Your understanding of history is less than pedestrian.
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The influx of moderates telling us to tolerate sexism, xenophobia, and racism all day
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
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Zen_Arcade
Banned
Racism and sexism are very much opinions. They're when someone thinks themselves superior or more deserving because of their gender or race. That ends up manifesting itself into terrible decisions that effect people, but Donald Trump saying that Mexicans are rapists and criminals is an opinion. A horrible racist opinion, but still an opinion. Everything bad that comes from racism comes because someone holds the opinion that they're better than someone else because of the color of their skin.
My whole point about Obama is that by the logic people use against Trump supporters you don't need to defend him to support it. You supported it by re electing him. There have been plenty of people today who said they voted for Trump other than reasons outside of racial issues and they are brushed aside and discounted because you and people like you have a one track mind.
And for fucks sake learn to read. I have not once defended or ignored Trumps bigotry. The fact that you think that me saying that people voted for a candidate because they thought he could help them in ways unrelated to his bigoted thoughts isn't me ignoring or defending them. At worst it means that the people who voted for him ignored it to make sure they personally could fix their terrible situation. But for Christ's sake, learn what nuance is and learn the difference between someone defending something and explaining to you how everything might not be as black and white as you think it is.
the_sun_king
Member
It really is simultaneously amazing, and not, at how relevant this is. The white moderate is dangerous. This is the irrefutable proof.
Already Torn
Banned
Basically the point where minorities start outnumbering white people in southern states can't come fast enough. It's a shame the planet with be dead by then and millions of lives will be ruined.
Lumination
'enry 'ollins
No one's asking for tolerance. No one's telling you to pat Joe on the head. We're asking that you stop for a second and put yourself in his shoes. Talk to him like a human being, not a raving white trash monster.
This isn't passivity. It's pragmatism. This is the only way to rally people back to our side. Because we sure as hell aren't importing enough liberals.
Pinko Marx
Banned
In this thread we have people throwing around the same sort of blind blanket statements that got us where we are today.
Baki
Member
That's not why the election was lost.
Complacency from Dem voters (15% didn't turn up), voter suppression and tbh...most importantly, a candidate that wasn't exciting enough.
Nothing to do with lack of empathy for the bigoted Trump voters.
"Hey, I know you're getting slaughtered, deported, vandalized, assualted, dehumanized and unable to get full rights as me. And I really feel for you, but if you just went a lil' nicer next time..."
Nope.
Nah.
Nuh-uh.
Fuck you.
If you honestly believe this or anythig resembling that, then fuck you. You were never a moderate or an "ally". You wanted to hop onto a wave until shit got too real for you. I'd rather lose 100 elections than wishy-washy shits like you on my side.
Nope.
Nah.
Nuh-uh.
Fuck you.
If you honestly believe this or anythig resembling that, then fuck you. You were never a moderate or an "ally". You wanted to hop onto a wave until shit got too real for you. I'd rather lose 100 elections than wishy-washy shits like you on my side.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Hillary Clinton won the popular vote.
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
Seriously. It seems that the only responsibility the people in this threat think they have is:
a) Don't call black people niggers
b) Don't call Hispanics spics
c) Don't call Asian people chinks/gooks
Here's your pat on the back folks. Congrats for dating an Asian girl in college, having a black friend and getting along with your Hispanic neighbour. Heck, here's a gold star for eating scharwma on Fridays with your bowling team.
That means fuck all now that you voted for a man that referred to Mexicans as rapists, question the integrity of a Hispanic judge based purely on his ethnicity and threw a dead US soldier under the bus because he was Muslim. Not to mention pussy grabbing gate and the numerous times he's been brought to court because of housing discrimination against African Americans.
What the fuck can possibly convince any of us that you aren't racist after voting for this man? Please, tell me how well meaning you were.
