Support NeoGAF

[atpbx]

It's a completely different landscape to when they launched blu Ray drives in the PS3.
The huge and vast majority of their customers have no access to HDR/UHD TVs at this time, next generation which to be fair is next year/ year after kind of time (when Scorpio launches) will give us a better idea what the uptake is around the world.

 

[Glix]

I get why people are annoyed/dissapointed, certainly.

That being said, I stopped buying movies on physical media when we went from DVD to BluRay. I'm tired of buying the same things over and over lol.

 

[Quotient]

People really got to stop using BOM or Bill Of Material for the actual final price of product. Have to factor in shipment of the parts to be put together, labor for putting together, and cost of inspections. Using BOM to say a certain or any company is cheap is not painting the whole picture in manufacturing.

Here's a simple example the BOM for making certain parts from plastic lets say a generic material is from ABS Lustran (which is what a certain company I know of use) is roughly a few cents per pound. 1 part ways less than a pound after machine make the part. so is that part still only should be a few cents because thats what the BOM says. Factor in machine time, labor time, pressure drying material time, qaulity assurance, and many more and that BOM that was a few cents per pound is now 5 to 10 dollars and thats just for one piece. This is not factoring everything else.

Basically using BOM to gauge a price of a part to go into another part is not very good. People dont work for free, machines need power to run, quality personal dont work for free and these are the people that are no factor into the BOM. Usually if its an already made part thats need to be assemble. The cost of the parts goes up 50 to 100 pct before leaving manufacturing. At the end consumer the price goes up another 50 to 100 pct easily so that retailers and everyone in between get there cut.

Very well said. BOM also doesn't typically include R&D, e.g. Sony spent 100's of millions in R&D on the Cell which won't be reflected in the component cost breakdown done by a 3rd party.

 

[JudgeN]

People really got to stop using BOM or Bill Of Material for the actual final price of product. Have to factor in shipment of the parts to be put together, labor for putting together, and cost of inspections. Using BOM to say a certain or any company is cheap is not painting the whole picture in manufacturing.

Here's a simple example the BOM for making certain parts from plastic lets say a generic material is from ABS Lustran (which is what a certain company I know of use) is roughly a few cents per pound. 1 part ways less than a pound after machine make the part. so is that part still only should be a few cents because thats what the BOM says. Factor in machine time, labor time, pressure drying material time, qaulity assurance, and many more and that BOM that was a few cents per pound is now 5 to 10 dollars and thats just for one piece. This is not factoring everything else.

Basically using BOM to gauge a price of a part to go into another part is not very good. People dont work for free, machines need power to run, quality personal dont work for free and these are the people that are no factor into the BOM. Usually if its an already made part thats need to be assemble. The cost of the parts goes up 50 to 100 pct before leaving manufacturing. At the end consumer the price goes up another 50 to 100 pct easily so that retailers and everyone in between get there cut.

Great post, lets make sure people read it

 

[Decado]

This really sucks. UHD player is the main feature I was anticipating and would have seen me jump on board along with a 4k TV.

As a pc gamer with a big backlog the few ps4 exclusives simply isn't enough at this point.

 

[JadedWriter]

During the Ken Kutaragi era they didn't care about saving $15.

 

[NYR]

Should bump the price up to $415 then.

Good thing you can just tape on extra parts like that, right? Talk about over-simplifying.

 

[Livingskeletons]

Good thing you can just tape on extra parts like that, right? Talk about over-simplifying.

It was a joke.

Thanks for the visual though lol.

Edit:

It's been done before though. No tape necessary.

 

[Bungie]

Shame.

 

[Marty Chinn]

The huge and vast majority of their customers have no access to HDR/UHD TVs at this time, next generation which to be fair is next year/ year after kind of time (when Scorpio launches) will give us a better idea what the uptake is around the world.

Yet they're releasing a console that focuses on HDR/UHD TVs......

 

[DrBretto]

Who wins Superbowl 2017?

Pats. Come on now.

 

[Jack The Nipper]

Very well said. BOM also doesn't typically include R&D, e.g. Sony spent 100's of millions in R&D on the Cell which won't be reflected in the component cost breakdown done by a 3rd party.

it's terrible and all his points make no sense, he is just making points to make points

so the ps4 has no disc drive?? no shipement of a ps4 drive? blah blah all his points are mute as they all apply to the drive they do have. IT's still a low cost that they wanted as profit. There will be a time when a friend or someone brings over that 4k disc cause hey I know you got the ps4 pro.

It should have been included in my opinion but it isn't a deal breaker for me at all.

 

[thatJohann]

I'll be saving the $400 on not buying one, I hope the math works out for Sony

Oh man this made me laugh. Great first reply.

