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[boneyjangles]

I'd say the power of the Xbox One and the PS4 was similar enough that it made next to no differnce. The gap between the two was way closer than it was in the previous generation. PS3 was at bigger disadvatage vs the 360 to me, I remember a few of my favourite titles looking noticably worse on PS3, missing foilage or building detail. When I look at my friend playing Battlefield 4 on his Xbone, it's pretty much the same shit, maybe a slightly lower res, but I would struggle to notice. Both consoles are moderate power, low risk, safe, balanced, cheap-ish, and setup for making a profit from as close to day 1 as possible.

But did the slight power advantage, even if it doesn't translate to much on screen, account for the difference in sales? Maybe not that much.

I knew I wanted a PS4 over an Xbox One when I saw that E3 presentation spearheaded by Don Mattrick. Forcus on TV, TV guides, Halo TV series, limited exclusives, but at least the price was expensive, right? Sony was focusing on gaming, Microsoft were lost in the casual world after some Kinect success the previous generation.

But even if you didn't see the conference (again, I doubt most did), and the power difference doesn't seem an issue, you have a much bigger, uglier, more expensive, boxy looking console that comes with a huge external power brick, vs a sleek slim console with an internal power brick for less money. And that's before we get into nitty gritty about Memory architecture, reselling games.

MS just fucked up in so many small ways, it was cumulatively terrible in comparison, while not being objectively -that- bad. Whereas Sony generally got everything right, while not being objectively -that- good!

As for Scorpio VS Neo? Depends on the price/power ratio. Hope Sony aren't too underpowered whatever happens, becuase I'm not switching and to be honest, I'm ready to ditch my PC finally.

 

[Polk]

I have no problem for a new generation without BC and FC.
I think BC is overrated, I'm all for lose everything if that's the price for exclusives for new hardware.

We are 3 years into this generation (I'll exclude WiiU) and we still getting remasters/ports od last gen titles because lack of BC.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

We are 3 years into this generation (I'll exclude WiiU) and we still getting remasters/ports od last gen titles because lack of BC.

We are getting them because they are cheap to make and people want them .
Even if we had BC we would still get remasters.

 

[FStubbs]

Nearly every generation we've had since the NES has had the market leader not being at the top of the pile in terms of resolution and graphics. Nes over Master system, PS1 over N64, PS2 over GC/DC/Xbox, Wii over 360 and PS3. The sole exception was the SNES/Genesis- and even that one had the Genesis beating the SNES head to head every year in the US until sega pulled support for it far earlier than Nintendo did to focus on the Saturn. Core gamers care about graphics quite a bit and are very vocal about it, but the mass market consumers that buy FIFA/Madden every year and little else seem to place priorities on other things besides that.

Anecdotally I talked to a lot of people who swore the PS2 was more powerful than the GameCube and Xbox. The games themselves count for a lot in public perception of power.

 

[wapplew]

We are 3 years into this generation (I'll exclude WiiU) and we still getting remasters/ports od last gen titles because lack of BC.

I prefer that over every single games on my new console are "remastered" games of my old console.

 

[Synth]

The PS2 library was crazy for the first year .
Also tekken was huge back in the day , it was much bigger than SC .
Sony also show off GT before the system was even out .
I call the first year of a system early unless you only talk about the first few months .

Tekken as a whole? Yes. Tekken Tag Tournament? Nah.

Soul Calibur on DC was obviously handicapped, by nature of being on the DC (still sold over a million on a sub 9 million lifetime console though), but Soul Calibur 2 for example showed how much appeal the series had (until Soul Calibur 3 shat the bed).

But yes, I am mostly talking about the first few months, because the console was still flying off the shelves before the heavy-hitters arrived.. and it had halted the Dreamcast long before it even hit the shelves. It wasn't simply because it was a new PlayStation, the phrase "I'm waiting for the PS2" increased exponentially when this happened:

I remember even Sega fansites and publications were shitting themselves over it.

 

[family_guy]

I'd say the power of the Xbox One and the PS4 was similar enough that it made next to no differnce. The gap between the two was way closer than it was in the previous generation. PS3 was at bigger disadvatage vs the 360 to me, I remember a few of my favourite titles looking noticably worse on PS3, missing foilage or building detail. When I look at my friend playing Battlefield 4 on his Xbone, it's pretty much the same shit, maybe a slightly lower res, but I would struggle to notice. Both consoles are moderate power, low risk, safe, balanced, cheap-ish, and setup for making a profit from as close to day 1 as possible.

