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Inside Playstation 4 Pro: How sony made the first 4k games console
- Thread starter PackAPunchedMick
- Start date
LukasTaves
Member
It's cool to see how they can be smart to circumvent power limitations, and I totally agree with him that power is not the end goal, but rather what this power enables, but it seems ps4 pro is such a half assed upgrade on anything but raw gpu size that it's struggling to deliver even with all the clever tricks going on.
I though that all checkerboard rendered games were for sure rendering natively at 2x1080p, but as the article points out, turns out *most* aren't. They are below that target, being slightly upscaled to 1920*2160p and then checkerboarded to 4k.
Nice about the hardware buffer for tracking geometry and objects, though, seems like it's a requirement to make the upscale good look, having the titles rendering with amazing IQ at the native res to reduce the effects of the upscale.
But, I'm not expecting any native 4k games, except for games that ps4 itself had no trouble going well over 1080p
I though that all checkerboard rendered games were for sure rendering natively at 2x1080p, but as the article points out, turns out *most* aren't. They are below that target, being slightly upscaled to 1920*2160p and then checkerboarded to 4k.
Nice about the hardware buffer for tracking geometry and objects, though, seems like it's a requirement to make the upscale good look, having the titles rendering with amazing IQ at the native res to reduce the effects of the upscale.
But, I'm not expecting any native 4k games, except for games that ps4 itself had no trouble going well over 1080p
longdi
Banned
Job well done cerny to get the hype train going! Articles like this is what ps4 pro needs and cater to the target audience.
Im glad cerny has restated ps4pro is not going to blur the generation and sites are picking this up!
With regards to bc, ps1/2 used same cpu, so it is not a walk in the park even with the move to x86. However in the interview, cerny said that variable frame rate games could get the boost from the pro.
Im glad cerny has restated ps4pro is not going to blur the generation and sites are picking this up!
With regards to bc, ps1/2 used same cpu, so it is not a walk in the park even with the move to x86. However in the interview, cerny said that variable frame rate games could get the boost from the pro.
LelouchZero
Member
You'd be surprised. NBA 2K17 will output native 4K at 60 fps with HDR.
Edit: Not saying this will be very common either but its still impressive to see at all. I have high hopes for MLB the Show next year.
BONKERS
Member
Yes he's right/sarcasm, because when you take HDR out of the mix.
A fixed res display with an image that almost zero aliasing from good AA will look better than a fixed resolution display with upsampled lower resolution rendering with poor to mediocre AA and additional artifacts from CBR.
I don't know how, in any world you can argue against this.
Having seen, tested and played games on a 4k monitor upscaled and a 1080p display with great AA. 1080p looks better. And CBR is not going to help out with aliasing one bit.
This might not work if we were talking low resolution devices like a 960x540 display vs a 1920x1080 display because of 960x540's massively lower pixel count.
But we aren't. 1920x1080 has 2,073,600 pixels. More than enough, unless you are sitting super close to a huge display.(Or inches from a PC monitor) To deliver perfect image quality, as evidenced by dozens of CG movies and what is possible in current PC games.
Now, if we could get similar levels of IQ at 4k in real time as you can at 1080p. You wouldn't see me saying this stuff.
But it's next to impossible with current hardware. And will be that way for a long time to come.
Therefore, 1080p display with better AA>4k display output with sub native rendering with mediocre AA and CBR adding in additional artifacts.
And again, the entire point of PS4P isn't to get 4k for AAA games. It's to get better upsampling to 4k similar to what we have now for current consoles and 1080p output.
3200x1800 to 3840x2160 is equivalent to 1600x900 to 1920x1080 (1.2x1.2 factor). Using CBR improves over standard 2D upsampling, but also adds it's own aliasing like artifacts on top of it.
But as several shots of this showcase, like Infamous above. How incredibly rough this can look.
