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Inside Playstation 4 Pro: How sony made the first 4k games console

For those complaining
or trolling
about no native 4K, here's a nice quote from the Engadget article:

https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/20/ps4-pro-mark-cerny-interview-hardware/
He's not exaggerating here either. In a demo this week, he pulled up a scene in Days Gone on two separate Pros and 4K televisions, one of them natively rendered and the other checkerboard upscaled. The images were nearly indistinguishable: The native game was slightly more saturated and the textures in the grass were clearly resolved while the checkerboard grass shimmered slightly in the breeze. However, from three or four feet away, it was nigh impossible to see a difference.
 
This is an interesting point. I think most people would argue that the entire point of consoles is their simplicity as compared to PCs. You put in a game. It just works.

Offering what you've laid out above is certainly an option, but definitely pushes further from that simplistic ideal, and closer to the space PCs serve today. The same will go for the Scorpio. And it's not limited to just the base versus not idea; it's the same idea if I'm getting to pick between 4K/30 and 1080p60.

We seem to be headed for a very interesting time in gaming, that's for sure.

Well, would this be better:

By default settings, an unpatched base PS4 game will have the Pro automatically run on base mode. However, there is a setting toggle in the PS4 Pro's setting menu that 'with warning' allows you to run older games at the higher hardware configurations for Pro.

This way, those in the know are in the know, those that are ignorant about it won't even know it's an option to begin with. It's kind of like hiding "Insane" graphics settings in PC games.
 

Maztorre

Member
Why is it on Sony then and not the developer, if that's the "sane" approach? Regardless of knowing the exact roadmap, it was clear that future iterations of PS hardware from the PS4 onward weren't going to delve into more exotic architectures anymore and stick to the more off-the-shelf industry architecture, so why did Sony need to mandate anything about the software design that isn't mandated on the PC side where devs seem to figure it out perfectly well on their own?

On PC side a developer could release anything, including titles that never touch the GPU or do all kinds of "bad" practice. It's an open platform. Sony, however, are operating a closed platform, so they have the opportunity to mandate certain requirements as well as offer support for them in their abstraction layer. So for example, if they knew they were eventually going to offer a platform with an improved GPU or CPU, they could have required that developers do not tie their game logic to the fixed clock speed of the CPU as part of QA. This is already an obvious bad practice on other platforms these developers already support in 99% of cases anyway, so there would have been a minimal trade-off at the start for a big win later (when you can announce that all your titles get improved performance out of the box).

You are misunderstanding how PC's do forward compatibility. Back in the days of DOS, games wrote directly to the hardware and didn't take advantage of new hardware and would often break when new, faster CPU's or GPU's were used. I owned many, many DOS games that broke with new HW. Hence new hardware, often had a backwards compatibility mode.

Microsoft designed Windows to solve that problem by forcing games to use Windows API's (e.g., DirectX) that talk to a device driver that then talks to the hardware. With Windows, Half-Life 1 relies on DirectX and hardware device drivers in order to run at higher resolutions/framerates.

Consoles provide lower level hardware access than Windows and so will never have the same path for forward compatibility.

Modern consoles do the same kind of abstraction as Windows APIs do. They're just a lot more performant at it since they are designed around a specific use case. The jump from DOS -> Windows was a paradigm shift, whereas going from one fixed iteration of an AMD CPU+GPU to a better one shouldn't be causing any major pain in terms of forward compatibility - if the abstraction layer is designed with that in mind.

I should say that in terms of hardware Sony are doing almost everything right in terms of performance/cost - my only issue lies with them not accounting for it so well in software when they have explained that they were planning a hardware refresh since day one.
 

phansen

Neo Member
If i understand this article correctly, a game that is not quite hitting its 30/60 fps target on regular PS4 still won't hit it on the Pro without the developer patching it because Sony is afraid of... bugs?
 
info i miss from the article:TSMC 16nm or GF 14nm?, Onion bus speed increased?.Using Onion still decreases Garlic's graphics bus available?.
 
is the 16-32 thing really that simple? sound strange to me it can jump from 4.4 to 8 tf

GPUS in the current consoles process 32 bit variables at the same rate as 16bit so It never made sense to use 16bit even tho some tasks would be fine with that level of precision. With pro being able to process 16bit variables at wtice the speed tasks which can be programmed to use them will effectively double the flops, the question is what percentage of tasks can use them. Seeing as mobile graphics engines use 1/2 precision fine i guess a lot could be migrated. If we take 50% as a random figure for migration of tasks to 16bit then pro would perform equivelent to 6.2tf, 75% would be around 7.2tf and so on.
 
Was looking forward to this since the PlayStation Meeting. I always love when Cerny explains stuff, he goes all out in the details.
 

Frillen

Member
How easy is it to switch a PS4 console anyway? It's been a while since I've switched out a system. When you get the Pro can you just log in with your profile? If I want to sell my old PS4, should I delete everything on it, including the profile, and put every save file in the cloud? Anything else I should do?
 