PS3 wasn't really behind 360 in power, it was just much harder to program for. The differences in resolution were closer where sub-720p to 720p in Call of Duty last gen isnt as different as say 720p to 900p like we have with Battlefield 4.

 

[Milly Osworth]

Sony doesn't need to upgrade the specs.

Just announce PS5 a few months before Scorpio comes out.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Sony doesn't need to upgrade the specs.

Just announce PS5 a few months before Scorpio comes out.

Announcing a PS5 in July 2017 after a Neo comes out in Q4 2016... That would go down a treat.

 

[Jacksinthe]

I have no problem for a new generation without BC and FC.
I think BC is overrated, I'm all for lose everything if that's the price for exclusives for new hardware.

Why should I care about support on my old console when I buy a new one?
Wouldn't you prefer every game on your new console doesn't get compromise by your old console?

FC for a single rolling iteration is important to not force the consumer to upgrade every 3 years. That would absolutely not fly in the market being forced to purchase new hardware constantly.

With a rolling iteration:

Ps4, ps4k
Ps4k, ps5
Ps5, ps5k
Ps5k, ps6
Etc

You can allow people to upgrade when they feel they need to for a new gen or between them. It's important for us developers, as well. I noted earlier stairs are far easier to climb than sheer rock faces when it comes to changing tools. Having smaller steps between these changes let's us develop more games, more stable, that take advantage of hardware quicker and reduce R&D costs.

It's a win for everyone - those who want to upgrade earlier, those who want to keep their machines for longer and developers who like spending less money every 6 years.

I don't see how this is confusing. You're going to get better optimized games and less downtime from devs and if you don't want to upgrade, the rolling single FC unit will take care of that.

Games are expensive. Even the small ones. The less work that needs to be done to bridge hardware gaps the more the focus can be put on the game, itself.

 

[tapedeck]

Sony doesn't need to upgrade the specs.

Just announce PS5 a few months before Scorpio comes out.

Joke post? I really can't tell anymore.

 

[Colbert]

These are 28nm parts. The Neo/Scorpio will be 16nm FF+.
e: They will be custom using whatever parts AMD offers and the console makers wish to buy, not based on available SoCs

You must have overseen that the node processes are part of the slide. The most right block clearly says: 14nm FinFET. You may have been confused by the Xbox One S node process compared to AMDs product line node process which can be different because the Xbox One S is a semi-custom design.

 

[Zedox]

Rolling generations make way more sense (for majority of people) than straight up cutting people off. And it's basically what Sony and Microsoft are doing (leaving PR aside).

 

[Theonik]

You must have overseen that the node processes are part of the slide. The most right block clearly says: 14nm FinFET. You may have been confused by the Xbox One S node process compared to AMDs product line node process which can be different because the Xbox One S is a semi-custom design.

I should have said 'probably' for accuracy. As of now we are not 100% sure what the X1S is using unless I missed a teardown, package shots. That being said, I'm well aware of this point. What I was trying to point out is that AMD's roadmap for SoCs they intend to sell doesn't correspond with their semi-custom business, so the data here doesn't really tell you much.

 

[leeh]

They are actually.

It doesn't really matter that much these days though because very few people even attempt games which would conceptually (that is, with minimal graphics) require more performance than a half-decent PC provides.

With this in mind then, we'll see games being held back by the X1 for the Scorpio in terms of new gameplay/engine features but then if it weren't held back, you'd be essentially choking yourself by only catering to a subset of the market who has hardware to play these games?

If you keep two consoles in-life, then you've got the lowest common specification which aligns with low-end PC's (X1). Then when Scorpio II comes out and the X1 becomes out-of-life, then the Scorpio will align with low-end PC's at that time. You can then naturally expand capability what depends on hardware for a natural evolution of games in general without shrinking your potential user base.

 

[00ich]

Rolling generations make way more sense (for majority of people) than straight up cutting people off. And it's basically what Sony and Microsoft are doing (leaving PR aside).

Calling Neo a half generation step makes no sense. There's no progress on the CPU side which was already quite weak 3 years ago.
The GPU upgrade is also hardly worthy of the title "half-generation".
Neo is PS4k and maybe PS4 slim at the same time.

 

[00ich]

With this in mind then, we'll see games being held back by the X1 for the Scorpio in terms of new gameplay/engine features but then if it weren't held back, you'd be essentially choking yourself by only catering to a subset of the market who has hardware to play these games?

If you keep two consoles in-life, then you've got the lowest common specification which aligns with low-end PC's (X1). Then when Scorpio II comes out and the X1 becomes out-of-life, then the Scorpio will align with low-end PC's at that time. You can then naturally expand capability what depends on hardware for a natural evolution of games in general without shrinking your potential user base.

