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New Pokémon Sun & Moon trailer revealing the final starter evolutions & more

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I mean multiple universes means everyone's happy. Now people can rest easy characters like Crystal aren't retconned out of existence and the original plans of Team Magma and Aqua still exist just not in the ORAS universe.

Like a lot of alternate universes in fiction, things are mostly the same except for a few minor things so it's totally plausible for Red, Wally, and Cynthia to be entities in multiple universes as notable figure in most fiction typically do when alternate universes get introduced. And I'd consider Zinnia as more than a "side character" story-specific events specifically are prevented because of her. She was so convinced that there's an alternate universe that she prevents a weapon that could plausibly destroy the alternate version. If it was just some side joke than a story beat wouldn't have been emphasized this.

multiverse existing "just cause" is a terrible thing in fiction because you got people who are unaccepting of things happening having comfort zones and pretty much puts every setting into some messy gunk rather than something consistent

and your reasoning for the multiverse is really bad too - what's the point of multiverses if they're all mostly the same anyway? even comics tried to shake things up, even the anime made the multiverse more different than "it's mostly the same anyway"

this is why things went to worse when Zinnia came by, especially when you consider that all of her shit are based on "children's bedtime stories", yet people eat up her words like truth, in the game that has the dex talking about how a kid becoming an Abra or how Cubone wears its mother's skull
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I wanna see this guy again

200px-Silver_PS2.png


This is literally the only picture of an older Silver on Google

 

kyo2004

Member
BTW anyone are considering that we have 3 different timelines?

1. RBY/GSC timeline (this two gens are a separate universe that can't communicate with the other gens until next year with Poketransporter)
2. FRLG/RSE -- XY timeline (The actual prime timeline)
3. ORAS Timeline
 

CazTGG

Member
Oh hey, we're guessing stats for the final starters? Might as well give it a go:

Decidueye
HP - 74
Attack - 111
Defense - 71
Special Attack - 72
Special Defense - 81
Speed - 121

Incineroar
HP - 85
Attack - 100
Defense - 84
Special Attack - 95
Special Defense - 78
Speed - 88

Primarina
HP - 96
Attack - 62
Defense - 101
Special Attack - 83
Special Defense - 127
Speed - 61
 

Atrarock

Member
I wanna see this guy again

200px-Silver_PS2.png


This is literally the only picture of an older Silver on Google
I want to see a fight between him and Hugh, they're extremely similar and total opposites, and wanted to get stronger for similar reasons. Or hell, have them tag team against YOU/ME/the whole forum.
 

Theorymon

Member
Speaking of stats, I did some HP base stat ranges based off of the most recent trailers. I'll go copy my Smogon post on it, since it might interest you guys!

Tapu stats (172 at level 60): 70-85

For the rest, lets look at 3 ranges.

Max IV max EVs - max IV - Minimum IV

Incineroar (158 at level 50): 51 - 83 - 98

Alolan Raichu (120 at level 50): 13 - 45 - 60 (note: last stat matches regular Raichu's base HP at 0 IVs)

Psychic Oriocorio (135 at level 50): 28 - 60 - 75

Charjabg (123 at level 37): 56 - 88 - 103

Bruxish (143 at level 50): 36 - 68 - 83

Alolan Ninetales (148 at level 50): 41 - 73 - 88 (note: the middle stat matches regular Ninetales's base HP at 31 IVs)

Alolan Exeggutor (202 at level 50): 95 - 127 - 142 (note: the first stat matches regular Exeggutor's base HP at 31 IVs and 252 EVs)

Other Alolan Exeggutor (234 at level 70): 63-95-110 (note: middle stat matches regular Exeggutor's base HP at 31 IVs)


Minior (148 at level 50): 41 - 73 - 88

Minior (142 at level 50): 35 - 68 - 83 (Maybe they used videos from different battles? Either that or the base HP went down a bit when it changed formes o_O)

Alolan Raticate (192 at level 70): 34 - 66 - 81

Most surprising thing there was Charjabug, that thing has a way bigger potential HP stat than I was expecting. Hopefully this means that Vikavolt isn't just some lame ass early bug since it also evolves to Vikavolt at level 40 (also hoping that this means that Eviolite Charjabug could be interesting in doubles with Eviolite because of Battery lol)

EDIT: added Alolan Raticate
 

PK Gaming

Member
Speaking of stats, I did some HP base stat ranges based off of the most recent trailers. I'll go copy my Smogon post on it, since it might interest you guys!

