't be so rude, if you can't converse like an adult then don't try talking to one. Be civil.

Second, you make some pretty bold claims there around the operation of the studio. Do you have any real evidence?

It's actually common that big studios work on games of their own choosing. Peter Molyneux loved Fable and Kinect etc. We have no idea with regards to the operation and output of Lionhead.
 
So consider it the other way around. Suppose they did consultation for all the folks at LH and made no public announcement. Leaks and stories would start instantly and you'd be here posting about Microsoft causing confusion and misinformation and wondering why they didn't make a statement, no doubt.

I would prefer that it didn't come out of the blue for the employees at Lionhead and even when they release there statement informing us of there plans its still unclear exactly how this was going to play out. Forget the taking down of the Lionhead logo from the Microsoft site only to be put back up again or that Press Play have been prototyping there new game with open community input and such a big deal was made about us choosing what they were going to make or that they just moved to new improved offices in January.

This is a complete mess of a situation of Microsofts on doing.

And to be fair, I don't think you do know what I would or wouldn't post if the situation was reversed :)
 

hawk2025

Member
So consider it the other way around. Suppose they did consultation for all the folks at LH and made no public announcement. Leaks and stories would start instantly and you'd be here posting about Microsoft causing confusion and misinformation and wondering why they didn't make a statement, no doubt.

Seems to me like that would still have the advantage of actually providing support for the actual employees being impacted.

The clear evidence we have is that they blindsided two studios with a sudden shutdown. That's the short of it.

If the PR hit will happen anyways as you imply (which, by the way, I think is poor form to project on another poster assuming you know how he/she would react, but that's besides the point), it seems to me like a good idea to it right by the employees instead.
 
I guess now that Microsoft are leaving the console market and refocusing on PC it might make sense for them to basically take the major IPs they've got; Gear, Halo, Forza and to a lesser extent Halo and the Rare franchises - and in future just lease them out to external developers and remain the publishers only, despite the closing of first party studios as part of the wind down of the Xbox division. Those franchises already reached peak cache (and are now on the decline) so there's no need for them to continually invest in them internally when they aren't looking to foster the library of any more home consoles.
 
I guess now that Microsoft are leaving the console market and refocusing on PC it might make sense for them to basically take the major IPs they've got; Gear, Halo, Forza and to a lesser extent Halo and the Rare franchises - and in future just lease them out to external developers and remain the publishers only, despite the closing of first party studios as part of the wind down of the Xbox division. Those franchises already reached peak cache (and are now on the decline) so there's no need for them to continually invest in them internally when they aren't looking to foster the library of any more home consoles.

dontfeedthetroll.gif
 

VinFTW

Member
Days later and I'm still utterly heartbroken and angry.


WHY NOT JUST LET THEM TRY ANOTHER PROJECT? WHY JUST CLOSE THEM SO IMMEDIATELY? ITS ONE OF YOUR BIGGEST TEAMS WITH SUCH CREATIVE POTENTIAL AND TALENT.

Fuck, excuse the caps. :/
 

NoPiece

Member
I just can't see that myself. There's a pretty clear divide between console gamers and PC gamers, which leads to a clear divide in hardware types. Anything in-between to me is kinda blurry, and you don't want a blurry product.

Seems like this was true a couple generations ago when there was a huge gap in the style of games. Consoles were more Japanese-game centric (platformers, fighting games. jRPG), PC games more western focused (simulation, strategy, cRPG).

Games and gamers are mostly the same across PC/Consoles, in large part becasue of Microsoft's entry into the console space. Everyone is playing games like CoD, Fallout, Street FIghter, Minecraft on PC and consoles. Console exclusives only exist now to drive hardware sales, not because they wouldn't work or sell on PC.
 
And to be fair, I don't think you do know what I would or wouldn't post if the situation was reversed :)
Fair comment. I was annoyed at someone in another thread and posted grumpily here. Fwiw I'm devastated at this as it impacts one of my oldest friends and another day another dollar could have also hit me.
 

Maxrunner

Member
Yesterday someone on staff at Kotaku UK tweeted in regards to the Rare "Sea of Thieves Competition" something along the lines of "see the studio before MS closes it"...

I thought it was relevant in my post, though not directly related to Lionhead. Well, maybe it was. I dunno. It just rubbed me the wrong way. I guess as I was writing my post I was thinking about it in regards to Lionhead.
Ms closes it so that nintendo opens it again all according to keikaku GIF...
 
