//DEVIL//
Member
well.. here is hope for 2016
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PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)
- Thread starter OsirisBlack
- Start date
well.. here is hope for 2016
Caayn
Member
I know, at first I tried to talk sense into some but now I just ignore those "4K totally real" posts all together.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
The last few pages have been really bizarre, we are having freak-outs over things that have been at least partially debunked over the last few months.
Why are you conflating resolution with FPS. You say "some people think this will play in 4K lol" when there are absolutely games that will do that, and then you say "will be lucky if 1080p 60fps is achieved" as if 60fps and 1080p easier to implement?
Games that have a variable 60 are more likely to stick to 60 with higher IQ and graphical presets. But games generally will be a stabler version of the PS4 FPS with much higher res or IQ.
They're not going to go in just before the holidays and announce to the world that something better is coming along just after the holidays. I'm surprised people still doubt a 2016 release. lol
30yearsofhurt
Member
Probably still feeling burnt by the Zelda/NX delay.
I agree, and I think next gen consoles will arrive Holiday 2020, right around the next U.S. presidential election.
Same here. Better fidelity / higher graphical settings, better framerates, less visual sacrifices for PSVR games.
Futurematic
Member
AAA refers to budget, not graphics.
serversurfer
Member
If you read the quote, he never actually says they'll do an "available now"-type announcement. What's he's really saying is, "I'm surprised they'd make a big announcement 15 months before they were ready to launch when people were just criticizing us for unpreparedness simply because we announced PS4 without showing the finalized case. But such criticisms were prolly just cuz Apple rather than being actual Talking Points, amirite…"
The Last Wizard
Member
Yea this is true, it'd kill holiday sales for the vanilla PS4.
Upscaling doesn't add any new information.AmyS said:
Reconstruction does (as a general rule).
The shorthand you were responding to was misleading anyhow - Checkerboard with NO reconstruction step is just an image missing 50% or more pixel quads - and thus can't be upscaled either.
Swass
Member
Coupled with the mandatory Neo mode for games released October and beyond.. I don't know how many more signs people need that this is coming this year.
serversurfer
Member
Why would Neo not being available do a better job of killing PS4 sales than having it available? =/
The poster you quoted is actually agreeing with a post saying that doing an announce event right now for something releasing after holidays would kill vanilla ps4 sales. Seems you misread it.
Sony doesn't care which member of the PS4 family you buy, but they'd rather you bought some member of the family this holiday season instead of waiting. Most consumers are still unaware of Neo, so once announced it would be best if it were available sooner rather than later.
I fully expect an October ship date now That the unveiling is imminent. It may even have been moved up from November to reduce the amount of time the Xbox One S has as the sole console that plays UHD media, which would probably mean fewer units stockpiled and possible shortages at launch
serversurfer
Member
But making Neo available for the holidays would somehow avoid killing PS4 sales? Is that the argument? That makes no sense to me.
Are people assuming the market will just switch en masse to Neo once it does become known? Sony seem to want tiering
Well, I still think they'll have a slim PS4; it makes little sense to not. They may launch Neo this holiday if the tech they want is ready, but I still think it's better to let PS4+PSVR stand on its own for a bit, because messaging.
Regardless, my real point is that it seems like a lot of people are just hearing what they want, rather than what Sony are actually saying. /shrug
The Neo is a member of the PS4 family. It counts as a PS4 sale by any reasonable measure.
No, but some people will wait to see what early adopters and reviewers say about the Neo before committing one way or another. The last thing you want to do as a vendor is give your customer a reason to delay their purchase.
It's possible, but there haven't been any leaks at all suggesting that this is the case. So far it just seems like wishful thinking, which is entertaining in the context of your last statement:
Sony hasn't really said anything at all, except to developers. What they told developers is to hurry up and meet a specific deadline in the build-up to the holiday season when they've got a lot of other work on their plate. Sure, some of that is trying to build up a library but they could just as well have required Neo patches by the end of the year for titles coming out starting September / October and have the same net effect if the console was due for release next year.