 

[Z_Y]

Good for you but the math has been working out for them real good this generation and it will continue to do so.

Well then...that's all that matters for us consumers....their bottom line.

 

[Gunztrix]

Overreaction is insane.

 

[brickarts295]

People seem to forget, last gen Sony was aiming for an all out media machine. This generation Sony is aiming more so to be a game console first and foremost, not a media machine. Its why they never even released an official blu-ray remote control...and not releasing UHD blu-ray either. They are aiming to make it an affordable game console first and foremost, not bleeding (losing money) just to include a drive most will not use.

This should have been the first sign...

 

[Angel_DvA]

I'll be saving the $400 on not buying one, I hope the math works out for Sony

Damnnnnnnnn, Savage.

 

[Sanctuary]

Hashtag makes no sense since "for the players" still applies as watching films has nothing to do with playing games.

Is this going to be the new Sony apologist meme? Does having a UHD magically make the system less about playing games somehow? Does having a Blu-ray player somehow make it more about playing games and less about watching Blu-ray discs? Plus, if it was 100% about gaming, they wouldn't have mentioned Netflix and other sources to view 4K content now would they?

Give me a break.

yes, they care about us players! now i have to buy a separate machine to watch UHD movies, just think of the savings!

Exactly!

First Sony 4K UHD player not likely until 2017

 

[sajj316]

So UHD Blu-ray support can't be patched? Thought I saw an article saying it's technically possible.

 

[Sanctuary]

So UHD Blu-ray support can't be patched? Thought I saw an article saying it's technically possible.

Considering it's different hardware, no.

 

[Marty Chinn]

So UHD Blu-ray support can't be patched? Thought I saw an article saying it's technically possible.

That was some guy's pure speculation without any basis. We need to stop quoting that article. It's pure crap.

 

[sajj316]

That was some guy's pure speculation without any basis. We need to stop quoting that article. It's pure crap.

Fair enough

 

[Pryce]

Well they lost $400 from me.

 

[KC-Slater]

You can't easily rent movies on physical media anymore in many (most?) regions. Are there that many people buying physical media that warrants Sony installing the necessary hardware in every PS4 Pro?

The way consumers watch movies/TV has shifted. I may be alone here, but I feel like popping in a disc to watch a movie has been pushed to a fringe audience of cinephiles, hoarders, those without access to high speed internet, and parents with small children.

 

[FaytesEnd]

Didn't alter my decision, almost everything I watch is via streaming. Who even buys discs anymore? They're so expensive.

 

[BigEmil]

This was the main reason I'm not buying PS4 Pro.

Gonna just stick with the PS4 Slim for the rest of this generation until the PS5/whatever console that's next

 

[Rizific]

Instead of $400 going to Sony, I'll be giving ms $300 for a xb1s for the 4k bd player. Which is a shame because as a game console the xb1s is almost next to useless because of my pc. Would have really preferred to have a ps4 with 4k bd player so I could also play the Sony exclusives. Oh well, lost sale from me.

 

[Valonquar]

Just hold out for the PS4 Pro Plus Ultra

 

[digitalrelic]

Well they lost $400 from me.

Me as well. I'm enjoying my new Xbox One S.

 

[Occam]

During the Ken Kutaragi era they didn't care about saving $15.

The Blu Ray drive of PS3 cost around $150-200 at launch.

 

[scitek]

My Xbox One S has one, and if that didn't have one, I would've just gotten a standalone player. It's not a deal-breaker, but it just seems like a silly move.

 

[neorej]

Yet they're releasing a console that focuses on HDR/UHD TVs......

But those people have zero interest in watching movies in the highest possible quality possible!

 

[TheYanger]

People really got to stop using BOM or Bill Of Material for the actual final price of product. Have to factor in shipment of the parts to be put together, labor for putting together, and cost of inspections. Using BOM to say a certain or any company is cheap is not painting the whole picture in manufacturing.

Here's a simple example the BOM for making certain parts from plastic lets say a generic material is from ABS Lustran (which is what a certain company I know of use) is roughly a few cents per pound. 1 part ways less than a pound after machine make the part. so is that part still only should be a few cents because thats what the BOM says. Factor in machine time, labor time, pressure drying material time, qaulity assurance, and many more and that BOM that was a few cents per pound is now 5 to 10 dollars and thats just for one piece. This is not factoring everything else.

Basically using BOM to gauge a price of a part to go into another part is not very good. People dont work for free, machines need power to run, quality personal dont work for free and these are the people that are no factor into the BOM. Usually if its an already made part thats need to be assemble. The cost of the parts goes up 50 to 100 pct before leaving manufacturing. At the end consumer the price goes up another 50 to 100 pct easily so that retailers and everyone in between get there cut.