Alolan Raichu (120 at level 50): 13 - 45 - 60 (note: last stat matches regular Raichu's base HP at 0 IVs)

:( :( :(

Some things never change, lol

Alolan Exeggutor (202 at level 50): 95 - 127 - 142 (note: the first stat matches regular Exeggutor's base HP at 31 IVs and 252 EVs)

Damn, look at that HP stat. I'm glad we 100% know that Alolan's have the potential to get their stats changed at least.
 

Theorymon

Member
:( :( :(

Some things never change, lol



Damn, look at that HP stat. I'm glad we 100% know that Alolan's have the potential to get their stats changed at least.


Should note that another Smogon pal calculated Exeggutor based off the English trailer, and he got a range of 63-95-110. This sounds to me like it actually has the same base HP as regular Eggy, its just that one was EV trained in HP >_<

That being said, pretty sure the site has hinted at stat changes for mons like Alolan Sandslash, so I imagine they are coming, its just that for some reason, Gamefreak doesn't want to touch the HP stat. Maybe they can change formes then? Nah.....
 

Delio

Member
Speaking of stats, I did some HP base stat ranges based off of the most recent trailers. I'll go copy my Smogon post on it, since it might interest you guys!

Tapu stats (172 at level 60): 70-85

For the rest, lets look at 3 ranges.

Max IV max EVs - max IV - Minimum IV

Incineroar (158 at level 50): 51 - 83 - 98

Alolan Raichu (120 at level 50): 13 - 45 - 60 (note: last stat matches regular Raichu's base HP at 0 IVs)

Psychic Oriocorio (135 at level 50): 28 - 60 - 75

Charjabg (123 at level 37): 56 - 88 - 103

Bruxish (143 at level 50): 36 - 68 - 83

Alolan Ninetales (148 at level 50): 41 - 73 - 88 (note: the middle stat matches regular Ninetales's base HP at 31 IVs)

Alolan Exeggutor (202 at level 50): 95 - 127 - 142 (note: the first stat matches regular Exeggutor's base HP at 31 IVs and 252 EVs)

Other Alolan Exeggutor (234 at level 70): 63-95-110 (note: middle stat matches regular Exeggutor's base HP at 31 IVs)


Minior (148 at level 50): 41 - 73 - 88

Minior (142 at level 50): 35 - 68 - 83 (Maybe they used videos from different battles? Either that or the base HP went down a bit when it changed formes o_O)

Alolan Raticate (192 at level 70): 34 - 66 - 81

Most surprising thing there was Charjabug, that thing has a way bigger potential HP stat than I was expecting. Hopefully this means that Vikavolt isn't just some lame ass early bug since it also evolves to Vikavolt at level 40 (also hoping that this means that Eviolite Charjabug could be interesting in doubles with Eviolite because of Battery lol)

EDIT: added Alolan Raticate

That Charjabug Hp lord.
 
BTW anyone are considering that we have 3 different timelines?

1. RBY/GSC timeline (this two gens are a separate universe that can't communicate with the other gens until next year with Poketransporter)
2. FRLG/RSE -- XY timeline (The actual prime timeline)
3. ORAS Timeline

I don't think the intent with the alternate universe thing was ever to imply alternate timelines like Zelda. I think it was just a way to explain away differences in different versions, remakes, and even the differences in your own individual play through of the game. In one universe, the same events could happen with or without Mega Evolution. Maybe with or without Fairy or Dark or Steel types. In one universe they built a Battle Frontier in Johto, but in another they only built a Battle Tower. In one, you may be a Boy or you may be a Girl. The games aren't now set in a new timeline. EVERY game, every play through is an alternate universe or an alternate retelling of the same events, but no matter how many of the details change, the broad strokes of the story stay the same.

It's an elegant, albeit poorly worded explanation to a problem that never existed, that people have read further into than was probably ever intended.
 

Nightbird

Member
multiverse existing "just cause" is a terrible thing in fiction because you got people who are unaccepting of things happening having comfort zones and pretty much puts every setting into some messy gunk rather than something consistent

and your reasoning for the multiverse is really bad too - what's the point of multiverses if they're all mostly the same anyway? even comics tried to shake things up, even the anime made the multiverse more different than "it's mostly the same anyway"

this is why things went to worse when Zinnia came by, especially when you consider that all of her shit are based on "children's bedtime stories", yet people eat up her words like truth, in the game that has the dex talking about how a kid becoming an Abra or how Cubone wears its mother's skull

The Multiverse thing being implemented with bad writing shouldn't be the reason for dismissing it. Even if it was badly written, it's part of the lore now.

Where do we go from here on out if the only things that we accept as worldbulding are the things that pass an vague, non-specific bar of writing?