Well, would this be better:

By default settings, an unpatched base PS4 game will have the Pro automatically run on base mode. However, there is a setting toggle in the PS4 Pro's setting menu that 'with warning' allows you to run older games at the higher hardware configurations for Pro.

This way, those in the know are in the know, those that are ignorant about it won't even know it's an option to begin with. It's kind of like hiding "Insane" graphics settings in PC games.

This is a great way to handle that scenario
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Great interview.

They are sticking to the current pace of generations, while offering great deal of nice new HW stuff in [optional] PS4 Pro. ID buffer sounds great.

How easy is it to switch a PS4 console anyway? It's been a while since I've switched out a system. When you get the Pro can you just log in with your profile? If I want to sell my old PS4, should I delete everything on it, including the profile, and put every save file in the cloud? Anything else I should do?

Yes you can log in into your own account on new consoles, all your purchases and cloud stuff carries on. You can physically backup data [settings, gallery, saves or game installs] to a USB drive, or even move directly data between two consoles using LAN cable [taking HDD from one PS4 to another can be done, but that will prompt you to format the drive!].

They made it easy to switch.
 

Curufinwe

Member
What I learned from this thread is how people just read the selected choice quotes the OP put up and not the actual article that is infinitely more descriptive. It would be better if the OP didn't put up choice quotes to promote people to actually read articles for once and give eurogamer credit for putting it together.

I understand The risks of bugs and such when forcing unpatched base ps4 games, but why not give us the choice. If it runs better with no issues. Great. If it runs buggy on pro mode then we the consumer can set the Pro to base mode.

Seriously. Just put the intro paragraph in the OP.
 
The Pro not giving you improvements in the current library except for specifically patched games makes it a poor upgrade proposition compared to the iterative upgrades you can do on a PC which does make all your games better. I guess this way they can continue to sell us 'HD remasters' of the same games we already paid for so that they actually take advantage of the hardware.
 

Jumeira

Banned
This is a great way to handle that scenario
What so great? Seems fairly rudimentary way to handle code on 2 different settings. V1 on old V2 on new hardware. What would be good is progressive enhancement, similar to how X1 BC games are handled, I was hoping something similar would take place here.

This option here is really the minimum id expect but not the preferred method.
 
If i understand this article correctly, a game that is not quite hitting its 30/60 fps target on regular PS4 still won't hit it on the Pro without the developer patching it because Sony is afraid of... bugs?

I'm sure those fears aren't completely unfounded, otherwise they wouldn't be taking the approach that they are. Cerny's....not exactly a dummy.
 

spwolf

Member
The Pro not giving you improvements in the current library except for specifically patched games makes it a poor upgrade proposition compared to the iterative upgrades you can do on a PC which does make all your games better. I guess this way they can continue to sell us 'HD remasters' of the same games we already paid for so that they actually take advantage of the hardware.

all Pro patches are free. And yes, it is similar to PC, so if next year you buy a Pro and upgrade from PS4, a lot of your games will already have Pro modes ready.

I cant wait to get this... especially since PES will support it via patch.
 
Additional 1GB of DDR3 RAM - used to swap out non-games apps (eg Netflix) from the 8GB of GDDR5

512MB available to developers for 4K render targets and framebuffers

Another 512MB utilised for handling a 4K version of the dynamic menu front-end

I like that idea a lot. With consoles having limited memory to do everything, I always wondered why no one has done this before, to take the load off certain OS features and leave more memory for the games. I know the Pro is not doing that completely here but its a step in the right direction.

A console with dedicated RAM for the OS and dedicated RAM for the games would be a great move for future consoles. PlayStaion and Xbox are more like PC's now, so having VRAM and System RAM wouldn't be totally unusual.
 
all Pro patches are free. And yes, it is similar to PC, so if next year you buy a Pro and upgrade from PS4, a lot of your games will already have Pro modes ready.

I cant wait to get this... especially since PES will support it via patch.

Bloodborne isn't getting one and thats a sony game. The Witcher 3 devs even said they are definitively not doing one and thats a huge release. So I don't think it's a given that many games will get substantial upgrades for the Pro.
 

ShutterMunster

Junior Member
I really wish we were getting 1080p high bitrate share capture capabilities with the Pro. I really don't want to bother with an Elgato. That would be a real Apple move by Sony, but who gives a damn. Adapt or die, Elgato.
 
Bloodborne isn't getting one and thats a sony game. The Witcher 3 devs even said they are definitively not doing one and thats a huge release. So I don't think it's a given that many games will get substantial upgrades for the Pro.

Games released prior to the Pro are not required to get a patch so.... I don't understand how you're coming to the conclusion that future titles will not receive patches when it is likely going to be required going forward
 

WarpathDC

Junior Member
I've preordered this but I really wanted bloodborne to run at 60fps, or at minimum a steady 30fps. It could kick down to base clocks during an invasion etc. This is so dumb. My XB1S's slightly boosted clocks have made a great impact in some games, and have not been buggy in the least. With Switch on the horizon and my 970s feeling aged for VR, I might cancel and just sell my gpus and get a 1080ti when it releases.
 