It's a perfectly valid thing to use when you're comparing the drive they're already putting in vs putting in a slightly different drive. We're not talking about a bunch of additional costs by ADDING something, we're talking about something that is virtually identical and you're merely deciding to use the cheaper option. So, in situations like this, BOM is actually perfectly correct to use. You're just trying to obfuscate that to defend Sony here.

Shipments: they're already doing that.
Labor to put it together: They're already doing that.
Machine time, labor time, pressure drying material time, QA time, all of that is already factored into the 15 dollar difference since that's on the drive manufacturer not on Sony, but go ahead and pretend it's not.
The drive itself has no 'parts' cost to consider, BECAUSE THAT IS PART OF THE FIFTEEN SONY IS SPENDING. On Sony's end, as long as the drive is roughly the same size as what they're already putting in the machine (it is), there is literally no additional cost beyond the cost of the drive itself.

 

[DoomGaze]

I'll be saving the $400 on not buying one, I hope the math works out for Sony

Top kek

 

[SkylineRKR]

Its a silly move, but the rare occasion I watch a disc i use my stand alone. But I will likely never watch movies on disc again. Sold nearly everything.

 

[Jack cw]

Part of PS4 success was focus on gaming and that is what Sony does now with Pro. The overreaction here was pretty predictable but normal Blu Ray in a market with shrinking physical sales and DVD still having bigger marketshare than BD makes sense. There is no need for a Trojan Horse for a niche format that has the same perspective as 3D had a couple of years ago.

 

[alice_kiss_lara]

#4the players -- the Greedyness awaits

 

[AXE]

Yeah, well. I could've ponied $51 more for NOT to have to get yet another device. I'm a minimalist when it comes down to interior decoration.

Silly Sony.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Pretty sure the bom cost would be way less than a $15 difference. Probably talking a $1-5 difference.

 

[Mr Moose]

what about the future when games are put on UHD discs?

It's a PS4. PS4s can't read UHD discs, there will be no separate UHD disc for one version, they are the exact same discs/games on Pro as they are on the normal model, it's not a PS5.
Is it disappointing? Yes. (Not for me personally, I don't own a 4K TV or watch lots of blu-ray movies).

 

[family_guy]

People really got to stop using BOM or Bill Of Material for the actual final price of product. Have to factor in shipment of the parts to be put together, labor for putting together, and cost of inspections. Using BOM to say a certain or any company is cheap is not painting the whole picture in manufacturing.

Here's a simple example the BOM for making certain parts from plastic lets say a generic material is from ABS Lustran (which is what a certain company I know of use) is roughly a few cents per pound. 1 part ways less than a pound after machine make the part. so is that part still only should be a few cents because thats what the BOM says. Factor in machine time, labor time, pressure drying material time, qaulity assurance, and many more and that BOM that was a few cents per pound is now 5 to 10 dollars and thats just for one piece. This is not factoring everything else.

Basically using BOM to gauge a price of a part to go into another part is not very good. People dont work for free, machines need power to run, quality personal dont work for free and these are the people that are no factor into the BOM. Usually if its an already made part thats need to be assemble. The cost of the parts goes up 50 to 100 pct before leaving manufacturing. At the end consumer the price goes up another 50 to 100 pct easily so that retailers and everyone in between get there cut.

Who cares? If I'm employing someone $15 an hour to do a job, it doesn't become $30 an hour because they are working harder or have something new to do. Same thing with salaried employees. A Foxconn employee doesn't cost more just because they are assembling a PS4 Pro over a PS4. The expense to pay a truck driver to transport a PS4 Pro from the factory to Walmart is not any more than if it was a normal PS4. The variance is in the material cost.

 

[JadedWriter]

The Blu Ray drive of PS3 cost around $150-200 at launch.

This was the exact point I was trying to make...I hope.

 

[rockyt]

it's terrible and all his points make no sense, he is just making points to make points

so the ps4 has no disc drive?? no shipement of a ps4 drive? blah blah all his points are mute as they all apply to the drive they do have. IT's still a low cost that they wanted as profit. There will be a time when a friend or someone brings over that 4k disc cause hey I know you got the ps4 pro.

It should have been included in my opinion but it isn't a deal breaker for me at all.

I'm sorry but if you did not understand what I said and pointed than you probably have no experience or knowledge of how manufacturing works. I could come up other example of BOM prices like screen and so forth. A quick example. A screen BOM cost a certain company 10 dollars. After 2nd Op assembly the price goes up 15 dollars. Factor in the shipment of screen to the manufacturer 50 cent. Now it's 15.50 before leaving manufacturing. QA (quality) personal have to spend time testing an ensure product work say 1 dollar. Cost now 16.50. The rest of manufacturing needs to make money and other logistic and overhead cost. That 10 dollar screen now cost roughly 20 dollars after leaving manufacturing. That's with no profit to the company who is requesting it. At this point they lost money on the product. They tack on 5 dollars before going to retail to make a profit. So that part now cost 25 dollars. Don't forget everyone else needs to make money in between. So now that 10 dollar part is 30 dollars.