Always assuming that people upgrade their consoles without great incentive to do so.

 

[Three]

but the XB1S is not being sold as any kind of XB1.5. Any performance differences between it and the original console are effectively invisible, and the average person will never even know they are there.

This is where I disagree when they are advertising its 4k capability, UHD, and HDR those things aren't invisible even if we ignore the performance increase highlighted by DF. Those same selling points would apply to the PS4 Slim except you would also get 4K games with checker-board rendering.

 

[MilkyJoe]

This

This is where I disagree when they are advertising its 4k capability, UHD, and HDR those things aren't invisible even if we ignore the performance increase highlighted by DF. Those same selling points would apply to the PS4 Slim except you would also get 4K games with checker-board rendering.

and this

I've actually mentioned a similar strategy in a different thread. How exactly would they be getting screwed buying a $399 4.2Tflop PS4 slim?
If anything they would be getting a bargain.

You don't seem to be too fussed in the One S threads about a significantly less powerful intermediary console at the same price that's also getting replaced 18 months from now.

Tell us you are not quite understanding what is going on here.

An Xbox One S to Xbox One is what this

Is to this

Spoiler

Except the Kinect situation is reversed - thank god....

 

[Glendemonium]

Why don't Sony just use the manpower to boost PSN security? Love some two way verification.

Suppose having far more consoles sold compared to XONE they see no reason to?

 

[Mexen]

How far into the production cycle is the Neo in for Sony to make seemingly quick draw changes about its specs?

Spoiler

"Hey, boss. We have it on good authority that the NX can shoot a laser beam."

"Hm, I see. Fine, let's make it so that the Neo can drive your car."

"But, sir-"

"Make the call."

 

[DeepEnigma]

Phil Spencer came out & said they looked at what was needed for 4K & that's why they waited for 2017 so that they can have a console that will be able to give them 4K & the Neo papers talk about using checkerboard rendering & other rendering tech for getting ~ 4K render output.

Why am I being quoted? lol

 

[Papacheeks]

No.

For the industry to survive we need better tool timeframe where tools don't change drastically every 6 years and instead make small movements every 3.

Shifting tools is a huge thorn that costs devs a lot of money. With iterations of hardware more frequently we will be able to make these shifts in smaller increments with fewer headaches and the end user can simply skip an iteration and wait so long as FC keeps a 1 console spread. You won't be forced to upgrade.

So nothing changes for you if you don't want it to but it will help us devs make smoother and shorter transitions. The only way it impacts you is if you believe it does. You aren't forced to upgrade.

I'd rather have an industry move forward in smaller steps than fumble trying to climb a new mountain. Stairs are much easier than sheer faces of rock to ascend.

If they stay x86 among stay with AMD with the next generational consoles you wont have to rework your engines, and start over tool wise.

 

[Patrick Klepek]

If anything changed, keep your expectations in check.

 

[MikeHaggar]

the rumors for scorpio hit back in may and were spot-on, so i'm willing to bet sony knew well before that what microsoft were up to. which means they've realistically had since beginning of may to tweak the specs of the box. i would think that's enough time to probably increase the system power and get closer to scorpio's 6tf number. i'm also thinking them not revealing the system at e3 was due to the fact that they were in the process of tweaking specs. i'll be surprised if the final spec is at the 4.2tf number...

 

[Renekton]

If anything changed, keep your expectations in check.

Okay done.

 

[Zedox]

Calling Neo a half generation step makes no sense. There's no progress on the CPU side which was already quite weak 3 years ago.
The GPU upgrade is also hardly worthy of the title "half-generation".
Neo is PS4k and maybe PS4 slim at the same time.

I didn't call Neo a half generation. I said rolling generations make sense and that's what Sony and MS are doing.

 

[farisr]

I think BC is a given at this point .
It's FC that might separate MS and Sony .
Hoping PS5 is clean break from PS4 with the usual cross gen for a year or 2 .

Yeah, really hoping Sony ends up doing BC but not FC with PS5. All this talk about "Sony is undoubtedly going to be doing FC like MS is with all their future consoles" just sounds like "SonyToo" all over again. Really hoping Sony proves them wrong once again.

If they go full FC, that's when I stop being an early adopter and go heavy into PC gaming (the reason I don't right now, is because I prefer console gaming, but that move will be enough to make me switch). Wait a few years to pick up a console on the cheap and play through the exclusives.

 

[JaggedSac]

If anything changed, keep your expectations in check.

What's the story behind that Tim Burton tag?