Hierophant
Banned
so the way to win elections is for minorities to clam up about any abuse and racism they face because that might rock the boat a bit too much? lol
Without white moderates the GOP will rule forever. Think man, think.
spatenfloot
Member
This is exactly the problem with many Democrats. Instead of having a legitimate conversation in which they attempt to persuade those with different viewpoints, they automatically condemn anyone who disagrees with them as a racist/sexist/homophobic bigot. This does not help gain support for their cause, it just drives them back into the arms of people like Trump.
You aren't paying attention or you don't care.
No it absolutely was building a dialogue with people who, for lack of a better way of putting it, hated black people.
The only way forward its getting white moderates on board. It probably sucks to think about, but it is the truth.
Already Torn
Banned
While we're at it all of those women probably shouldn't have come out against abuse tbh. It just made abusers want to vote for Trump more.
tomato shrub
Member
Yet again you're talking about something completely different than what the arguments you complain about are aiming at. The fact that so many women voted for Trump should tell you clearly that there reasons and problems not related to sexism that scared people away from ,,the system". It's still a stupid choice to vote for Trump, but labeling half the country sexist racists is unrealistic, hate fueling and playing into populists' hands.
It's funny too, I've seen quite a lot of people/channels which left extremists confidently labeled MRA whistlers (because they didn't like Ghostbusters or something) and yet the same ones have come out shocked by the voting results. Crazy how this world and its people apparently isn't only two clear-cut philosophies...
We live in the future. The Republicans have total control of the government. All our progress is about to be undone. And we're blaming minorities and liberals for not being tolerant enough of imbeciles and bigots, for not putting any faith into a system designed specifically to hold them down.
It's fucking lunacy.
Lumination
'enry 'ollins
I have in the past and I will continue to in the future. I will concede that the internet echo chambers causing this unprecedented polarization is making this harder than ever before.
Is it unfair that we minorities have to shoulder this burden? Hell yes. But I also understand that this is better than continuing what we have done this election season.
Fucking right. This is what it should mean to be a good citizen of the United States.
I guess we have to work to make that definition stick above others.
capitalCORN
Member
They're never going to change. People need to come to that conclusion. For all the shit people give social media. society already layers itself in bubbles. War isn't about destroying your opponent, it's about demoralizing them. It's time to take off the velvet glove, and strike with the dagger.
No, they aren't opinions. They are learned traits that lead to opinions.
I have read your posts just fine. You were busy blaming us for being upset, then looped in Obama, who had nothing to do with the discussion.
As I said already, these same people voted for a man who didn't give them solutions. He lied to them just as Republicans have been lying to them for decades, and they bought it again.
They bought his lies and his bigotry.
Would it be more clear if I said electoral popularity?
You can wait for demographics to win elections for you, but that'll take a few more decades and by that time the country, if not the world, would be tanked already.
So your choice is to compromise your morals for an immediate victory or hold out for a Pyrrhic one.
Monocle
Member
Well, look at the substance of the disagreement. When the issues we're disagreeing on are issues of identity, race, women's rights, and so on, and there's a side that "disagrees" about the validity of LGBT+ sexual identities, "disagrees" with minority rights and the basic human dignity of people different than themselves, then it's not name-calling or labeling to accurately identify the intolerance. It's simply affirming reality.
The fact that you're indulging that "two sides" narrative, after a long election with countless examples of the stark differences between bigots and the people who call out their intolerance, suggests you're not seeing the present culture war clearly. One side really does stand for bigotry. They've shown it so many times, so loudly and proudly, that you really must be blind to the plight of minorities and the look and sound of intolerance to miss it when it's right in front of your face.
Demoskinos
Member
I'm not going to tell people to be quiet or not speak out or protest or be angry. But man. Its...it's depressing that our country is as fractured as it is.
GalacticToast
Member
My state was blue. I voted for Clinton. I do care. I'm just not surprised if people react the way they do when they are labeled as racist, misogynistic, and xenophobic. I'm not arguing whether they are or they aren't. I'm just saying I get why people might have reacted the way they did.