Compare the image quality of the released 4k FL screenshots
https://images.eurogamer.net/2015/articles//a/1/8/6/3/6/2/4/FirstLight_01.png
https://images.eurogamer.net/2015/articles//a/1/8/6/3/6/2/4/FirstLight_03.png
Compared to 1080p marketing shots(Which still have a tiny bit aliasing)
https://s.candybanana.com/images/84f2/infamous_first_light_16.jpg
https://s.candybanana.com/images/559d/infamous_first_light_9.jpg
onQ123 was right :O
A significant number of pro players on PC play on low settings so this part isn't true.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
I was thinking about this - they could certainly whitelist a bunch of existing titles that work well with a higher frequency CPU and GPU and achieve better performance. But they don't want to do that yet as that would dissuade developers who otherwise might be interested in doing a proper Pro patch. Once some time has passed and it becomes clear that no one will work on old games pro patches, I bet they will whitelist a bunch of them.
thelastword
Banned
Wouldn't that give BF4 players on Pro a slight advantage over vanilla players in MP? I'm sure there was a lot they considered. It's not like you can boost SP and not MP modes....
Other then the fact that it doesn't render anything at 4k...sure...
RedlineRonin
Member
Did you read the previous two posts before you quoted mine and/or the article?
I'm not saying what you're inferring. He initially said that they should just give people the option to toggle back and forth, and I was saying that you'd have potential to make you games "run buggy" as he stated which isn't ideal for the average user. He then made the post about it defaulting to base and you'd select with a warning or something you'd get decreased stability.
That is a great approach, given the idea he put forward.
I believe what you're referring to is that it's not great that the base games don't just run better on the better HW. Of course that's not great or preferred, but it's a limitation of the architecture that's clearly spelled out in the article.
visiblemode
Member
Yeah some awesome details about Polaris and even Pro specific features.
Silent-blades
Banned
Ok so I'm so confused lol. The pro will not help older games unless they are patched correct? Why is everyone now more hyphed about this? I am tired so bear with me.
Brad Grenz
Member
This is the kind of stupid stuff that got you juniored.
But it could & I wouldn't put it past some devs to do so on simple games
I don think so, or very little if anything. The game is suppose to run at 60, the hardware just struggles with it. So an additional 5-10 fps to keep it consistent shouldn't really give a huge advantage. You are just using the extra power to run the game at the framerate its suppose to. If you were to go from 30 to 60 in a multiplayer game I would agree its a big advantage.
On PC some are probably playing at 30 fps, some at 120. That is a huge advantage.
Netflix, YouTube, 4k bluray?
It can output 4K, no other current console does.
Nothing is stupid about that, also me getting juniored was about me making 4K threads 4 years ago.
I think the advantages can't be 30/60 splits. Same target framerate is probably enough for most developers to feel that it's level.
MisterCTwo
Member
Yep, my enjoyment of PSVR is making me want a PS4 Pro.
I don't know where to begin honestly. I've heard of wishful thinking... but this is something else
whats wishful thinking about it? its actually a 100% factual statement if you take it in the context in which it was said
tiredheadcrab
Member
8.4 TF? What? Can this system even handle the thermal and wattage output to handle that?
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
I believe it does. It can also render SOME games natively in 4K. Like, less complex games.
You'll never see an Uncharted rendering in 4K natively on it.
It is. MS would not be waiting a year and a half to go the half assed approach when they could do that right now.
i still don´t get it.
visiblemode
Member
It's a gpu "trick." A neat one, for sure. Basically getting more "bang for the buck" by being more efficient with the horsepower. I wonder how much TFLOP equivalent will show up in most real world applications. I doubt 8.4. Awesome, though. Can't wait for this machine!
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
Crazy, right?
vpance
Member
Imagine some artist who can paint a nicely detailed painting in X amount of time. This is FP32 4.2TF mode.
Then imagine the same artist forced to paint the same painting but with less care, cutting some corners here and there. You may or may not notice depending on which part you're looking at. It looks similar to the original but he took half the amount of time. This is 8.4TF FP16 mode.
Movies yes gaming not even close.
