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Patrick Klepek: Sony possibly looking at increasing Neo specs due to Scorpio
- Thread starter Obliterator
- Start date
Munki
Member
Wishmaster92
Member
Didn't that tech demo use nurbs for the hair? That was impossible on ps2 iirc, not sure about ps3 but i would say the same apparently it's very resource intensive. Last i knew only final fantasy 15 used it for the hair. Anyways i would love to see some new tech demos at the event, but ones that set realistic expectations of what the system can do and not like the dark sorcerer, deep down, uncharted 4 e3 2014.Tekken as a whole? Yes. Tekken Tag Tournament? Nah.
Soul Calibur on DC was obviously handicapped, by nature of being on the DC (still sold over a million on a sub 9 million lifetime console though), but Soul Calibur 2 for example showed how much appeal the series had (until Soul Calibur 3 shat the bed).
But yes, I am mostly talking about the first few months, because the console was still flying off the shelves before the heavy-hitters arrived.. and it had halted the Dreamcast long before it even hit the shelves. It wasn't simply because it was a new PlayStation, the phrase "I'm waiting for the PS2" increased exponentially when this happened:
I remember even Sega fansites and publications were shitting themselves over it.
CosmicQueso
Member
Quoteception.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I forgot to respond to your post I was going to post about AMD multi teraflop APUs coming
Ah, ok cool.
I just noticed that... good stuff. It is much needed for APU's.
Hahaha.
I miss Gamepro's review scale, lol.
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
in my humble opinion, this should be quoted in the OP
THE:MILKMAN
Member
To be clear does this mean changes from Jaguar/4.2TF and they would be relatively small?
I guess that would be obvious.
But at this point its just not going to have any major changes anyway, which is what i was trying to argue earlier in the thread. Its generally pointless to get hyped up over
You caused this now you say keep expectations in check lol
but on another note why not say exactly what you heard since it's only a few weeks before we know if the changes will happen or not.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Realistically the only things at this point of time Sony could do without sending the console a year back are change in clock speed or replacement of RAM module with a better one in the same position. Upgrading the chips would require taping out again (6-9 months at least) plus redoing motherboard, testing, certification (3-6 months).
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You caused this now you say keep expectations in check lol
but on another note why not say exactly what you heard since it's only a few weeks before we know if the changes will happen or not.
slavesnyder
Member
They don't need to change a thing. Only come out asap.
The crazy thing is people wanting Neo to be 5 - 6TF just because it's what Scorpio has without even seeing what Neo can do with 4.2TF.
People went from thinking Neo would only be a PS4 with 4K media to losing their minds when they found out it was 2X the power of the PS4 & now it's not good enough just because MS announced a console that will be coming out a year later with 6TF.
at the end of the day it's PS4 games in 4K & no matter how they achieve this 4K it's going to be the best looking PS4 games you will be able to play.
People went from thinking Neo would only be a PS4 with 4K media to losing their minds when they found out it was 2X the power of the PS4 & now it's not good enough just because MS announced a console that will be coming out a year later with 6TF.
at the end of the day it's PS4 games in 4K & no matter how they achieve this 4K it's going to be the best looking PS4 games you will be able to play.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Consoles should be compared to phone and tablets more than PC's if you go for teratogenic model and there the situation is even more clear. Older OS's and devices do hold you back.
I am all for BC in consoles, but we do not need the perpetual cross generation but with forwardncompatibility and consoles coming out every 2-3 years...
We do have to go full forward compatibility to still avoid breaking tools and game engines/pipelines each generation. PS4 does not need to be forward compatible with PS5 and PS5 with PS6 to achieve savings and I do not think that the return on investment for gamers and developers of going full iOS style is worth it. The console model still works, there are benefits to developers being able to rely on a fixed spec they have quite direct and deterministic access to and can optimise for... and PC users see the benefit on their side too as it is easier for deve to use PC HW to deliver easy frame rate and resolution+effects boosts... it is also thanks to developers targeting console specs.