It seems clear they're trying to ensure a slate of launch titles for the Neo when it launches this Fall.
thelastword
Banned
So what's stopping Sony from releasing a vanilla slim with a UHD drive this holiday? At the end of the day, media is still secondary to games on a Sony console. I don't think PS4 will sell less consoles over the Xbox One S because it doesn't have UHD. There was a time when the XBOX1 was the only console that offered cable service straight to your box (that may very well still be the case), it was also the only console with kinnect features and snap, yet that had no impact on where gamers preferred to play.
The other thing about UHD, is that it's still early days, this holiday is not going to change that. When you have more 4k capable game machines on the market, I think you will see a bigger boost to UHD media because folk willl have 4k tv's playing their games. So it would be, hey "I'm enjoying these 4k games" let me get a few UHD blurays to test it out. If NEO does not launch this year and Sony offers no UHD solution for the holidays, I very much doubt anyone would go buy an Xbox One S, as I'm pretty sure the majority of console gamers are on 1080p sets. At this point, if UHD media is such a sway, you might as well buy a standalone UHD player, because you definitely won't be pushing anything close to 4k on the XB1 in games (unless you're Aaron Greenberg
I think you will get more persons buying 4k sets for games rather than media, so persons will buy 4k tv's and get ready for NEO and Scorpio (even if most games are not native, it will be close) and therefore justified. There's no way XB1S entices anyone to get a 4k tv to play media this holiday, especially when the thing can barely do 900p at 30fps in games....
The Last Wizard
Member
If neo comes out people have no reason to hold off on a purchase of a PS4 in hopes of a new one coming after the holidays.
Marty Chinn
Member
The simple thing is, it causes people to wait. Waiting allows opportunity to change their mind, buy the competition, or no longer be in the market for one.
They are not hearing what you want them to hear because you keep using Osiris as the source of what Sony is saying...... all we know for sure is that devkits went out and games need to be neo ready starting October. It doesn't make any sense for them to force devs to spend extra resources or delay games if neo mode is not needed for the holidays.
That's certainly a possibility, but we have no evidence that it's happening. if it wasn't already in the pipeline before E3 then there's zero chance it suddenly got pulled together in the last few months. The strategy would have been laid out years in advance, and either it includes a slim redesign this year with UHD or it doesn't and Neo is the full UHD story. We'all find out in just a few weeks.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
What are the chances we'll get a teaser trailer tomorrow/next 24 hours? IIRC we got one three weeks before the PS4 reveal.
LordOfChaos
Member
This is relevant to the power discussion. GCN 4 is up to 40% more efficient per core per clock than GCN 1, so with the PS4 being GCN 1.1-ish we'll see more than the direct clock and core count scaling for performance. Also much better memory compression.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1263498&highlight=
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1263498&highlight=
People are so caught up on the flop number that they are going to be lost & confused when PS4 Neo is able to do 4K games.
That means that their 218GB/s bandwidth specs will be enough to feed more of the GPU than we thought.
Good point. I've seen this mentioned in threads before and it's always good to keep it in mind.
DF has mentioned the memory compression before. I still think 218 is a bit on the low side for their goals though, especially since the memory pool is still shared.
If they can get it up around 250gb/s I will be very pleased. Bandwidth is the only substantial improvement I think we'll see from the leaked specs.
You'll take your September 7th and you will enjoy it!!!
LordOfChaos
Member
I'm the one who made that thread and I'll still be surprised if it's native 4K, lol. The internal docks suggested something between 1080P and 4K (I think around 2560x1440?) and then using checkerboard rendering to create a 4K frame buffer to pass to the TV. 4K output yes, but not native 4K rendering.
Polaris already has the new memory compression and more efficient cores, but the 480 would be hard pressed to stretch to 4K native on AAA games. Shit, a GTX 1080 would feel uncomfortable at it, so I think even the Scorpio is getting ahead of itself with all the 4K branding "uncompressed pixels" crap.