"One of the features appearing for the first time is the handling of 16-bit variables - it's possible to perform two 16-bit operations at a time instead of one 32-bit operation," he says, confirming what we learned during our visit to VooFoo Studios to check out Mantis Burn Racing. "In other words, at full floats, we have 4.2 teraflops. With half-floats, it's now double that, which is to say, 8.4 teraflops in 16-bit computation. This has the potential to radically increase performance."
Found this quote very interesting. This means that in reality Ps4pro's actual TFLOPS performance will be somewhere between 4.2 and 8.4, depending on how much is 16bit half-floats and how much is 32bit full-floats. In reality this Tflops number will be closer to 4.2, otherwise the visuals will take a big hit, but I think some effects do not need more than 16bit variables anyway. Every time the variables ends up with a result in 32bit that is equal in 16bit, power is wasted. I think this explains why Mark Cerny says there is more power under the hood than what the 4.2TFLOPS is suggesting.
Found this quote very interesting. This means that in reality Ps4pro's actual TFLOPS performance will be somewhere between 4.2 and 8.4, depending on how much is 16bit half-floats and how much is 32bit full-floats. In reality this Tflops number will be closer to 4.2, otherwise the visuals will take a big hit, but I think some effects do not need more than 16bit variables anyway. Every time the variables ends up with a result in 32bit that is equal in 16bit, power is wasted. I think this explains why Mark Cerny says there is more power under the hood than what the 4.2TFLOPS is suggesting.
If you do calculations using 16 bit (half precision) floating variables the GPU allows developers to do two operations in the same time it takes to do a single operation using a 32 bit (standard precision) variable. So if the Teraflops in standard precision are 4.2 you get 8.4 in half precision.
It's really nothing complicated. Same way usually if you use 64 bit precision the Teraflops would become 2.1
The point is when and where it's feasible for developers to use 16 bit precision to get more performance. Usually 32 bit is required for most tasks hence why 32 bit is the standard precision.
Damn you sure are a great mate, i understand now! holly sh**!
ShutterMunster
Junior Member
Just had the time to read the actual articleincredible reporting from DF.
They're doing a better job at selling the PS4 Pro than Sony is!
They're doing a better job at selling the PS4 Pro than Sony is!
Ricky Ricardo
Member
This sounds like the new HUMA angle
TLOU Remaster is at native 4K so there's no technical reason UC1-3 Remaster couldn't either.
UC4 OTOH...
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
But of course, they could also just as easily be at "12TF" right?
I kinda meant UC4 given it's a current gen game.
Its almost st as if you haven't read the article linked in the OP...
Exactly, 4K will only highlight just how terrible lack of AF is more than ever. Hopefully it'll be dealt with once and for all.
Unknown?
Member
Yeah not UC4 but it will be a heck of a lot better looking regardless.
CrispyBoar
Banned
Looks like the PS4 Pro is a worthy upgrade for those with PS4's after all.
It's especially fantastic for those like myself who doesn't own a PS4 yet.
It's especially fantastic for those like myself who doesn't own a PS4 yet.
Humdinger
Member
I think he's a too subdued to be a powerful presenter. I like his style personally, but it's not going to get anyone but engineers pumped up.
family_guy
Member
Well if you sell your current system, you're probably looking at only $200-250 to upgrade. That's less than the cost of a comparable graphics card and you get a larger hard drive and 1080p recording. Hopefully it's quieter than the original though.
thebigmachine
Member
Great article. I love when developers get into the nitty gritty of things. This makes it clear what they are putting into the Pro that's worth upgrading for. Nothing that Sony PR put out before had any of these details so you didn't know why you should be picking one of these up. Can't really put this into an easy to digest 30 second promo spot so I hope word of mouth makes up for it.
This could be a marginal performance increase for certain operations over FP32 though. It certainly doesn't mean "it's 8.4TF", in the sense that is 2.4TF higher than the Scorpio.
It's not 8.4TF in the sense that you go from 1.8TF to 8.4TF in this sense.
And the suggestion that MS is saying the Scorpio does 6TF at FP16 is the wishful thinking. That's extremely unlikely.