I say that what MS and Sony are doing is the same thing as a fact. Everything that is known is that they are building a family of products (just as you say) that run the same games as their predecessors going forward. Those are "facts" with the information that is given to us.
To me, a rolling generation would mean that a new system will come out but have backward compatibility with the older gen (ps4/xb1) games and a developer has a choice to make it available for the family lower end systems if they wanted to. Basically exclusive games for that console but the tech within the console, the OS, the features are all the same. When we have generation changes, we always have a new OS, devs have to use new tools, new controllers, etc... Rolling generation to me means that you have mostly compatibility within the ecosystem, a spec bump, and devs can have choice of support.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
You would think. I haven't seen Patrick mention specs so would like to clarify what base any changes would be from.
Goose_Se7en
Banned
I'm pretty sure not to you, but to everyone else that is the definition of a "rolling generation".
Patrick Young
Member
They could put a Vita in there!
SlipperyFishes
Banned
Why not just treat the entry ps4 as the medium grade graphics equivalent of a slider?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I really hope Sony doesnt react to MS's bait and increase the power because that would only increase the price. Right now a 4.2 Tflop console is looking good for a $399 2016 release, but anything more could either increase that to $499 or push it back to 2017.
Sony's biggest advantage here is that they would have beaten Microsoft to the market by a full year. No matter how powerful the Scorpio is, people who want to play Battlefield 1 at 1080p 60 fps, CoD at 1440p 60 fps, Mass Effect at 60 fps, Uncharted 4 at 60 fps, FFXV at 60 fps would've already bought the Neo by then.
I am sure some MS fans would wait it out but looking at the MS userbase, those are not people Sony should be concerned about anyway.
A 4.2 Tflop console is just fine for the rest of this gen. 99% of PS4 games already run at 1080p 30 fps. They should just focus on making them run at 60 fps and maybe fix some of those AA and AF issues. No need to worry about 4k when barely anyone even has 4k.
Sony's biggest advantage here is that they would have beaten Microsoft to the market by a full year. No matter how powerful the Scorpio is, people who want to play Battlefield 1 at 1080p 60 fps, CoD at 1440p 60 fps, Mass Effect at 60 fps, Uncharted 4 at 60 fps, FFXV at 60 fps would've already bought the Neo by then.
I am sure some MS fans would wait it out but looking at the MS userbase, those are not people Sony should be concerned about anyway.
A 4.2 Tflop console is just fine for the rest of this gen. 99% of PS4 games already run at 1080p 30 fps. They should just focus on making them run at 60 fps and maybe fix some of those AA and AF issues. No need to worry about 4k when barely anyone even has 4k.
Night Angel
Member
You're misrepresenting what people were saying.
On an individual basis, power can be a significant factor. So can the inclusion of a power brick or the color of the console. No one that I've read has said that power has no impact at all on the purchasing decision.
What I and many others have said, however, is that power has never been the main factor contributing to a console's overall success. Historically, the most powerful console has not sold the most.
The narrative that suddenly power doesn't matter just because Sony might be outclassed by a nebulous future product that doesn't exist yet is fucking idiotic. It's based solely on an overactive persecution complex.
4.2 tflops GPU, 2.1 GHZ Jaguar CPU, 218GB BW, 8GB GDDR5 RAM.
Great post, I agree 100%
KojiKnight
Member
I too am now imagining this. It won't happen, but it's be hilarious if we did see delays in both Neo and Scorpio to fuel this.
Xenoflare
Member
except 60fps are still not very likely for its limited bandwidth as I read on beyond3d. Keep in mind that PS4 share its bandwith with the cpu also. Most the neo can provide is cosmetic upgrade and more solid frame rate. But I am sure Mark Cerny is on this project and he'll should know what to do.
Yea, I just don't see how that's a bad thing in my opinion (not saying that you are saying that). Some people still want the same old "generation" cut off and start all over again. I don't want to do that and I don't think that's best for the gaming audience. I have 2 Xbox One controllers and a Xbox One arcade stick, when the system after Scorpio comes out...I hope I can still use those controllers. Saves me money that can be used for games.