The more complicated and electronic components involve in putting together parts in manufacturing the more it's going to cost. Bad paets that dont work. Remember each parts get tested.

I'm just tired of people using BOM price to gauge final product price. Manufacturing does not work like that. BOM is another way at looking at the base price.

 

[Hockeymac18]

I don't know with 4k but 1080p streaming I'd nowhere close to Blu-ray.

Depends on the quality of your Internet connection and quality of the source. Additionally, streamed 4K content will usually be compressed during transmission, so it will not be quite as clear as media delivered from a physical disc.

Depends on a lot of things include the service and your TV. Vudu is usually the best youtube is normally the worst for me.

Overall it is worse. The difference between UHD streams and UHD BD is greater than the difference between 1080p streams and regular BD.

It depends on the source for sure, but I remember reading that Netflix's 4K content looks worse than 1080p Blu-Rays.

Thanks, guys. As I suspected, 4K streaming isn't really a replacement for 4K from an uncompressed source (UHD Blu-Ray) - but I wanted to hear from some people that have had experience with both.

It does seem like 4K streaming is kind of being pushed as an adequte replacement (just me?), and when I read that you only need a 25Mb/s connection, I got a bit suspicious of just how good the quality would be compared to a disc with the same content. I know that 1080p streamed content doesn't hold a candle to uncompressed 1080p Blu-Rays, so was wondering how the 4K streaming side fared by comparison. That's unfortunate that 4K streaming seems to be even more far from the uncompressed source than 1080p streaming is...


I don't have a 4K TV, so this doesn't really matter to me right now (and I'm glad the PS Pro looks to provide performance boosts for 1080p/sub 4K gaming)...but I am looking to upgrade to a 4K TV somewhat soon, so these kind of things are on my mind (at least, in the back of my mind).

 

[rockyt]

On a side note I do work with BOM and pricing related issues everyday. Anyway that's my 2 cents.

Just remember the price of BOM does not include Labor, machine time, QA, or anything else.

 

[vpance]

Pretty sure the bom cost would be way less than a $15 difference. Probably talking a $1-5 difference.

As far as I understand, there's a bunch of non-insignificant licensing fees they'd have to pay as well, despite being a member of the Bluray consortium.

 

[Mr.Fusion]

The only reason I still buy physical movies(blu-ray) is that for some reason the movie industry does not offer digital equivalents of blu-ray quality for download. Also the ability to buy movies on any digital service and have access to it on other services (Disney does do this thankfully). I can see for streaming reasons the bandwidth would be much greater than what is currently offered, but I don't understand why they don't offer an option for downloading full quality at least. Plus there's the issue of the US's terrible internet infrastructure and data caps.

Sony made it an easy choice for me, since I want the best quality available (UHD blu-ray).

 

[Cellbomber]

Overreaction is insane.

I'd bet most are probably from the many No Man's Sky threads and were eagerly awaiting the next controversy. Give it a few weeks and they will move on to the next topic to rage on. It's an endless cycle that doesn't represent the general public in anyway. The amount of regurgitated threads on the same controversy/hot topics recently seems redundant.

 

[test_account]

They likely would have made a saving costing them far less than $15 per unit based on order volumes. Economics. The more you buy the more you save.

Thats true. I'm not sure if the saving would be far less than $15 though, we dont know what estimates IHS goes by, if their $33.50 esitmate includes heavy discount already or not. But volume usually brings discount, that is true.

Pretty sure the bom cost would be way less than a $15 difference. Probably talking a $1-5 difference.

Just curious, what is this based on? IHS estimates $33.50 for the UHD drive and $18 for the standard drive. What is the $19 to $24 based on?

 

[rockyt]

Who cares? If I'm employing someone $15 an hour to do a job, it doesn't become $30 an hour because they are working harder or have something new to do. Same thing with salaried employees. A Foxconn employee doesn't cost more just because they are assembling a PS4 Pro over a PS4. The expense to pay a truck driver to transport a PS4 Pro from the factory to Walmart is not any more than if it was a normal PS4. The variance is in the material cost.

That's not the point. The BOM of the part is still 15 dollars. Your paying the employee 15 dollars and hr to put them together. That's time spent putting it together. The cost of labor. Than each parts needed to be tested to ensure compliance and they work. They do not get paid more to get the part put together. There are many more cost factor inplace afterward but to go into detail can get confusing.