This though, yeah. I thought the 20% higher memory bandwidth was rather odd for over twice the GPU execution power, but given that Polaris seems to compress memory 40-50% better, stacking that with the bandwidth increase, you get much much closer to scaling with the GPU.
218 is fine because what the CPU will be using is still capped to 20GB, the same as PS4. The OG PS4 CPU could not utilize all that bandwidth either just based on its specs, so upclocking the CPU may finally give the 20/GBs some purpose. The rest will be left to the GPU.
There was that issue a while back with the available bandwidth dropping dramatically when the CPU was using over a certain amount. Don't know if that's been sorted yet.
The doc talk about 1440P not looking much different from 1080P & that they would rather devs use more efficient rendering techniques like checkerboard rendering to get closer to 4K.
Checkerboard rendering is still rendering , if checkerboard rendering is use to render at 4K it is the resolution.
The cool thing is that they're actually offering assistance to devs that are having trouble hitting at least 1800p using the method. They must be pretty confident in it's potential.
Proelite
Member
Misleading since the GCN1.1 and GCN1.0 tests are bandwidth bottlenecked since they don't have memory compression. Either the tests need to half the CU and Rops or boost the bandwidth available to GCN1.1 tests to 300GB/s. Only the former is technically possible.
LordOfChaos
Member
A bottleneck existed in the old chips, it was removed in the new ones and they do 40% better for the same core count and clock speed.
How is this misleading?
It's like the Fermi cards, they got memory capacity limited. If performance is X in games, you could say "no no, test only games where they won't be capacity bound"...But that makes no sense. It's the performance inherent to them, no matter where the bottleneck came from.
It's the output resolution. The internal load is an integer scale of it plus MSAA to smooth it over, and it can look good but not as sharp as native.
Rainbow Six did this, you should read through this:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-rainbow-six-siege-face-off
"So, at 1080p, we're technically seeing 960x540 with 2x MSAA."
Saying checkerboard rending is still rendering is like saying 1080i is still 1080p. You only render every other line each time, so no.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I'm taking it!
I'm sure Sony will do something to build hype before the 7th, though. I even got a email about the PS4 reveal event.
Nope, that's marketing.
I agree.
~250 GB/sec and higher clocked Jaguar CPU: 2.4 GHz (instead of 2.1 GHz).
The GPU spec: 36 CUs / 911 MHz / 4.2 TFLOPs should stay as-is, no reason to increase it. Don't bother trying to close the gap with Scorpio coming out a year later.
It's critical for Neo to not be more than $400. The 500 GB OG PS4 needs to be $250, in light of increasing OG XB1 sales and now Xbox One S.
Athreous
Member
Yeah, 2.4GHz CPU is the highest I could see that going if it changes at all.
We are not going to see $250 for PS4 in a while and it doesn't need that price.
Proelite
Member
Maybe not the test.
But the following inference.
"GCN 4 is up to 40% more efficient per core per clock than GCN 1"
is wrong. It's only 40% more efficient in cases where GCN1 card has only 60% of the bandwidth it needs.
Neo's gpu won't perform like a 5.9 teraflop GCN 1 card if the latter was not bandwidth bottlenecked.
I'm a PS4 owner and I'm looking forward to the PS4k.
LordOfChaos
Member
I didn't say the bottom part, I did say it would perform better than a direct scale of the core count and clock speed. Given that the PS4s memory bandwidth is about the 7850s plus the 20GB/s CPU bandwidth, I don't think this is a terribly assumptive thing to say about the Neo vs the PS4.
Then, a $300 PS4 and $400 PS4K / Neo. I was only trying to let Neo seem to have more of a premium price without increasing its price, by cutting OG PS4.
Sony also has to sell PSVR, so I don't think PS4K can be more than $400. If it's $500, I could see a lot of people going 'forget it, I'll wait for Scorpio'.
Proelite
Member
I would eat my hat if Neo benchmarks better than an upclocked 280x at 4.2 teraflops using games with Vulkan.
I think whatever kind of performance you see in games with upclocked 280x (DX 12, Vulkan) is what you will see with NEO.