That should be up to the developer (if we're talking PS5) to treat the game like that, not a mandate. Also, by the time the PS5 comes out, the PS4 would be lower than "medium", probably "low". Neo would most likely be a "medium" or something. That's if the developer wants to support it (which would be smart for them coming out of the gate as the userbase increase)
if it's a 40CU chip with 4 disabled for yields,mouldy they choose to have more aggressive binning to keep those enabled?
Otherwise it's surely just upclocking either to the top end of what the standard neo chassis will support, or consider a rapid redo of the chassis to provide more cooling.
Probably just a clock tweak like MS did with Xbox one though.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I know this but Patrick hasn't explicitly stated those are the specs has he? Also there is still OsirisBlack's info that Sony have and always had two specs in the works so it is all still confusing.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Well, games like BLOPS 3 run at 1080p 60 fps on PS4 already so it's not like it cant be done. I am sure its not as simple as i am making it out to be, but you have 18 extra CUs running at 900 mhz instead of 800, CPU running at 2.1 Ghz instead of 1.6 and memory bandwidth at 230 instead of 176 Gbps. Maybe they cant brute force it to run at 60 fps but there is enough horsepower in the GPU alone for devs to get creative and double the framerate.
that said, they might just take the easy route and make it prettier. after all, if sony is showing this off, showing the same game running at 60 fps wont impress a lot of people especially the casuals. they will need a prettier game to convince people to buy this thing.
RAM bandwidth is what I think it most likely to improve given their goals for the machine. Maybe a small upclock to the CPU and/or GPU as well but I think we'll see closer to 250 Gb/s bandwidth.
Megadrive not backwards compatible to master system (had to buy an adapter)
Saturn not backwards compatible to Megdrive
SNES not back wards compatible to NES
N64 not backwards compatible to SNES ( unless you brought a rare as hens teeth adapter)
Amiga 500 not backwards compatible to C64
Atari ST not backwards compatible to Atari 8bit machines such as 400/800
The idea that BC is prevalent or remasters/ports are a new thing indicate a really selective view of video game history/industry practice.
I'm really super cool playing Majora's mask on 3ds, just as I was super cool playing ICO on PS3, and as cool as having Casablanca and Blade runner on VHS, DVD and Blu ray. I love quality games/movies/books and will rebuy them sometimes based on nostalgia in different formats.
True, but I think the jaguar cores already reach its max clock speed, gpu and ram can go higher but sony seems to have a habit of chasing small form factor so i dunno if their cooling solution can handle it. Or we can have another vaccum machine again.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
It's likely only a modest overclock, but some magic pixie GDDR5X dust would be welcome.
serversurfer
Member
I think you guys are confusing yourselves with talk of backwards and forwards compatibility. There's just compatibility now. Listen to Jack, as he seems to know what he's talking about. Yes, there are hardware-specific tweaks devs will be doing and that's why we're getting one hardware configuration every three years, rather than getting several per year like on PC but apart from that, it's all the same code. You won't be porting PS5 games to PS4 any more than you port Neo games to PS4; it's literally the same game, running on the same operating system, using the same APIs, with some hardware-specific tuning.
PS5 and beyond will still be running Orbis OS just newer versions of it and PS4 and PS4.5 will both be updated to run the current OS as well. House said a given console can expect 9+ years of support, which tells us PS4 should be getting OS updates until at least 2022, and PS4.5 will be getting OS updates until at least 2025. A developer will write one game for "PlayStation," after choosing a minimum target for both OS and hardware. If a developer working on a c. 2031 game feels that getting it to run on a PS4 will compromise their vision for the game, then they'll target PS4.5 or maybe even PS6 as minspec instead. It just depends on what they're trying to accomplish, and the audience they hope to reach. All engineering is a series of compromises, after all.