Psychoward
Banned
So what are you arguing for exactly?
You started out seemingly advising us to stop calling them mean names for supporting a bigoted candidate but now you're saying we shouldn't actually coddle them.
What do you want us to do?
This all day.
"bububut if you call them racists/etc, you're being just as bad as the other side"
Yeah, no. If anything, this election has made it explicitly clear where people stand. If you want to think less of someone because of something as silly as sex, skin color, etc, why in the fuck should they address you with the curtsy you should have shown them?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I mean it's honestly not, them being racist/sexists/xenophobes is PART of the reason they voted for Trump, not the sole reason, but part of it, you can be a woman who is sexist, you can be a minority who is racist or xenophobic It's pretty goddamn clear cut regardless of the other reasons they voted for the worst candidate possible.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
Everybody doesn't hate minorities they are just putting themselves first above all else
the white moderate, the white middle class has more power than minorities. This is the truth. Outsiders are outsiders for a reason
the white moderate, the white middle class has more power than minorities. This is the truth. Outsiders are outsiders for a reason
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Definitely.
Like someone else said, Trump got more minority votes from the AA, Latino, and Asian communities than Romney.
More minorities were willing to vote for an openly racist candidate than one who dog whistled.
Just typing that out puts me in a bizarro world.
What exactly are you solving by chastising these people over how terrible they are? Lecturing these people over how terrible they are just lost you the election to the worst candidate since the ones that backed slavery, and yet you want to double down?
And if you think every single member of the Trump coalition believed the above then I'm not sure what to say.
Yep. The end justify the means, this is what this election taught the world.
Lunacy was a candidate listing large portions of this country as "deplorable", and expecting to win an election. It was about as tone-deaf as Mitt Romney$$.
There was plenty of faith in this system when it came to believing in Barack.
CrispyBoar
Banned
As a minority, I refuse to accept any of the above & to stand down.
Calling these people out didn't make them more deplorable. They already were.
It's as though you have no self-awareness.
gutter_trash
Banned
"moderates", is that what Americans call Right Wingers and Center-Right Wingers these days?
Okay have fun with that then.
Already Torn
Banned
I think the argument is that privledged people are petty and minorities have no chance unless they start making a larger part of the electorate or settle for coddling bullshit.
I am hardly in the arms of Trump and am quite scared, but yeah I have given up... Can't simmer this pot or turn it off. Fucking Gaf is lost and the country. Moderate pffft .. the fuck ever, keep on hating..
Desparadina
Member
I hope any minority reading this thread completely ignores the advice of any white moderate in here, I can hardly believe people actually think we should coddle bigots and tolerate their bigotry for votes. How much lower can white liberals really get in this election cycle I wonder.
I'm surprised. I'm genuinely surprised that people who don't wanna be labeled as bigots attempt to prove me wrong by voting for a bigot. Because it makes zero sense.
And they're not doing shit but telling minorities to coddle racists.
If they were actually practicing what they preach, then more racists might change their minds.
What do you think would have a better chance of changing a racists mind, a person of color or someone who looks like them?
There are far more supposed white moderates than there are minorities in this country. So why does the burden of responsibility fall on our shoulders?
A "moderate" seems to be a person who claims to have voted for Clinton, but defends Trump's bigotry.
GalacticToast
Member
I probably did a poor job of getting my point across. I'm not asking anyone to do anything. I was just trying to say that I understand why "moderates" might have voted for Trump. He promises them the world and the other side, rightfully, criticizes them for considering supporting him. I do not agree with it. But I get it.
We are not talking about what Trump is actually going to do, I agree he probably is going to do jack shit for them, absolutely. All these people saw were politicians ignoring them for years and they voted for Obama for 8 years now. If you look at the numbers from those areas she lost those voters Obama had gained. What did she do to get their votes, or did she just assume it? If you are desperate for someone to help you and they make any effort to appeal to you people will take it, thats human nature. Again i'd ask, have any of you been to that area recently? I was born and raised in that area and have family their, its a fucking hell hole right now.