 

[MilkyJoe]

Yeah, really hoping Sony ends up doing BC but not FC with PS5. All this talk about "Sony is undoubtedly going to be doing FC like MS is with all their future consoles" just sounds like "SonyToo" all over again. Really hoping Sony proves them wrong once again.

If they go full FC, that's when I stop being an early adopter and go heavy into PC gaming (the reason I don't right now, is because I prefer console gaming, but that move will be enough to make me switch). Wait a few years to pick up a console on the cheap and play through the exclusives.

Better start saving.

FC or hard reset; which makes the most money and provides the least risk?

 

[Orca]

Why would a game get compromised if you had end of life's for the previous consoles which are too old? Are PC's impacted by lower-end PC's or something? I don't get this view...

Why do you think Valve does the hardware survey? They've always made sure older machines can run their games.

 

[Jacksinthe]

If they stay x86 among stay with AMD with the next generational consoles you wont have to rework your engines, and start over tool wise.

They won't be using like for like hardware with bigger numbers. Consoles will still use specialized hardware and APIs - those require reworks and the longer the hardware stays, the greater the changes are over time. It still matters.

 

[Izuna]

Good, let the arms race begin

 

[Patrick Klepek]

What's the story behind that Tim Burton tag?

I used to be a mod here, long long long ago. We're talking more than 10 years. I used to be obsessed with Tim Burton. You know, back when he made good movies.

 

[RetroPlayer]

I presume using off the shelf architecture will make game development cheaper and will also make the actual console's cheaper to manufacture too.

Never understood why Sony, Sega, Nintendo etc went for bespoke hardware that cost a fortune to manufacture and was difficult to code for.

Look at the PS3. Why did Sony think that the Core was a good idea?

I like the fact that it now looks like one console will have the ability to play all games released for that system from now on.

 

[JaggedSac]

I used to be a mod here, long long long ago. We're talking more than 10 years. I used to be obsessed with Tim Burton. You know, back when he made good movies.

Oh, awesome, lol. Also, keep up the good games journo work dude.

 

[farisr]

Better start saving.

FC or hard reset; which makes the most money and provides the least risk?

Saving for what? I already have a good pc and regularly keep my pc upgraded due to being into heavy media editing. The switch won't have any impact on my finances nor will I need to save up.

And the least risk/makes more money thing isn't as clear cut as you are trying to make it seem.

Also, who said anything about a hard reset? I mentioned BC needing to be there. That is not a hard reset.

If you want to launch a new product when sales of the old one are dying down, it makes sense to make the new one more appealing and differentiate it from the old one as much as possible. A new console with BC (that'll still support games that may only be made for the older console) but with exclusive games that are not held back by the older console is going to do better and more appealing to people than a console that is being held back/has no exclusives.

For devs too scared to put stuff out on the new console, they can still make games for the old one, and the people who only own the new console are still potential buyers.

As I said, most of the posts regarding "Sony definitely going for FC" are sounding like SonyToo all over again to me. People were saying the same thing, "It makes more business and financial sense for Sony to have similar policies to MS so they are definitely going to do it. This is the way that gaming is headed guys, don't be foolish."

 

[platocplx]

I presume using off the shelf architecture will make game development cheaper and will also make the actual console's cheaper to manufacture too.

Never understood why Sony, Sega, Nintendo etc went for bespoke hardware that cost a fortune to manufacture and was difficult to code for.

Look at the PS3. Why did Sony think that the Core was a good idea?

I like the fact that it now looks like one console will have the ability to play all games released for that system from now on.

They wanted to have their customized hardware as a key differentiator . not that hard to understand. Now they are looking more into what services they can offer and the platform and not worrying so much to the box which now is the right approach.

 

[onQ123]

I'm sorry but if you skip back to here in 2013/2014 it's all people were saying. Why the complete 180?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=569241&page=7

 

[leeh]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=569241&page=7

So, then it was power with a mix of other variables, and now power has nothing to do with it?

Just to note, I wasn't specifically referring to you, more so the general attitude on here.

 

[wapplew]

I didn't call Neo a half generation. I said rolling generations make sense and that's what Sony and MS are doing.

Why do you keep saying that's what Sony and MS are doing like its a fact? We know nothing about their future plan beside Spencer hinted with beyond genration marketing line.
As far as we know, they all belong to their generation "family". Sony have said many time Neo share the same life cycle with PS4.
Hell, I'm not even sure MS is 100% "rolling generation". We have zero idea these premium console will do, they could be a huge failure.
When Sony market PS5 as next generation with some generation leap exclusives, I bet MS will market Scorpio 2 as next generation too.
Because enhance version of your enhance console feel a lot less exciting than next gen.