I don't know who wrote the story for ORAS, but that person decided to introduce Multiverses to the franchise, and to do so trough Zinnia. We can complain all we want about how this was a wasted potential, how they could have done so much more with that idea, but fact is it's there. Maybe, but just maybe, they will continue to build on this in the future, but as where we are right now, it's a thing that exists.

I was on board with seeing the Pokédex as non-canon because the thing contradicts itself just way too much, too often.

However, the Multiverse stuff comes from in-game dialouge. And if we start doubting that too instead of just accepting it as bad writing (not that Pokémon was known for superb writing in the first place), well what do we have left then? the notes/books? But that was dodgy stuff like the Sinnoh Folklore which has pokémon turning into humans, just like the pokédex, so is this also something we shouldn't consider part of the lore?

So you see, when we start dismissing stuff from the game just because we don't like them, we would go down a road where at the end nothing would be considered canon/part of the lore.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
The Multiverse thing being implemented with bad writing shouldn't be the reason for dismissing it. Even if it was badly written, it's part of the lore now.

Where do we go from here on out if the only things that we accept as worldbulding are the things that pass an vague, non-specific bar of writing?

I don't know who wrote the story for ORAS, but that person decided to introduce Multiverses to the franchise, and to do so trough Zinnia. We can complain all we want about how this was a wasted potential, how they could have done so much more with that idea, but fact is it's there. Maybe, but just maybe, they will continue to build on this in the future, but as where we are right now, it's a thing that exists.

I was on board with seeing the Pokédex as non-canon because the thing contradicts itself just way too much, too often.

However, the Multiverse stuff comes from in-game dialouge. And if we start doubting that too instead of just accepting it as bad writing (not that Pokémon was known for superb writing in the first place), well what do we have left then? the notes/books? But that was dodgy stuff like the Sinnoh Folklore which has pokémon turning into humans, just like the pokédex, so is this also something we shouldn't consider part of the lore?

So you see, when we start dismissing stuff from the game just because we don't like them, we would go down a road where at the end nothing would be considered canon/part of the lore.

I'm talking on the "you can't just have the cake and eat it too" part. Like people can't just dismiss dex entries but then swallow Zinnia's garbage.

At least she gets her comeuppance in the pokespe from what I heard.
 
I think this is the first time in a while I want two starters on my team. Litten3 has really grown on me.

Also I always go for naming themes on play throughs.

Should I go...

Lord of the Rings
Disney
Food

Because Alolan Golem is "Gimli" all over.
 

Nightbird

Member
I'm talking on the "you can't just have the cake and eat it too" part. Like people can't just dismiss dex entries but then swallow Zinnia's garbage.

At least she gets her comeuppance in the pokespe from what I heard.

Now that i think about it even more, Multiverses would make the pokédex not contradict itself if we accept each playtrough as own entity lol.

About the last part, yeah she did. I read that part, that was quite something, even for Special.
 

Qurupeke

Member
Man, the Tapus are made for VGC. Sorry for the long post and any inaccuracies, I hope you'll find this post interesting!

So, they are pretty special. I'm not completely sure if they count as Legendary Pokemon or not, but based on the leaks, it seems like they're right after the Jangmo-o line on the Pokedex. I'm not certain if this is accurate, but in any case it's apparent that they're not some regular Pokemon. They're constantly referred to as deities and their descriptions certainly match to something legendary. My point is, they'll likely have a diverse movepool and some very good stats, assuming they're pseudo or something like the trios we've met before (Legendary Birds, Dogs, Pixies etc.), and I'm 100% sure they won't get banned. A likely base stat total of 580 is great, especially in a format that won't allow Megas for some time.
The above is mostly hypothetical, but the real reason they stand out has already been confirmed. Really, really good type combinations and abilities. All of them share the secondary Fairy-type, undoubtedly one of the best types on the game, but their first types aren't bad either.

Code:
[B]Tapu Bulu (Grass/Fairy): [/B]
x4 Weak: Poison
x2 Weak: Fire, Ice, Flying, Steel
x0.5 Resists: Water, Electric, Grass, Fighting, Ground, Dark
Immunity: Dragon

[B]Tapu Lele (Psychic/Fairy): [/B]
x2 Weak: Poison, Ghost, Steel
x0.5 Resists: Psychic
x0.25 Resists: Fighting
Immunity: Dragon

[B]Tapu Fini (Water/Fairy):[/B]
x2 Weak: Electric, Grass, Poison
x0.5 Resists: Fire, Water, Ice, Fighting, Bug, Dark
Immunity: Dragon

[B]Tapu Koko (Electric/Fairy):[/B]
x2 Weak: Poison, Ground
x0.5 Resists: Electric, Flying, Fighting, Bug, Dark
Immunity: Dragon