Seems to me like that would still have the advantage of actually providing support for the actual employees being impacted.

The clear evidence we have is that they blindsided two studios with a sudden shutdown. That's the short of it.
on a purely practical note, having been in a "consultancy" situation, there's only one moment that matters which is when you get that unexpected must-attend meeting and they tell you what's going on. Any of the fluff around it is irrelevant and has no impact: You're still in the situation where you're worrying about your rent/mortgage, finding another job, and realising that you're going to be competing with your mates.

I can't think of any way in which redundancies DON'T blindside you. It's the nature of the beast, unless it somehow leaks to the press and you hear rumours that you might be in the part of the org that's affected, then at least you go into work prepared.
 
Seems like this was true a couple generations ago when there was a huge gap in the style of games. Consoles were more Japanese-game centric (platformers, fighting games. jRPG), PC games more western focused (simulation, strategy, cRPG).

Games and gamers are mostly the same across PC/Consoles, in large part becasue of Microsoft's entry into the console space. Everyone is playing games like CoD, Fallout, Street FIghter, Minecraft on PC and consoles. Console exclusives only exist now to drive hardware sales, not because they wouldn't work or sell on PC.

Yeah true, but I didn't really mean that, I was more talking about hardware. I think the majority of console players like console hardware because it's cheap and easy to use. On the other hand PC's that are better than consoles for games generally attract a different market.

Some people seem to be suggesting some kind of new Xbox that's a bit of both. A weak all in one gaming PC basically or a set top box?, and I'm not sure which market want's that. For me they have more or less already tried that with the XB1 and failed.

I'm just saying I think it's more likely they will stick to a console, which can obviously still do all the multimedia stuff. But the main thing is it's marketed as a games console.

All of course based on Phil Spencer's words during his stage presentation that "We will see them come out with new hardware within a typical generation time".
 

hawk2025

Member
on a purely practical note, having been in a "consultancy" situation, there's only one moment that matters which is when you get that unexpected must-attend meeting and they tell you what's going on. Any of the fluff around it is irrelevant and has no impact: You're still in the situation where you're worrying about your rent/mortgage, finding another job, and realising that you're going to be competing with your mates.

I can't think of any way in which redundancies DON'T blindside you. It's the nature of the beast, unless it somehow leaks to the press and you hear rumours that you might be in the part of the org that's affected, then at least you go into work prepared.

I... guess. Just a shitty situation all around. All approaches pretty much suck. Feels bad to even think about :(
 

shingi70

Banned
Mechanical web shooters, FTW!

sqkRiLu.png

Wrong thread friend. But yeah that's the best route for ol webhead,


I'm still bummed out about this news. I thought Lionhead had another Single Player RPG in the works alongside Legends. Shame about Press Play they made some nice platforms to pad out the Xbox Library.
 
After all the news this week and the additional rumors I've been hearing I'm seriously thinking about trading my Xbox one and games for steam credit and be done with it. At least before they are worthless. I play my WiiU more and I hardly ever play my WiiU. Also I'm seriously concerned that the Xbox One days are numbered. I don't have any interest in getting a ps4 either.
 
After all the news this week and the additional rumors I've been hearing I'm seriously thinking about trading my Xbox one and games for steam credit and be done with it. At least before they are worthless. I play my WiiU more and I hardly ever play my WiiU. Also I'm seriously concerned that the Xbox One days are numbered. I don't have any interest in getting a ps4 either.

What additional rumours are those?
 
After all the news this week and the additional rumors I've been hearing I'm seriously thinking about trading my Xbox one and games for steam credit and be done with it. At least before they are worthless. I play my WiiU more and I hardly ever play my WiiU. Also I'm seriously concerned that the Xbox One days are numbered. I don't have any interest in getting a ps4 either.

What additional rumors? You are going to be missing out on a lot of games. Quantum Break, Recore, Gears 4, Scalebound,Halo Wars 2, Crackdown 3. Some users are only speculating but poorly I will admit.
 
Days later and I'm still utterly heartbroken and angry.


WHY NOT JUST LET THEM TRY ANOTHER PROJECT? WHY JUST CLOSE THEM SO IMMEDIATELY? ITS ONE OF YOUR BIGGEST TEAMS WITH SUCH CREATIVE POTENTIAL AND TALENT.

Fuck, excuse the caps. :/

They did have another project. ;/
 
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