This is a really well designed mid-gen console that puts little to no burden on the devs and still gives a lot of boost to those who have a 4K-HDR tvs. Really great job Sony. I just want to look at how VR games look on this thing. If it is at least 20-30% cleaner I am gonna be jumping in for both sooner than later.
 

spwolf

Member
Bloodborne isn't getting one and thats a sony game. The Witcher 3 devs even said they are definitively not doing one and thats a huge release. So I don't think it's a given that many games will get substantial upgrades for the Pro.

a lot of old and all of the ones released from October will... so by this time next year, there will be few hundred. So if you were to upgrade next year, you would have few hundred titles to chose from.
 

OsirisBlack

Banned
A very good read the tidbit about Mass Effect Andromeda sounds like a very positive thing for pro moving forward if that becomes the norm.
 

Aceofspades

Banned
Bloodborne isn't getting one and thats a sony game. The Witcher 3 devs even said they are definitively not doing one and thats a huge release. So I don't think it's a given that many games will get substantial upgrades for the Pro.

PRO mode is MANDATORY going forward, older games need to be patched and are excluded from this rule. deadline for mandatory pro mode for all games rleased after october 2016.
 
Games released prior to the Pro are not required to get a patch so.... I don't understand how you're coming to the conclusion that future titles will not receive patches when it is likely going to be required going forward

I know, I'm talking about the older games for the standard PS4.. of course new games will be upgraded but there are already hundreds of games in the PS4 library that won't be.
 

score01

Member
It'll be interesting to see how they preserve backward compatibility given his comments about having to stick wish Jaguar for the Pro.

Maybe Jaguar will be cheap enough to include for a different role and hardware bc in a PS5? I think that's similar to how they did bc for ps1 in the ps2?
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
mrklaw said:
Wasn't that feature only a little boost though compared to something like the single pass stereo on pascal?
It's different from Nvidias approach. Anyway, optimal pixel distribution can more than double your efficiency in VR. Granted, you can redistribute resolution on older hw too, but it comes with tradeoffs elsewhere(CPU, vertex costs,bandwidth).

Maztorre said:
that developers do not tie their game logic to the fixed clock speed of the CPU as part of QA.
Nobody is actually doing that. The issues Cerny alludes to are usually accidental, and most mainstream sw is released full of hidden issues that can manifest even with smallest changes.
 

DBT85

Member
I liked how he talked about how easy it is to use the power on your game. Maybe the fear mongering that games won't use it might actually quieten down.
 
If i understand this article correctly, a game that is not quite hitting its 30/60 fps target on regular PS4 still won't hit it on the Pro without the developer patching it because Sony is afraid of... bugs?

Well if you don't mind playing the game at native 60FPS without drops on PS4 Pro but the game crashing on you every 5 seconds because the developer didn't test it out. Wouldn't you complain?
 

-hadouken

Member
All I want to know is if it can do Battlefield 1 on ultra at 1080p at a constant 60fps.

My biggest concern is that devs will just up the graphics, unlock the framerate and we'll get games that constantly vary between 30-60 fps.

Word. BF1 looks visually impressive on the current boxes, tho the chugging framerate really hinders my enjoyment. A steady 60FPS far more important than fauxK
 

Wollan

Member
For those complaining
or trolling
about no native 4K, here's a nice quote from the Engadget article: *Digital Foundry impressions & TV screen distance*
Microsoft have painted themselves into a corner by talking-up native 4K across the board when that advantage fades away at 3-4 feet:
Do you use the extra GPU resources to hit native yet largely indistinguishable visuals or do you lose face but utilize the hardware for more effective fx & results

a fraction of a percent cares
 

onQ123

Member
De-junior onQ. It was written.

CERNY FOR PRESIDENT. HE IS GOD

I never should have been juniored in the 1st place I was right about 4K gaming this generation & they Jr'ed me for making a few threads about it 4 years ago,


But it don't matter I seen how people act when they don't understand something so I don't plan to make anymore threads here anyway so I wear my Jr tag with pride


Unwisely? or maybe my threads are too wise for the people who post in them & they won't understand until a few years later.

it's a few years later maybe they understand now

4K Support : could it have a influence on which Next Gen Console you buy?

Could 4K take PC Gamers out of the Desk Space Ghetto & into the Comfy Couch Suburbs?
 
I read the answers after making the post, and I don't get it. The Xbox One S got no issues with its higher clockrate.



The fact is that the boost is there.

The Xbox One S increased the GPU clockrate from 853MHz to 914MHz not the CPU. So comparisons about the issue presented with CPU increased speed don't even apply.

The PS4pro 500MHz CPU increase, The GPU increased speed by 111MHz and has double the computational units and you are using the S which only increased speed of GPU alone by 61 MHz as a point of comparison?

You really don't see the issue with that?
 

Izuna

Banned

That's horrible, what a silly decision. For multiplayer parity reasons maybe? My goodness. So unpatched titles won't have any benefit ;(

@onQ123
... were you perma-juniored? damn
back in 2012 though, you could have just considered the PS4 Pro to have been PS5 tbh. You were way off.
 
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