Orbis OS is based on FreeBSD, which has been around for more than 20 years, and is derived directly from Unix, which has been around for more than 40. There's no need to toss everything out just because some new hardware came along. Unix really good stuff, and it's designed to grow with the times while isolating developers from hardware vagaries, which is why we're still using it four decades on.
I suspect this is also why we're seeing so many remasters for PS4. Once they get it up and running on PS4, they'll be able to keep selling that same version pretty much indefinitely. They might need to patch it every three years, or they might not.
This is also good for users, because now you can buy and play your next-gen games before you buy your next-gen hardware. When CoD launches for PS5 in 2019, you'll be able to buy it and play it on your PS4. Then when you do finally drop the coin for the PS5 maybe after a price drop the very same game now gets a next-gen makeover.
PS5 and beyond will still be running Orbis OS just newer versions of it and PS4 and PS4.5 will both be updated to run the current OS as well. House said a given console can expect 9+ years of support, which tells us PS4 should be getting OS updates until at least 2022, and PS4.5 will be getting OS updates until at least 2025. A developer will write one game for "PlayStation," after choosing a minimum target for both OS and hardware. If a developer working on a c. 2031 game feels that getting it to run on a PS4 will compromise their vision for the game, then they'll target PS4.5 or maybe even PS6 as minspec instead. It just depends on what they're trying to accomplish, and the audience they hope to reach. All engineering is a series of compromises, after all.
Orbis OS is based on FreeBSD, which has been around for more than 20 years, and is derived directly from Unix, which has been around for more than 40. There's no need to toss everything out just because some new hardware came along. Unix really good stuff, and it's designed to grow with the times while isolating developers from hardware vagaries, which is why we're still using it four decades on.
I suspect this is also why we're seeing so many remasters for PS4. Once they get it up and running on PS4, they'll be able to keep selling that same version pretty much indefinitely. They might need to patch it every three years, or they might not.
Wait, so Raven Ridge is only 35W with four Zen cores and a 12CU GPU? That sorta changes everything, doesn't it? It needs more CUs, obviously, but it seems like they have plenty of thermal overhead here.This just popped up.
So. What are the odds that Scorpio / Neo will be Raven Ridge based (custom APU of course).
What is it you like about console gaming that you fear you would lose here?
Is it this? There won't be any need to "push" the new hardware, because it's still the same ecosystem. You don't need to quickly establish a critical mass of users, because you already did that some years back. Now you just make new hardware available, and users will buy it when they decide it's time. If it takes a while for the bulk of the user base to transition to the newer hardware, no matter, because you're selling them the same software either way.
This is also good for users, because now you can buy and play your next-gen games before you buy your next-gen hardware. When CoD launches for PS5 in 2019, you'll be able to buy it and play it on your PS4. Then when you do finally drop the coin for the PS5 maybe after a price drop the very same game now gets a next-gen makeover.
That'a effectively what it is now. PS4.5 will be High settings instead. By the time PS5 drops, PS4.5 will be running the Medium PC settings, and PS4 will run Low.
1) You're looking at a response to someone who asked what would make more money. Which is why I mentioned sales for the new hardware. I was saying it's not a clear cut case of what would make more money, especially if the new system had BC.
2) The main negative point is games get held back due to FC. Do you think games on PC are taking proper advantage of the latest GPU and CPU? No, they don't, because they need to factor in the hardware that most people have, and that isn't the latest and greatest video card and cpu, it's usually something at least 2-3 gens behind if not more.
Gameplay systems cannot be designed with the higher spec in mind due to ram, bandwidth, processing limitations of the minimum that they need to support. The PC slider scale is only good for graphics, and even those graphics don't take full advantage of the hardware.
With a new console that is not FC, devs can create exclusive games that aren't limited by the old hardware, and design gameplay/tech around that.
Look at shadow of mordor, the ps3/360 ports had a shell of a nemesis system that the ps4/xbox one/pc versions had because they couldn't handle it. If PS3/360 were FC with PS4/XB1 at the time, the ps4/xb1/pc versions would've had that scaled back version of the nemesis system instead of the advanced one that they got. I haven't seen a single case of a PC game having significantly different gameplay systems when running on a lower end machine and a higher end machine. Only performance and graphics are typically the thing that are different (now I'm not saying there aren't any, but if there are, they are far from the norm).