 

[farisr]

So, then it was power with a mix of other variables, and now power has nothing to do with it?

Just to note, I wasn't specifically referring to you, more so the general attitude on here.

You're making statements that you are not backing up. I don't see this general setiment of "power has nothing to do with it" Most posts I'm seeing are taking into account the overall situation. And in the posts that are talking about being more powerful not meaning much at this point, they're in responses to posts that are claiming that the ps4 was only successful because it was powerful, once again saying so because the ps4's success was a mix of factor rather than just being more powerful. And most of those factors aren't there for MS with the scorpio, unless they decide to take a huge loss per unit sold and sell the Scorpio for less than the Neo (the goodwill factor they really can't do anything about to change immediately that's a gradual thing, they're in a much better state than they were a few years ago, but it isn't even close to how much goodwill Sony had during the ps4 launch).

 

[Papacheeks]

They won't be using like for like hardware with bigger numbers. Consoles will still use specialized hardware and APIs - those require reworks and the longer the hardware stays, the greater the changes are over time. It still matters.

So if they went with zen, HBM2 controller which uses DDR4 combined with GDDR5, and the api they have been using that works across so far all of their shown chipsets with some modification depending on chipset, your saying you would have to rewrite from scratch on your engine, and tools?

 

[onQ123]

Why am I being quoted? lol

I forgot to respond to your post I was going to post about AMD multi teraflop APUs coming

 

[Munki]

Sorry guys, not going to read through the whole thread. But what is the expected/if any bump in power?

 

[farisr]

Sorry guys, not going to read through the whole thread. But what is the expected/if any bump in power?

It's not really expected. But if there are any changes it'll be minor. Don't expect much.

 

[onQ123]

So, then it was power with a mix of other variables, and now power has nothing to do with it?

Just to note, I wasn't specifically referring to you, more so the general attitude on here.

Take a look at the post you quoted in the 1st place

Since when? It's always came down to software , price , controller , marketing & hardware

it just so happens that sometimes they was able to market the power of the console but it has never sold it's self.


If power is their plan for selling these new consoles they are dead in the water but luckily they have 4K to use as a marking tool .

 

[Collateral22]

Sorry guys, not going to read through the whole thread. But what is the expected/if any bump in power?

Only going off older threads but I think the two models Sony was contemplating was 4.2TF (current leaked) and one over 5TF (5.5TF?) but that would be a pricing issue as it would be a lot for Q4 2016.

 

[Colbert]

I should have said 'probably' for accuracy. As of now we are not 100% sure what the X1S is using unless I missed a teardown, package shots. That being said, I'm well aware of this point. What I was trying to point out is that AMD's roadmap for SoCs they intend to sell doesn't correspond with their semi-custom business, so the data here doesn't really tell you much.

You missed indeed the interview of Albert Penello on Eurogamer where he stated that the SOC on the Xbox One S is produced in 16nm FinFET.

Spoiler

Btw you must have lived under a rock to miss that

Link: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-inside-xbox-one-s-tech-interview

Albert Penello: Correct! The SoC in the Xbox One S is designed in the 16nm Fin FET process, which results in a die that is 240mm2; 33 per cent smaller and consumes less power than the 28nm SoC in the original Xbox One.

 

[Synth]

This is where I disagree when they are advertising its 4k capability, UHD, and HDR those things aren't invisible even if we ignore the performance increase highlighted by DF. Those same selling points would apply to the PS4 Slim except you would also get 4K games with checker-board rendering.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here then I guess. As I said before revisions have had somewhat similar situations before, with the 360 gaining a HDMI port and 1080p output for example. To take it further, if there were let's say a revision of the 360 with a HD-DVD or BluRay drive for movie playback, this still wouldn't make it a similar case to the Neo.

The 4k capability of the XB1S will be invisible to most people, as it'll mostly just be doing what their TV would do to the image anyway. The HDR output is the only real differentiator when it comes to games. The Neo (or potential PS4 Slim as we're currently calling it) is literally more than twice as powerful as the previous revision... there's been nothing like that happen to a console console mid-generation, unless we were to start calling in something like the Sega Multimega (and even that falls wildly short of the comparison, as it didn't have the power of a 32X in it). Whereas, regardless of which version of a 360 or PS3 you had, it'd simply get referred to as a 360 or PS3 (and so would an XB1S), neither the Neo or Scorpio are going to be classed the same way. They will be seen as legitimately different machines buy everyone, whether you follow DF or not.