As you can see they're pretty good types. Their major weakness seems to be poison, other than that it's quite balanced. Stuff like Dragon and Fighting, both of them are really common, just doesn't stand a chance. Water/Fairy is already known as a godlike combo that helped Pokemon like Azumarill ascend to glory, but Electric/Fairy is also really good that was wasted on Dedenne. The other two aren't particularly bad, but I see it as a step down compared to Koko's and Fini's typing. Bulu has quite a few weaknesses, but a significant number of resistances, while Lele gets normal damage from the majority of the types. Overall, really good types though and if a team has something to cover for the Poison weakness, I could even see teams with more than one of the Tapu.

For me though, their real strength is their abilities. All of them are variations of the same thing. They bring a Terrain for five turns when they enter the battle. First, five turns are plenty for the VGC format. Secondly, for people that aren't aware of Terrains, and I don't really blame them, they're a special room condition that changes the battlefield, similar to weather, though it doesn't count as a weather and it can be used along with it. Previously, they were locked on moves and, in addition, only a handful of Pokemon could use them, so they weren't really that popular. In Sun and Moon, they're the signature ability of the Tapus, that activates when they enter the battle, so there's not a turn that goes to waste and you can immediately take advantage of their effect. It has to be noted though that they effect only Pokemon on the ground, for better or worse.

Regarding their abilities, from the official site:

Tapu Bulu’s Ability is Grassy Surge, an Ability that no Pokémon has previously had. With Grassy Surge, the field will be turned into Grassy Terrain when Tapu Bulu appears in battle, boosting the power of any Grass-type moves used by Pokémon on the ground and restoring a bit of HP to them each turn. It also halves the damage taken from the moves Earthquake, Magnitude, and Bulldoze.

Tapu Lele’s Ability is Psychic Surge, an Ability that no Pokémon has previously had. With Psychic Surge, the field will be turned into Psychic Terrain when Tapu Lele appears in battle, boosting the power of any Psychic-type moves used by Pokémon on the ground and preventing them from being hit by priority moves.

Tapu Fini’s Ability is Misty Surge, an Ability that no Pokémon has previously had. With Misty Surge, the field will be turned into Misty Terrain when Tapu Fini appears in battle, halving the damage taken by Pokémon on the ground from Dragon-type moves and preventing them from being afflicted with status conditions or confusion.

Tapu Koko’s Ability is Electric Surge, an Ability never before seen in a Pokémon. Electric Surge fills the field around the Pokémon’s feet with electricity when it appears, raising the power of any Electric-type moves for Pokémon on the ground and preventing any Pokémon from falling asleep.

Individually, every ability is great and it can be used according to the team set up or the situation. Electric Terrain's second effect is a bit disappointing though, as Fini already covers that. Bulu certainly covers a lot of ground, as its ability heals, empowers Grass type moves and depowers one of the most overused moves, Earthquake. Lele's is also really interesting, seems like a neat counter to moves like Bullet Punch or even Talonflame.
I really like Fini's ability though, as it essentially means no Burn or Paralysis. For example, it seems to work decently with one of my favourites, Garchomp, which would get crippled by a Burn. In a normal scenario, if the opposing Pokemon is on the ground, the dragon attacks are a bit useless, but there's still its devastating Earthquake. On the other hand, if the Pokemon is in the air, Dragon moves or something like Rock Slide work good, as usually. And this is just an example off the top of my head, I'm sure other Pokemon can benefit more from it.

I should also mention that the Tapu have their own signature move too, Nature's Madness. Its type isn't confirmed as far as I know, but its effect is pretty standard, it reduces the opponent's HP by half. If the Tapu is primarily offensive this doesn't seem that great, but for something like Fini that will likely have a supporting role, this is a god send. Paired with the right Pokemon, this is actual very helpful. I suppose that Lele and maybe Bulu can also work as supporting Pokemon, but it's kind of baseless. In any case, it's not a bad move, but I'm sure their movepool will have a lot too offer anyway, so it might end up as a gimmick. There's also Aurora Veil, a Fairy type move that acts as a Reflect and a Barrier, it's not currently known which Pokemon can learn it, but if any of the Tapus can, it seals the deal.

Anyway, I hope I made it clear why Tapus have a lot of potential. Of course, I'm not taking into account a lot of factors, but I think I highlighted the basic on why I think they'll be very prominent. Tapus are a very interesting addition to the Pokemon Universe and they really seem to be exactly made for the VGC. Even if they're non breedable and catchable only once, the Hyper Training stuff that will be introduced in Sun/Moon, means that it's possible to make them perfect and that's very important for them to be viable. If weather conditions and Mega Pokemon were the face of the Gen V and VI competitive scene respectively, I think the Tapus and their Terrain abilities will be the face of Gen VII.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
What happens if it's Tapu vs Tapu though? How does it prioritize the abilities?