People are already talking about diminishing returns as it is with regular console generations, an FC/iterative console system would make things a whole lot worse.
There's a reason why you don't see big leaps in graphics for PC gaming in general until a new console generation starts up. The baseline becomes those consoles due to the masses adapting them for new exclusive games that aren't available on the older systems. With FC/iterative system, the baseline would take much longer to shift up.
So yes, I think consoles going FC is not not only bad for consoles, but is also going effect PC gaming negatively as well. Slowing down progress in graphics and gameplay systems much more than it naturally would've.
I'm fine with a mid-gen refresh like Neo, sure, go ahead and offer a more powerful console in the middle of the generation that's not getting any exclusive games but is just more powerful. But for PS5, offer BC so you can still play your past console's games, but it should also have exclusive games that are not being held back by the last gen.
SimpleDesign
Member
It would be so weird if they released it with 8GB of RAM. The only way that would make sense is if they're including a separate pool of RAM for the OS to use.
What other ram solution do they need besides the one PS4 has? 8GB GDDR5 was generally overkill for PS4's GPU and CPU at the time of launch, and that's still generally fully acceptable for an iterative unit even right now. They would have to change the entire RAM bus to fit in a different configuration, which they are not doing.
THis iterative unit is exactly what it says on the tin, an upclocked, more powerful version of the same hardware.
wonderful103
Member
Listen to this man. This is where all 3 console makers are going.
biglittleps
Member
This.
I've already argued with Server on that, and i still strongly disagree that anybody thinking platform holders arbitrarily locking developers to perpetual forwards compatibility is the future is kidding themselves.
They will sooner focus all of their powers on full backwards compatibility and ecosystem compatibility. THat is what i expect
The only fact I'm aware of is that the neo is meant to prevent players from moving to pc mid generation and that PlayStation still moves in generations. These are the only official statements I'm aware of and they fit to what Sony is doing.
The neo especially doesn't roll ps forward because it doesn't improve on ram and CPU.
If in 2020 ps5 comes around and a developer choses to target PS4 neo he has done 90% of the work to support PS4 as well. See farisr's post.
Only Xbox might be on a rolling model.
MilkyJoe
Member
This is probably the last time this will ever matter, if at all, all things considered.
Due to this
Bitch Pudding
Member
We'll have to see what happens, I guess. Even if we stay in the same eco-system, there will still be major upgrades at some point, thanks to major shifts in technological development. Think of HBM2 memory vs. GDDR5, for example. The one console manufacturer being able to exploit this new possibilities first - and offer it for a decent price - will always have a clear advantage towards the followers. That said, if things continue the way they are know, I suppose Sony and MS will take turns in being the one with the most powerful hardware.
MilkyJoe
Member
I'm thinking more along the lines of a games library and expensive peripherals like VR headsets and such. There will be a boat load of people that have both, but to most people that only have the time or money for one, then they will most likely choose a side and stay there.
docyoe
Member
Agreed.
wapplew
Member
The problem might be slow adoption rate.
Yes, you don't need to have fast install base because your system include the install base of 2-3 hardware configurations.
But that means you will have to stay "cross gen" phase longer. ( yes, scale like PC game is still cross gen to me)
In a normal console generation, thanks to clean break, devs can adapt new tech faster, console manufacture will take more risk on new tech without worry about compabilidy.
Thats the one of the appeal of console for me.
MilkyJoe
Member
The "cross gen" of the 1.0 version will last until the 2.0 console comes out, and the 1.5 console will last until the 2.5 comes out etc... That's the most likely scenario.
The whole reason for this is it cuts down the risk. I'm not to sure where the argument for new tech comes in? PS5 and X2 are not going ot have holodeck technology or something. It's just prettier games, better AI etc... which is all scalable.
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