Let's say for the sake of argument that every liberal just abandons Jesusland and move to the glorious blue blooded coasts (except PA, fuck them after this election), or Canada, or whatever. What happens? R holds the electoral majority in an iron grip. It could even be that the Midwest is just one long stretch of wasteland but as long as it's populated by those who vote right, the right will retain the government forever, no matter how many popular votes the left wins.
I don't want white moderates to be coddled but it's clear they have to be to make any gains.
I don't want white moderates to be coddled but it's clear they have to be to make any gains.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
At the end of the day, it boils down to this.
Q: Why would you vote for a man who clearly is racist, has many "issues" with women, (insert 1000 other negative traits).
A: Because he said he'll lower my taxes.
That's pretty much it? Fine.
You're not racist. You're not a misogynist. You're not a climate change denier, supporter of sexual assault or believer that LGBT should not have equal rights and what not. You dont believe in executing the families of terrorists, giving Japan nukes, deporting basically every Syrian refugee, banning all muslims.
Your're a squeaky clean, lovely person.
But why do I not get to point my finger at you for voting for a man who clearly represents and stands by those things?
Because you only cared about taxes? Or...what?
White supremacists are feeling like they're relevant now. That was BEFORE Trump even won. People WILL now face more racism in America. I've seen the result from Brexit.
RUDY GIULIANNI will likely be Attorney General........in a time where we are trying to sort out the way police treat minorities in America.
Supreme court justices will not be so favourable towards LGBT communities.
Trump can EASILY repeal executive order Obama made to allow immigrants to have genuine work and life prospects instead of hiding and taking exploitative under the table work.
You voted for a person who will do these things. Why can I not criticise you for it?
I just need to accept that you decided to fuck me over as long as you feel a guy who refuses to manufacture his goods in the USA is going to bring jobs back to the USA, because something something MLK wouldn't be getting all uppity like this?
This mindset of "hey, don't you dare look at me like that! I only like what he said about taxes/elites, that doesn't make me a racist, xenophobe, liar, con artist too!" is both confusing and infuriating.
Q: Why would you vote for a man who clearly is racist, has many "issues" with women, (insert 1000 other negative traits).
A: Because he said he'll lower my taxes.
That's pretty much it? Fine.
You're not racist. You're not a misogynist. You're not a climate change denier, supporter of sexual assault or believer that LGBT should not have equal rights and what not. You dont believe in executing the families of terrorists, giving Japan nukes, deporting basically every Syrian refugee, banning all muslims.
Your're a squeaky clean, lovely person.
But why do I not get to point my finger at you for voting for a man who clearly represents and stands by those things?
Because you only cared about taxes? Or...what?
White supremacists are feeling like they're relevant now. That was BEFORE Trump even won. People WILL now face more racism in America. I've seen the result from Brexit.
RUDY GIULIANNI will likely be Attorney General........in a time where we are trying to sort out the way police treat minorities in America.
Supreme court justices will not be so favourable towards LGBT communities.
Trump can EASILY repeal executive order Obama made to allow immigrants to have genuine work and life prospects instead of hiding and taking exploitative under the table work.
You voted for a person who will do these things. Why can I not criticise you for it?
I just need to accept that you decided to fuck me over as long as you feel a guy who refuses to manufacture his goods in the USA is going to bring jobs back to the USA, because something something MLK wouldn't be getting all uppity like this?
This mindset of "hey, don't you dare look at me like that! I only like what he said about taxes/elites, that doesn't make me a racist, xenophobe, liar, con artist too!" is both confusing and infuriating.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Not all of them were deplorable. This is the problem. Youre throwing a one size fits all cap onto what is now obviously a diverse group. This conversation needs more nuance than what we're giving it.
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