Usually abilities play out in order of speed, so you'd expect the slower Pokemon's ability to prevail.
 

UberTag

Member
Anyway, I hope I made it clear why Tapus have a lot of potential. Of course, I'm not taking into account a lot of factors, but I think I highlighted the basic on why I think they'll be very prominent. Tapus are a very interesting addition to the Pokemon Universe and they really seem to be exactly made for the VGC. Even if they're non breedable and catchable only once, the Hyper Training stuff that will be introduced in Sun/Moon, means that it's possible to make them perfect and that's very important for them to be viable.
Great post, Qurupeke.

Just to pick your brain a bit in terms of optimizing one's chances to land a competition-quality Tapu (assuming, as you did, that they are non-breedable and catchable only once), is the correct approach for these to build up an army of Abra w/ Synchronize for an array of desired natures on Island 1 (Melemele Island) and then soft-reset until one with the desired nature and optimal IVs has been captured?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Great post, Qurupeke.

Just to pick your brain a bit in terms of optimizing one's chances to land a competition-quality Tapu (assuming, as you did, that they are non-breedable and catchable only once), is the correct approach for these to build up an army of Abra w/ Synchronize for an array of desired natures on Island 1 (Melemele Island) and then soft-reset until one with the desired nature and optimal IVs has been captured?

With Super Training you won't need to worry about IVs; just nature. So Synchronize Abra should be sufficient, and then soft-reset. Shouldn't take long.

EDIT: Well, you might want to reset for a 0 ATK IV if they're Special-oriented or a 0 SPD IV if they're the same base speed as other Tapus and you want your terrain to prevail. But you won't have to worry about the rest.
 

UberTag

Member
With Super Training you won't need to worry about IVs; just nature. So Synchronize Abra should be sufficient, and then soft-reset. Shouldn't take long.
How does Super Training impact IVs?
I'm a scrub so I was under the impression training only allowed you to fine-tune EVs. Is this a new enhancement for Sun and Moon?
 

Qurupeke

Member
EDIT: Well, you might want to reset for a 0 ATK IV if they're Special-oriented or a 0 SPD IV if they're the same base speed as other Tapus and you want your terrain to prevail. But you won't have to worry about the rest.

I seriously hope there are IVs reducing Caps.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I seriously hope there are IVs reducing Caps.

Yeah, it'll still be a pain otherwise. Even if you ignore Hidden Power, it can still be useful to have 0 ATK and 0 SPD IVs to minimize Confusion damage and for Trick Room play/certain priorities. If you need a specific nature/0 ATK/0 SPD Pokemon, even with Synchronize you're still looking at 1 in 2048 from an encounter, which is a long time soft-resetting.

Sadly, I don't think this will happen. Gamefreak is so conservative with what they do with the series; it's always baby steps forward and sometimes they drop great ideas as soon as they've done them. It's just sad that Emerald still has the best battle frontier in the series, for example.
 

HawthorneKitty

Sgt. 2nd Class in the Creep Battalion, Waifu Wars
Made this for fun from all(?) trailers, got lazier as I went down (not putting/recognizing dupes because you can recolor any piece, formatting, girl with white hat alignment, etc.):
 
I don't think the intent with the alternate universe thing was ever to imply alternate timelines like Zelda. I think it was just a way to explain away differences in different versions, remakes, and even the differences in your own individual play through of the game. In one universe, the same events could happen with or without Mega Evolution. Maybe with or without Fairy or Dark or Steel types. In one universe they built a Battle Frontier in Johto, but in another they only built a Battle Tower. In one, you may be a Boy or you may be a Girl. The games aren't now set in a new timeline. EVERY game, every play through is an alternate universe or an alternate retelling of the same events, but no matter how many of the details change, the broad strokes of the story stay the same.

It's an elegant, albeit poorly worded explanation to a problem that never existed, that people have read further into than was probably ever intended.


This is correct.

And there is literally no in-game text in ORAS that leads to the conclusions that people have drawn. The "in game dialogue" confirms almost nothing. It's literally nothing more than bedtime stories or supposition or some shit. Really is about as substantial or canon as believing all Dex entries are 100% factual, which is generally believed not to be true.

Obviously there is a timeline that runs in the same universe for all gens because of the appearances in SM. And that's pretty much the only one that matters.
 
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